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Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot

Beginner or pro barista, all are invited to share.

Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by Abe Carmeli on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:29 pm

Jim Schulman came to visit with me for a few days last week and when we were not busy gorging on some of the finest dishes New York has to offer, we managed to do a few informal experiments with pre-ground coffee. What prompted that line of investigation was Scott Rao's excellent book The Professional Barista's Handbook. In his book, Scott details the following experiment: He grounded freshly roasted coffee and let it sit for 12 hours in room temperature. He then brewed it and compared it to coffee brewed from freshly ground coffee. The 12 hours pre-ground coffee was better tasting and sweeter than the fresh ground batch. Scott speculated, that the result is also applicable to espresso brewing.

My only experience with pre-ground coffee was during the two days Jim and I spent with George Howell and Peter Lynagh at Terroir. There, a coffee that was pre-ground 2 weeks (!) ago was brewed and compared to a freshly ground brewed coffee. The purpose of that experiment was to compare properly stored green coffee (vac packed at origin) with badly stored green coffee (jute bag). The properly stored coffee pre-ground 2 weeks before brew beat the badly stored green freshly ground by a mile. However, that two week old batch was no match for a freshly ground sample of the same coffee.

First Experiment: Brewed Coffee

So, with that in mind, we designed two experiments: In the first one we essentially repeating Scott's experiment. We pre-ground a batch of 2 day old Geisha Esmeralda (Jim's roast) and waited 12 hours. We then brewed it in the Eva Solo (soak Pot) for four minutes at 198 f 8 oz water and 13.6 grams ground coffee. At the same time, we freshly ground the same coffee and brewed it side by side in another pot.

I invited my friend Lisa to join us in the blind tasting. In this experiment, Jim & I played the role of the somewhat refined coffee connoisseur, while Lisa played the role of the average Lisa.

The result was unanimous: The pre-ground coffee was sweeter, and as a whole better integrated. It still had all the high notes that I thought may get lost somewhat in 12 hours, and it was somewhat rounder.

Second Experiment: Espresso

In this experiment we used two different coffees. The first was a typical espresso blend we picked up from a coffee shop in the city. Barrington Espresso Blend, from Joe The Art of Coffee. That coffee was not more than 5 days from roast. The second was a single origin Jim roasted Worka - a relationship coffee from Sidamo sourced by Ric Rhinehardt and it was three days from roast. We pre-ground a shot 30 minutes before brewing it and compared it to a freshly ground shot of the same coffee. We chose 30 minutes due to the Italian conventional wisdom about storage of ground coffee in the doser. (The Italians pre-grind coffee to fill-up the doser and then dispense it per shot.)
Here we got split results:

The Barrington blend (15.5 grams 1.7 oz 198f 27 seconds): The 30 minutes pre-ground came on top. The shot was better integrated, rounder and a bit sweeter. There was no loss in flavor profile.

The single origin shot (14.5 grams 198f 1.5oz 26 seconds) was the reverse. The freshly ground came on top, it was richer and more complex; one of those shots I would give a 5 in a barista competition.

There was one area where the pre-ground shot was ugly on both experiments: The extraction, as viewed on a bottomless p/f. The pre-ground was uneven to the extreme, and yet, despite it, it tasted better with the Barrington blend.

Those results require more experimenting, with larger samples to get a clearer view of what's going on there. Scott believes that pre-grinding creates a more even distribution of CO2 in the coffee bed and thus more even extraction which results in a more balanced and sweeter cup.

The brewed coffee experiment has been repeated by others, and I hear they all came to the same result: pre-ground was better. The espresso on the other hand is very intriguing, and I think it is coffee dependant. This is only an uneducated guess. Time from grinding plays a bigger role in espresso, and I doubt a 12 hours pre-ground espresso will be a match for a freshly ground batch.

A tentative conclusion here would be that sharper coffees (overly acidic for example) will benefit from pre-grinding for espresso.

It is also important to note, that there was no difference in crema or the way the shot looked in the cup between the ground and pre-ground.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by RapidCoffee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:46 pm

That was the one big surprise for me in Scott's book. To say this rocks one foundation of my coffee universe is an understatement. I'd always taken grinding immediately before brewing as a given. Now I have to chew on the implications of pregrinding, and it's causing a certain amount of indigestion...

Regardless, thanks for replicating Scott's findings. Nice work!
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by hbuchtel on Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:50 am

Wow... thanks for the post!
Abe Carmeli wrote:The Barrington blend (15.5 grams 1.7 oz 198f 27 seconds): The 30 minutes pre-ground came on top. The shot was better integrated, rounder and a bit sweeter. There was no loss in flavor profile.

The single origin shot (14.5 grams 198f 1.5oz 26 seconds) was the reverse. The freshly ground came on top, it was richer and more complex; one of those shots I would give a 5 in a barista competition.

I'm a little confused here, were you saying that the pre-ground flowed at the exact same rate as the freshly-ground? (ie Xoz and Xseconds were the same for pre and fresh)

Another question, do any of you have an opinion about how many days (or what range of days) post-roast the blend and SO are best at?

Thanks, Henry
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by Jacob on Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:26 am

RapidCoffee wrote:Now I have to chew on the implications of pregrinding, and ...

Using the doser as a - well as a doser :shock: :lol:
Grinding the for the next session at the end of the previous and have a kitchen that always smells of fresh ground coffee :D

Am I still asleep, dreaming?
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by miKe mcKoffee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:09 am

Particularly with the 2 day post roast Gesha I wonder if the results of the 12hr ground being the better cup versus fresh ground was a result of relatively short rest. Be interesting to repeat at 6 or 7 days post roast, more where I find Esmerlda to be at it's balance peak.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by RapidCoffee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:57 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Particularly with the 2 day post roast Gesha I wonder if the results of the 12hr ground being the better cup versus fresh ground was a result of relatively short rest. Be interesting to repeat at 6 or 7 days post roast, more where I find Esmerlda to be at it's balance peak.

I'm sure this is a big part of the puzzle. I don't have Scott's book in front of me, but I believe he suggested CO2 degassing as the reason why pregrinding would be beneficial.

Espresso uses a finer grind than drip, and will probably not tolerate long pregrinding delays. I've seen huge changes, visually and taste-wise, in shots pulled with coffee that was ground a day before.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by Abe Carmeli on Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:58 am

hbuchtel wrote:Wow... thanks for the post!

I'm a little confused here, were you saying that the pre-ground flowed at the exact same rate as the freshly-ground? (ie Xoz and Xseconds were the same for pre and fresh)
.

On the Barrington it was the same, on the single origin it was slightly faster with the preground. (2 seconds)

Another question, do any of you have an opinion about how many days (or what range of days) post-roast the blend and SO are best at?


The Barrington is best on day 4-5. The single origin was best at day 3-4 in my opinion.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by another_jim on Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:45 am

hbuchtel wrote:I'm a little confused here, were you saying that the pre-ground flowed at the exact same rate as the freshly-ground? (ie Xoz and Xseconds were the same for pre and fresh)


We initially tried grinding a bit finer for the half hour wait shots, but it turned out to be unnecessary.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by hbuchtel on Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:17 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:On the Barrington it was the same, on the single origin it was slightly faster with the preground. (2 seconds)
another_jim wrote:We initially tried grinding a bit finer for the half hour wait shots, but it turned out to be unnecessary.

Yet another surprise...

Anybody know what beans are in the Barrington blend?

from barringtoncoffee.com wrote:We carefully roast and blend this coffee to bring out the finest qualities of espresso coffee--sweet caramel, chocolate, spice and hints of dried fruit. When properly extracted it yields spectacular crema and a long smooth finish. To attain this perfection, we source coffees that are naturally very low in acidity and extraordinarily high in body. When the otherwise subtle and delicate flavors of these coffees are concentrated through the high pressure extraction of an espresso machine the qualities are magnified to an essential level. Our proprietary blend includes aged and conditioned coffees from Asia and South America.


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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by cannonfodder on Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:58 am

Very interesting. This may be another dogma that is destine to fall. Just like freezing coffee, I blindly followed the masses assuming what was preached about freezing beans being bad as gospel. That dogma is now defunct and I now freeze beans to preserve freshness. Now preground coffee is better than fresh ground. What's next, dogs and cats living in harmony, peace in the middle east? Where will it all end. I will have to grind a couple shots worth of coffee tomorrow morning before I shower and try out some preground espresso.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by TimEggers on Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:26 am

cannonfodder wrote:Very interesting. This may be another dogma that is destine to fall. Just like freezing coffee, I blindly followed the masses assuming what was preached about freezing beans being bad as gospel. That dogma is now defunct and I now freeze beans to preserve freshness. Now preground coffee is better than fresh ground. What's next, dogs and cats living in harmony, peace in the middle east? Where will it all end. I will have to grind a couple shots worth of coffee tomorrow morning before I shower and try out some preground espresso.

I'll agree, I've been following this and it's a shocker. Now I suppose I can grind and relax making my coffee not worrying about the thirty seconds it takes me to brew... :roll:

Really though this has been a trip to read. I'll now return to the shadows to watch the discussion unfold further...
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by hbuchtel on Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:18 am

FWIW, I just tried this with a Colombian bean that is nearing the end of its life span, with the following results-

Both: 93C, 16g, 40 seconds (which took both of them into blond territory...)
30 minute ground: 15.5g in the cup, lots of spraying (bottomless pf), tasted awful.
'fresh' ground: 22g in the cup, decent pour, drinkable.

I'm looking forward to trying it again with a fresher bean, and maybe with the same bean just to double-check.

Henry

EDIT: I just noticed the two baskets I used are not the same... the one I used for the pre-ground has smaller holes and some are not stamped through... serves me right for being too eager to post results! ;)
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by another_jim on Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:55 pm

Getting away from "tastes better or worse," I'd like to comment on the effect of pre-grinding on the taste. After mulling it over a few days, I think there's another surprise here, the change is similar but not entirely the same as aging whole beans. Both pre-grinding and aging whole beans will take the harsh, sour or bitter edges off the flavor. But aging the bean for several days will typically reduce the acidity and increase the roast flavors; this wasn't happening with the old grinds.

But despite this difference on acidity, the mellowing effect is similar in both. So if you've roasted something that usually needs a week aging, and don't want to wait that long, grinding a half hour ahead may do the trick as well.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by kahvedelisi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:54 am

Reading this thread reminded me one of T.J's posts in HB ( this one ) May I suggest, the results of this test will be "the proof" of his words.

I used to roast, let beans rest/degas max for 12-24 hours then consume what's roasted the previous day. Because majority of coffee forums and sites recommended that time period for "best results" (since I don't know italian or german or dutch I'm following english speaking forums/sites) I was having problems with my crema, with taste, actually with everything! Coffee was good only when I'm about to finish roasted coffee at hand. I was so sure it's because of my machine, and that's till the end of 2007 when I first read T.J's post I decided to try. I would roast my beans, store them in one way valf zipped bags, and wait. So I did, with 1st bag I waited for 2 days then opened it..result was eeeh. then another bag waited for 3 days (hmm), then another for 4 days (nice), then 5 days (good!), 6 days (yess!) Day after day beans were getting better, we also elaborated this info at our turkish coffee forum with my friends, they reported the same thing. That's how I changed my degassing period & roasting schedule, now I'm roasting minimum 5 days prior to consuming.

Why I wrote all of this :D As you've already stated in one of the posts above, freshly roasted then ground coffee will keep degassing, and you'll be able to taste nice shots out of it, BUT there's a limit to degassing and you can't go beyond that limit. Roast today, grind it the day after, divide what's grinded into 6 batches, store 6 batches in 6 different one way valf bags (or whatever storing item you choose), but instead of 12 hours or 30 minutes this time you should wait for 1 day with one of those bags, then 2 days with another bag, then 3-4-5-6... I bet the taste will be acceptable (and somehow close to each other) with first 3 bags but last 3 bags will start showing signs of staling.

Personally I support "proper degassing" then grinding on demand. Proper degassing shouldn't be confused with "it's fresh yet, let it go stale". To be honest I'm a little worried about this issue. Hundreds, thousands of experienced/inexperienced people reading these forums and believe me not all of them aware some of these threads are "testing" threads. Once the word goes out "freshly roasted preground beans are acceptable" it will be impossible to stop, go back and defend cos eventually someone will trim "freshly roasted" part and it will be "preground beans are acceptable"

If you're bored of this long post and/or can't read/understand due to my poor writing skills, here is short version -->

T.J. was right! 8)
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by hbuchtel on Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:48 am

I hate turning on my grinder when friends are over 'cause it makes such a racket... if I can make good shots with 'pre' ground that would be great!

Today's experiment was not encouraging, but hopefully it'll be better with younger coffee...

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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by another_jim on Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:57 am

kahvedelisi wrote:To be honest I'm a little worried about this issue. Hundreds, thousands of experienced/inexperienced people reading these forums and believe me not all of them aware some of these threads are "testing" threads. Once the word goes out "freshly roasted preground beans are acceptable" it will be impossible to stop, go back and defend cos eventually someone will trim "freshly roasted" part and it will be "preground beans are acceptable"


If people drink what's acceptable, rather than what tastes good to them, they deserve what they get. This is especially true when someone tells them what tastes better and what tastes worse without further description.

The proviso I'm trying to add here is not about how long to let ground or whole beans stale (to call it either degassing or staling according to good/bad taste claims is more BS). Instead it is that this takes out the harsh edges. Last year's Esmeralda (at least my over casually stored lot) is not aging well, and is developing a tarry edge; the Barrington Bar Blend is angular all over when fresh ground. Staling only works when smoothing out a flawed coffee, and it comes at the cost of flavor clarity. However, since 99% of coffees are flawed in one way or another, and the minus of a flaw almost always trumps the plus of clarity, this can be a useful technique.
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by kahvedelisi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:24 pm

another_jim wrote:The proviso I'm trying to add here is not about how long to let ground or whole beans stale (to call it either degassing or staling according to good/bad taste claims is more BS). Instead it is that this takes out the harsh edges. Last year's Esmeralda (at least my over casually stored lot) is not aging well, and is developing a tarry edge; the Barrington Bar Blend is angular all over when fresh ground. Staling only works when smoothing out a flawed coffee, and it comes at the cost of flavor clarity. However, since 99% of coffees are flawed in one way or another, and the minus of a flaw almost always trumps the plus of clarity, this can be a useful technique.


I understand, I had when I read the whole thread first time already. But I guess due to my inserting "degassing" issue into my post you probably missed my point alltogether. Even if this technique works, it will be useful mainly for very fresh roasted coffee. What we will do then? Take that not so well aging esmeralda (or any other beans with this kind of problems) measure greens, roast small batches every 2-3 days and pre ground to get the desired taste? How we will schedule ourselves? How will I know if I'll want to drink coffee after 12 hours or 30min? Will we have enough time to enjoy coffee while we're trying to cure every flawed bean on the way by freshly roasting them then pre-grounding then storing those pre-grounds properly? Then there are those not so much flawed, aging well coffees.. We will build another schedule for those, different cups/bags, different storing conditions, a separate grinder? Even thinking of these makes me go "hmmm". That's why I'm simply saying T.J. was right, roast properly, store properly, let beans degas properly, do everything possible and if you still find the taste unacceptable then accept there's a problem with that coffee. That's what "I" will stick to, and I'm not saying do as I do, I'm saying I just don't understand the extra effort, why?

another_jim wrote:If people drink what's acceptable, rather than what tastes good to them, they deserve what they get. This is especially true when someone tells them what tastes better and what tastes worse without further description.


Mr. Schulman, it's undeniable that your posts are taken very seriously by readers (no disrespect to other posters, can't name all those invaluable members one by one here, there's just not enough space). When I say "people will/may follow" I'm not only referring to entry level enthusiasts, or curious readers, but also I'm talking about intermediate ones too. Have you recently take a look at Alexa world wide traffic ranks? It's now way beyond "If people drink what's acceptable, rather than what tastes good to them, they deserve what they get." I was not trying to imply anything or trying to prove your efforts wrong in any way. I just mentioned about my concern cos when there are too many people involved things get out of control easily. Here is a clear explanation of what I "actually" meant with my previous post -->

Foodandwine.com has a traffic rank of: 57,908 (at USA FW rank 10,708 / consider they are "professionals" )
Coffeegeek.com has a traffic rank of: 74,957 (at USA CG rank 20,622 )
Home-barista.com has a traffic rank of: 316,298 (at USA HB rank 155,561 / consider HB is only 3 years old but already 1/4 huge as CG)

I can't remember how many times I read about wine and robert parker in various coffee forums.. so lets look at there also --> Erobertparker.com has a traffic rank of: 78,226 (at USA RP rank 23,058 / wow! CG readers beat his! :lol: )
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by ntwkgestapo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:48 pm

While I haven't tried this for espresso (YET), I have, for the last couple of weeks, been grinding my drip coffee just before going to bed and then brewing it first thing in the morning. Gives about a 6-7 hour "rest" to the ground coffee. The reason I've been doing this is limited space in the kitchen (i.e. no room for the Solis 166 grinder) and way too much cranking for the Le'Lit to go from espresso to drip grinds... Sooo, the Solis is in the basement and I grind just before going to bed.

I WAS taking a shower and then going down to grind, but the coffee (some Larry's Beans Moka Java that was a bit past its prime for espresso) had a tendency to taste somewhat "blech" even over extracted a bit. When I started grinding the night before it tasted quite good! Grind setting is the same as it was before (it's my typical Solis drip setting, about the middle of the dial. Usually don't move more than one click off that for any drip).

I'll have to give the "grind 30 minutes before brewing" for espresso a try soon.... Hmmmm.

I've currently got some fairly fresh (about 7 days post roast) Central Coffee Guatemala in the Le'Lit... Time to 'speriment!
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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by hbuchtel on Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:58 am

I've been trying this for the last two weeks or so with two different SO coffees (no-name Colombian and Yunnan Simao, the only good greens I can regularly get). The roast age ranged from ~2-weeks (past prime) to just-roasted.

The first thing I noted is that the pre-ground flowed faster and had poor crema. I tried changing grind and dose to bring it into normal range- basically a finer grind and/or higher dose did the job. I only tasted the ones that looked fairly normal, and only noted whether they tasted better or worse then what I was expecting... in every case they tasted worse. Bitter and bland... I generally don't mind bitterness, but only if there is a strong positive flavor to balance it out, and this was missing.

I was ready to give this up until I re-read the suggestion for coarser grind and updosing in Marshal's post here ... now there is one more thing to try!

Anybody else been trying this out?

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Link to "Experiments with Preground Coffee for Espresso and a Brew Pot"by Alan Frew on Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:40 am

Sometimes it's good to have a "subtractive" palate (i.e. you taste something, think "it would be great without the <x> flavour, and then work at getting rid of the <x>). Carbonic acid (CO2 dissolved in water under pressure) has a distinctive taste, sharp, edgy in the middle palate, cardboard or baggy in the aftertaste. Think CONCENTRATED soda water (which, in my experience, coffee cuppers drink far too rarely).

Pregrinding and/or aging will reduce carbonic and other volatile acid flavours, including some grassy and sulfurous ones. The resultant brew may be less representative of the bean or blend, but can also be a better cup of coffee. In the end, that's the only thing that's important.

If you want to extend the experiment, try fresh roasted preground vs. aged wholebean; eventually it all tastes the same.

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