Fast 10 second pours despite extra fine grinder setting

[Alejandro]

Hi guys:

I can't produce a good pour in my new valentina levetta. The val is adjusted at .95 and 9 bar. All shots takes only 10 seconds. I adjusted the Macap for extra fine and use the Espro Tamper and the problem continue. How can I determine the problem?


thanks

ale

[kinkbmxco]

Are you using fresh beans?

[luca]

How much coffee are you dosing into the portafilter?

[Alejandro]

I use Lavazza Top Class and use this procedure:

1. Grind the coffee
2. Flush the val with the portafilter
3. Overfilled the basket
4. Leveling and Tamping

Thanks

Ale

[HB]

Fast pours with fine grind almost always mean stale coffee. Lavazza is roasted, warehoused, shipped by boat from Italy, warehoused a second time, then finally shipped to your local distributor. It is likely weeks post-roast and could be months. I recommended getting some freshly roasted coffee (3-4 days post-roast). Believe me, it will make a huge difference in the pour times and quality of your espresso. I sometimes refer to imported coffees as "boat beans" because of their long journey; the grind setting is 2-3 notches finer than fresh roasted coffees, similar to the grind setting for decaf coffees.

[another_jim]

Hi guys:

I can't produce a good pour in my new valentina levetta. The val is adjusted at .95 and 9 bar. All shots takes only 10 seconds. I adjusted the Macap for extra fine and use the Espro Tamper and the problem continue. How can I determine the problem?

This question myteriously keeps coming up. The answer is always the same. If the pour is 10 seconds, you are not grinding fine enough. If you were, the shot would take 30 seconds as it should.

Grinders are adjustable for a reason -- coffees and machines vary, with some needing much finer grinds than others. Set it so you get the right timing and flow characteristics on your pours; don't worry how it was set in the past, or how it will be set in the future. I have yet to see a coffee that an espresso grinder cannot grind fine enough to choke a shot.

[timo888]

I use Lavazza Top Class

USPS Priority (3-day) to Puerto Rico is about $6 for 2 pounds. This gives you access for a reasonable cost to the wares of any artisan roaster in the continental US who ships via USPS to Puerto Rico. There is no duty on goods shipped from the continental US, is that right?

Canned coffees are like those "immortal" Egyptian sorcerers in the movies. When they eventually lose their immortality after the hero succeeds in breaking the spell, they corrupt right before one's eyes. These coffees may stay fresh for a long time in their cans, but once exposed to air, they degrade rather quickly.

If you buy a darker style northern roast you should know that these coffees do very well with 5 or 6 days rest post-roast before you use them, so even a week-long journey would not have any adverse impact upon their shelf life.

Regards
Timo

[ladalet]

I used to use Lavazza Pienaroma and sometimes the Quality Oro, Creme E Gusto, Top Class, and Super Crema. Lavazza was my favorite coffee. From Italy it comes to the US importer is in NJ. From there it goes to distributors like 1st-line and whole latte love etc. Then it would take 4 to 7 days to get from the distributor to here in Spokane WA. It does not seem likely that the coffee can get to you much faster than 10 days (if it has not been sitting in a warehouse) to upwards of 20 days or more from the date of roast. With standard packaging I have found that do not like to purchase coffee more that 10 days after roast (ideally 3-4 days). About half of the time I would order Lavazza I could get decent shots for about 3 days and then the coffee was only good for drip. The other half of the time the bag would be puffy with CO2 and worthless for espresso. This would produce a 10 second shot right from opening a fresh bag. This why I began looking locally for a good coffee roster. Fortunately I was lucky enough to fine Doma locally. I have yet to try a coffee I like better for espresso. Even better yet, I buy green beens (single origin and blends) from Doma and roast them as I need them. This way I am totally in control of freshness--and roast.

[Alejandro]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered fresh coffee from Intelligentsia, Tres Santos and Black Cat.

My problem is I'm the only drinker coffee in my house and probably the beans going old before they are finished.

I have a doubt, when I visit a regular cafe for breakfast, their use regular old coffee, without leveling or tampering and put in the machine like Bezzera B2000. Always the coffee has a great crema and nice flavor, but when I use a HX is not possible w/out fresh coffee, good grinder, leveling, tamper, etc, Why?

Thanks again

Ale

[ladalet]

Another issue could be dull grinding burrs. How new is your grinder? How many pounds of coffee have gone through it. If the burrs or dull you will not be able to achieve an adequate espresso grind. Just a thought.

Best wishes,
Lance

[Alejandro]

The M4 is new

[timo888]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered fresh coffee from Intelligentsia, Tres Santos and Black Cat.

My problem is I'm the only drinker coffee in my house and probably the beans going old before they are finished.

I have a doubt, when I visit a regular cafe for breakfast, their use regular old coffee, without leveling or tampering and put in the machine like Bezzera B2000. Always the coffee has a great crema and nice flavor, but when I use a HX is not possible w/out fresh coffee, good grinder, leveling, tamper, etc, Why?

After I realized that preserving beans with CO2 and Nitrogen was going to be expensive, I started freezing them in the same valved Snapware container with good results. I put half the beans in the freezer as soon as I open a bag. There is a main page article here on H-B about freezing beans, by Ken Fox.

I use single-boiler lever machines, so I will let the HX enthusiasts handle the second part of your question.

Regards
Timo

[luca]

I have a doubt, when I visit a regular cafe for breakfast, their use regular old coffee, without leveling or tampering and put in the machine like Bezzera B2000. Always the coffee has a great crema and nice flavor, but when I use a HX is not possible w/out fresh coffee, good grinder, leveling, tamper, etc, Why?

Have you tried grinding your coffee finer yet?

The answer is probably that the coffee that you are getting isn't actually very good compared with what you will be making at home! Or maybe it is packed full of robusta or something.

Cheers,

Luca

[DaveC]

The M4 is new

Alejandro,

The Macap M4 is unusual in that you can actually have the top burr screwed on in such a way that areas which should slide past each other when you screw the burrs together....dont, so you can't screw the grinder down beyond a certain point and the burrs lock. Hence you think it's burr touching point, but it's not! So you back off and can't obtain a fine grind without the burrs touching. I'd make a bet here that it's grinding quite fast and filling your portafilter in 4-5 seconds.

Try removing the top burr carrier (just unscrew the whole carrier) and then reinserting it, bring the burrs together until they touch (grinder unplugged use finger to move burrs). Then back off 1/4 turn and work it coarser/finer from there. It should solve your problem as there is no coffee thats is so stale that the Macap can't grind fine enough to choke your machine! (you will know when it's about right, because to fill a single takes around 12 seconds and a double 24 secs or so).

The Macap has enough "slop" or movement in the mechanism to allow this to happen and I have experienced it on 2 Macaps, both relatively new! It's also the reason the Mazzers are so hard to adjust, the tolerances are very tight and some very strong springs to hold the whole burr assembly under compression. Stops vibration, unwanted burr movement etc.. and why they give a nice grind.

Good luck!

[cafeIKE]

The Macap M4 is unusual in that you can actually have the top burr screwed on in such a way that areas which should slide past each other when you screw the burrs together....dont, ...

Pardon me, sir, methinks thou dost err.

There is only ONE way for an M4 burr carrier to properly thread in. As there are ~2cm of ~1mm pitch threads, any misalignment will prevent the burr carrier from threading easily, which normally it does. If you've seen otherwise, then some ham-handed bozo has cross threaded the burr carriers. I can't imagine how much force would be required to get the burrs anywhere near close.

The Macap has enough "slop" or movement in the mechanism...

As far as slop, I've measured exactly 0.00025in or 2.5tenths or .00635mm lateral and vertical 'slop' on the M4 with a precision [±0.00002in] dial gauge. Just for grins, I shimmed out the slop, for ±0.00002. It made no difference what so ever to the espresso.

The Mazzer is a fine grinder but to date no one has conclusively shown me the springs do anything other than make it difficult to adjust.

[DaveC]

Just take cafeIKEs advice

[cafeIKE]

Was the symptom "No Coffee" exiting the chute?

MACAP tends to send the grinders out with the burrs all but touching. Backing the top burr out ¼ turn solves the issue.

If you ever run across this problem again, a series of photos would be most illuminating as I'm too simple to imagine the mechanics of what you describe.

[DCAD]

one thing to look for (and this may be a long shot) is a cracked and/or channeling puck. if you overdose, the top of the puck may contact screen as you lock in the PF. this can cause the puck to crack. if this is happening, no amount of grind will do much to slow your times. In this case a large dose/overdosing will actually cause brew times to decrease.

also it is possible that your tamping technique may be contributing to channeling. a bottomless PF is a great way to see what is going on for this possibility. (sorry but I don't know your skill level.)

i have a macap m4 stepless and do not have any problems with fineness of grind or the ability to vary grind (with the ensuing change in shot times). The only difficulties I have had have been my own dosing and tamping technique. It turns out these are much harder to master than I had originally anticipated. A badly channeling puck will have blond stuff gushing out all over the place in no time (again much easier to see exactly what is going on with a bottomless PF). I am down to occasional pinhole leaks, which is a vast improvement over where I was a month ago. I know I will get there but it takes a while...

[oofnik]

If you have a video cam, it might help to post a short flick of your entire technique in the 'Videos of espresso extractions' thread. I agree with Jim - I've never seen a coffee stale enough that a good grinder couldn't grind fine enough to choke a machine.
When I was starting out, I kept reading that espresso requires a 'fine' grind. Well, I didn't know if that meant it should feel like sugar granules or flour dust. So I tried many different things and after much wasted coffee and time and a lot of frustration, I've come to the conclusion that it's somewhere in between both but closer to the latter. What I may interpret as 'fine' may be understood as much coarser to someone else, so using words like fine or coarse don't really help when trying to talk about this stuff over internet forums. So when you say you set your grinder to fine, it's still probably not fine enough. Don't be scared to adjust it finer and finer until you hear a horrible screech - it's unmistakable, and it's your burrs eating each other, and it's really bad.

What you could try is going to your local coffee shop and asking them to grind you some coffee. It's going to go stale really quickly, but bring it home as fast as you can and try that. Compare the fineness to what you are producing at home. It's always helpful to have some sort of real world reference.

Forgot to mention something. It's interesting to note that as learning home baristas, we individually tend to question both our technique and our equipment. This inevitably leads to time spent on improved technique and money spent on better equipment. When it comes down to the individual, at least in my case, one tends to try to blame the equipment for repeated less-than-stellar results. Conversely, when questions are asked here on the forums, everyone else seems to think there is a problem with your technique. And it just so happens that everyone else is, more often than not, correct. There are of course exceptions, but I've always found it interesting that for most, it's a lot harder to believe that technique is at fault rather than the tools when it comes to self criticism, but the opposite is true when you are criticizing others. Just a thought.