Experience great professional coffees before you start home roasting

[Marshall]

...split from Does HB really need a Home Roasting forum? by moderator...


I voted "no." This will come as no surprise to anyone who has read my responses to home roasting evangelists on alt.coffee.

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small. What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art. I will never forget the SCAA Homecoming a couple of years ago, where a new home roaster from San Diego with a Fresh Roast flew into a tizzy, because Marty Curtis dared suggest professionals with commercial equipment might do a better job of roasting.

You see it over and over again on alt.coffee, where some beginner asks where he can buy great coffee, and the missionaries immediately jump in to tell him he won't really experience good coffee until he home roasts.

I have the utmost respect for people like Ken Fox and Jim Schulman, who have devoted serious time, thought and money to putting out a professional-level roast. But, frankly, I am wary of anything that might encourage more novices to home roast before they experience great professional coffees.

O.K. Let the missiles fly!

[prof_stack]

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small. What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art. O.K. Let the missiles fly!

I'll just sling a few arrows.

That's a great story! I'm sure its true more than one realizes. (I've met one such person myself...) But some of those missionaries are themselves evolving as roasters, as students of the art.

If we focus on quality of roasts and what sort of profiles are needed, the quality of equipment and know-how will improve. That's a good thing.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small. What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art. I will never forget the SCAA Homecoming a couple of years ago, where a new home roaster from San Diego with a Fresh Roast flew into a tizzy, because Marty Curtis dared suggest professionals with commercial equipment might do a better job of roasting.

I don't necessarily disagree. However, given the total volume of Professionally roasted beans out there, I'd also wager the ratio of quality home roast to poor home roast may be about the same as quality Professional roast to poor Professional roast. If it's roasted, marketed and paid for by someone it's Professional, as is any canned or binned crap be it whole bean or pre-ground. Actually I take that back. Ratio for ratio I'd wager there's more Professional crap coffee than home roasted coffee, there's a hell of a lot of Folgers etc sold. Quality is quality whether artisan roasted at home or in a shop. And yes I've sampled numerous excellent artisan Professional AND home roast both SO and blends. Overall it's a tie IMO. Neither "camp" has an exclusive on the best greens nor care in roasting. Proof of course is in the cup. Just minutes ago pulled a 6 day rested shot of home roast of my current blend I'd put against any Professional artisan blend/roast. Not some willy nilly 4 minute roast, a carefully profiled roast of a carefully chosen blend of Arabica greens.

[farmroast]

I voted "no." This will come as no surprise to anyone who has read my responses to home roasting evangelists on alt.coffee.

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small. What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art.

O.K. Let the missiles fly!

Marshall I'm unarmed, no wmd
You are absolutely right that the number of semi-pro homeroasters is presently small. But because of roasting forums we are a growing force with some levels of experience to share with each other and the green newbies. There are many great pro roasters and a few come instantly to mind but I've found many have to roast a little darker for mass consumer preference than the roaster or I may have roasted for ourselves.
Ed

[howard seth]

In response to Marshalls post above.

A Home Roasting Forum is going to give vent to home roasting frustrations and failures, as well as triumphs. Getting a variety of information on home roasting processes out there- will allow more people to make informed decisions on whether to get into it or not -and will also likely lead to discussions - on the differences in quality between home roasted coffee -and the coffee one gets from pro roasters.

Dude. Power to the People.

Howard

[another_jim]

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small. What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art. I will never forget the SCAA Homecoming a couple of years ago, where a new home roaster from San Diego with a Fresh Roast flew into a tizzy, because Marty Curtis dared suggest professionals with commercial equipment might do a better job of roasting.

I think this is less true today than it was a while back. In the 1990s and early 2000s, there was a good deal of arrogance on alt.coffee when it came to both espresso and home roasting. Both have diminished considerably since the fanatic amateurs and dedicated pros have found each other. When I started out, around 2000, we amateurs simply didn't know about this group of pros, and we were fairly secure in our arrogance.

Obviously, a pro who's just as committed to quality will do better than an amateur. However, I'm not about to stop homeroasting. I'm going to take some flak for this, but I think committed amateurs keep the pros honest. We aren't enough to be a large market segment; but we are the largest segment of coffee talk, to which both pros and the wider buying public for quality coffee, who will browse the net for info, listen. I enjoy cooking and roasting coffee; one of the things I enjoy most is getting a dish or a shot where I'm scratching my head in admiration asking "how'd they do that." If our talk and arrogance disappeared from the net, one of the goads that is increasing quality would disappear too.

However, given the total volume of Professionally roasted beans out there, I'd also wager the ratio of quality home roast to poor home roast may be about the same as quality Professional roast to poor Professional roast.

There is a distinction between roasting and selecting coffees. One area where artisan specialty coffee roasters are dangerously arrogant is in their assumption that their roasts are technically better than the suppliers of mass market coffee. For mass roasters, it makes sense to pay megabucks in roasting technology and research if it allows them to get the same cup quality with coffees that cost a few pennies less per pound green. For instance, the last time I roasted Vietnamese Robusta, I got a cup that tasted like the water from a hot dog vendor's cart; the mass roasters get something from the same beans that tastes forgettably like generic coffee. This is quite an achievement of the roasting art.

It makes sense to assume all this investment creates better roasters than the standard shop drum; and it's important for us to keep an eye out on where this technology is going. I sometimes wonder how good COE coffee could taste if roasted on the gear that can put a semi-acceptable face on Vietnamese Robusta.

[espressoperson]

I sometimes wonder how good COE coffee could taste if roasted on the gear that can put a semi-acceptable face on Vietnamese Robusta.

And what could McDonald's do with Kobe beef? I admire your optimism but don't see how processes designed to cover up and hide defects could really help us improve the taste of COE coffee.

[prof_stack]

An analogy might be in order. Beer geeks know that Budweiser is the best selling beer in the world and also know it contains more rice than barley. It is thin of body, weak of flavor, lacking in hop bitterness, etc. It is also very well made with 12+ breweries making the same product in N America with very careful quality control. Bud could make beer as good as any coming from Germany or the Czech Republic, but don't. Too costly for the shareholders.

Big coffee has their market established and doesn't need to change (too much). Heck, it doesn't take too far out of Seattle to find eating establishments that just laugh if you ask for a latte.

So let's not worry about them and concentrate on learning how to roast better coffee!

Okay, what's a good starting pre-blend of beans for an espresso?

[mrgnomer]

Up in Canada here we like our beer and for a few years micro breweries have been doing better than the beer factories. In fact the beer factories are buying them out, I'd imagine, to increase their market share and add quality brands to their mass produced line up.

Looks like the same is true for coffee. I think as consumer's tastes become more discerning and developed the mass produced stuff will fall out of favour. Spending a little more for a much higher quality product is worth it. I'm sure there's home brewers who make a darn good beer too but it takes some know how, practice, decent equipment and good quality ingredients. Micro brewers, like micro roasters, would have more resources available to them to ensure better quality, control and consistency.

I think if a professional micro roaster has made the investment in equipment, experience and ingredients they should produce a product superior to an amateur's. Roasted coffee is pretty volatile, though, and the edge on freshness would go to the home roaster.

I don't know what most home roasters roast with but there's also equipment to consider. I'd imagine it's mostly fluid bed roasters. I've been roasting with a fluid bed iRoast2 for over a year now and the roasts are pretty good but the recent fresh local micro roasted beans I've tried are better. It seems that in the fluid bed vs. drum the drum is favoured.

With a home drum roast compared to a good commercial roast I personally couldn't say. I'd agree that with experience, pretty good equipment and ingredients home drum roast vs. commercial roast would be a draw.

In keeping with the intent of the post I'd agree that trying micro roasted beans is a good idea not just as a quality reference but to experience good coffee. Like espresso, it's hard to know what's good without tasting it and you could find out in a hit and miss way by your own hand but having it served to you by someone who knows what they're doing helps define good.

[prof_stack]

Yeah, I agree its good to calibrate one's taste buds with some REALLY good espresso blends at home. When I got my Sama I also received a 1/2# of espresso blend from The Good Coffee Company. They roast right on the premises, I think up to 50# at a time. Nice smelling place!

What I noticed with their espresso blend was the full palate of flavor that some of my home roasted SO beans lack. I've learned so much on this site recently and now want to jump in to pre-mixing the green beans for some attempts at a decent blend.

[lparsons21]

I agree with the premise, if we are talking about blends. I haven't mastered that particular art yet other than my accidental blends. Some of those have been tasty.

But for SOs I totally disagree. I like lighter roasts to emphasize the particular coffees nuances and characteristics over the roast flavor. I tend to roast to a lighter level than even Tom at Sweet Marias recommends. Usually I roast just into, through or barely finished 1st crack depending on bean.

The only thing I take further than that are the espresso blends, and those I take into but not through 2nd crack.

I have tried various roasters and find most of the ones I've tried roast darker than I care for. And there is the difficulty if you like lots of different kinds throughout a week. I drink at least 4 different coffees each week by roasting small amounts. Amounts that wouldn't make economic sense if I wanted them fresh in small quantities, shipping would push the price up to unacceptable levels.

So for variety and freshness, I don't think you can beat roasting your own. But you do have to be willing to fiddle until you find the roast that is the sweet spot for a particular bean or blend.

[pauljolly65]

I think if a professional micro roaster has made the investment in equipment, experience and ingredients they should produce a product superior to an amateur's. Roasted coffee is pretty volatile, though, and the edge on freshness would go to the home roaster.

I agree. There is a local roaster nearby with great equipment & they've been doing their thing for the last 7-10 years. However, their espresso is swill...in part b/c they start with bad beans. (I've bought greens from them before and had no luck getting an interesting shot out of them.) But roasters who have good equipment, whose experience is not measured merely in time but in attention to detail, and who start with the best available beans are far more likely to produce roasted coffee that is better than what I can make.

That said, I (and the rest of us homeroasters) have one advantage on all of them: we always know how fresh our coffees are, and that aspect can't be beat by an out-of-town roaster. I've had some good Espresso Forte from Peets that turned lame within five days. I've also had some excellent Hayes Valley roast from Blue Bottle that turned in about the same amount of time. Yet I avoid that problem with my coffee by roasting enough for a few days at a time. (That said, I've had the Hairbender at Ritual Coffee in SF and it was very good, while the espresso pulled at the Blue Bottle shack downtown is incomparable in my taste.)

My two cents...

Cheers,
Paul

[swines]

I voted "no." This will come as no surprise to anyone who has read my responses to home roasting evangelists on alt.coffee.

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small.

Based upon what statistics? If it's all about what you "feel" as opposed to facts, then certainly no one can argue with you. I only personally know two people who roast coffee at home - both are dedicated, have the equipment, and spend the time to learn how to roast properly.

More than that, what is your definition of doing it "right"? Why do you even care if someone wants to home roast? Some people bake, others garden, etc. - and some people like to roast coffee. Why is it any of your business what they do in their free time for enjoyment?

What I see over and over again are people whose only reference points have been mummified supermarket beans, then buy a little air roaster, enjoy their first fresh beans and conclude that their four-minute roasts are the pinnacle of the roasters' art.

You're awfully arrogant in your assumptions. I have several friends who go out of their way to purchase beans from two local coffee roasters. We give them home roasted coffee every so often, and by consensus, here's the facts bucko - our single origin roasted coffees hold up and compare equally to ANYTHING they get from the local roasters.

I will never forget the SCAA Homecoming a couple of years ago, where a new home roaster from San Diego with a Fresh Roast flew into a tizzy, because Marty Curtis dared suggest professionals with commercial equipment might do a better job of roasting.

They can also do a worse job of roasting. I've had really stinky coffee on more than one occasion from a "professional" roaster. Over roasted, dark, dripping with oil, etc. - yeah, that'll prove what you can do with commercial equipment - ruin large batches of beans faster. A stunning accomplishment by any measure.

You see it over and over again on alt.coffee, where some beginner asks where he can buy great coffee, and the missionaries immediately jump in to tell him he won't really experience good coffee until he home roasts.

And this makes all home roasting people over bearing jerks?

I have the utmost respect for people like Ken Fox and Jim Schulman, who have devoted serious time, thought and money to putting out a professional-level roast. But, frankly, I am wary of anything that might encourage more novices to home roast before they experience great professional coffees.

Yeah, novices at anything should quit first and not try something new...

[jrtatl]

Wow, it sounds like you don't even home roast, yet were deeply offended by Marshall's opinion and observation. For the love of God, please lighten up.

[HB]

Yeah, novices at anything should quit first and not try something new...

Not at all. Marshall said (emphasis added):

But, frankly, I am wary of anything that might encourage more novices to home roast before they experience great professional coffees.

Sounds like good advice to me.

[swines]

Wow, it sounds like you don't even home roast, yet were deeply offended by Marshall's opinion and observation. For the love of God, please lighten up.

I guess you missed all the really big smiley emoticons I wanted to put in my answer specifically for people like you. And, I do home roast so you're wrong in your assumption. In fact I've been to roasting schools and seminars, have used professional roasting equipment, and have done coffee profile development. The roaster I use gives me results pretty much equal to the larger equipment.

I just don't understand why someone home roasting should offend Marshall as much as it apparently does. Using the same logic, I guess you could make the case that no one should home brew beer until they've sampled every micro brewery available first because the micro brewers have better equipment and more experience.

If you're having fun, and enjoying good coffee - that's what counts. Not what I think or what Marshall thinks.

If buying coffee gets you the results you want that's okay by me. I prefer to roast my own as I think I have better choices available (there are currently 20 different coffees in my coffee storage) - just waiting for me to pick the one to roast next. While I don't have 20 year's experience - I will in another 15. But, I won't get there unless I roast my own coffee. I sample coffee whenever I travel. If a coffee is exceptionally good, I may purchase a 1/2 pound to take back so that I can look at the roast more carefully, cup it, and make notes on it. I regularly visit with a local roaster and sometimes bring him a roast of something he's never tried (Australian coffee for example).

What offended me in Marshall's post is his simplistic categorization of people who home roast. Yes, I find that as offensive as you have found my post. Lighten up? How about you taking your own advice?

[cafeIKE]

I voted "no." ....

I think the proportion of home roasters who really know how to roast and have the equipment, real estate and patience to do it right is quite small

Using that logic, we don't need H-B, CG, or a.c either.

The vast majority of espresso machine owners don't know sh!t from shinola

[Marshall]

Using that logic, we don't need H-B, CG, or a.c either.

There are already lots of home roasting forums and mailing lists. I thought putting another one here was just a distraction.

The vast majority of espresso machine owners don't know sh!t from shinola.

You said it, not me. But, for similar reasons, I am always urging people to calibrate their palates at a top notch (you can call them "third wave," if you like) coffee shop. I think way too many home baristas give up on truly great espresso and rely on milk drinks and americanos. If they spent a little time at a serious espresso bar, they would understand what the holy grail is.

People are always moaning about how far they live from a decent coffee bar and how the only "good espresso" within X miles is in their own kitchen. In point of fact, a lot of them only know their home brew is a lot better than the local commercial swill and have no idea how theirs compares to the very best. But, if you are serious about this art (and if you are reading this forum you are probably serious enough for your family and friends to think you have a screw loose), it is really worth a little pilgrimage.

[luca]

Hi guys,

I've got to say that I think that this thread is a bit all over the place. Somehow it seems to have become "home roasting VS professional roasting." I'm pretty sure that Marshall was actually trying to advocate a way of getting the most out of home roasting. To try to contribute something new to this thread, let me just point this out: (Good) Pro roasters talk to each other, send each other samples, buy their competition's coffee surreptitiously, go to seminars, etc. In other words, they learn from each other, both when they're just starting out and on a constant basis. So why wouldn't you want to do that if you were home roasting?

Cheers,

Luca

[SL28ave]

Perhaps in agreement with Marshall, I largely disagree with the often stated notion that home roasting is the way to go because it's fresher than professional roasts. I don't only disagree with this when the coffee drinker has a local roaster to get beans from. I think that many great (and essential in many cases) coffees will do just fine when shipped across the country.

Both home and professional roasting can be OK! Roasting is damn tough, though. And at times there are expressions of coffees that only pros will have.