Experience great professional coffees before you start home roasting - Page 2

[lparsons21]

Perhaps in agreement with Marshall, I largely disagree with the often stated notion that home roasting is the way to go because it's fresher than professional roasts. I don't only disagree with this when the coffee drinker has a local roaster to get beans from. I think that many great (and essential in many cases) coffees will do just fine when shipped across the country.

Both home and professional roasting can be OK! Roasting is damn tough, though. And at times there are expressions of coffees that only pros will have.

The problem with fresh roasted is not that you can't get it shipped fast enough cross country, you can't economically ship small quantities across country on an often basis. Home roasting gives me the flexibility to have a wide variety of greens to roast and taste at my leisure in the quantity that makes the most sense.

While there is a bit of fiddle factor involved, roasting just isn't difficult at all. A bit of experimenting, logging what you are doing and cleaning up is all that is involved.

I don't begrudge those that buy roasted coffee from excellent producers, why would you begrudge me doing the same thing on a do-it-yourself basis?

[SL28ave]

I don't begrudge those that buy roasted coffee from excellent producers, why would you begrudge me doing the same thing on a do-it-yourself basis?

I'm not begrudging you. It's just coffee and you can like whichever kind you'd like.

While there is a bit of fiddle factor involved, roasting just isn't difficult at all. A bit of experimenting, logging what you are doing and cleaning up is all that is involved.

We may be talking about coffee on different levels then. Roasting coffee the way I like is a royal headache. If the technology isn't there when tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars are dished out by people who literally think about roasts in their sleep, sorry if I'm pessimistic towards many home setups... I'd love to taste more home roasts, though. And I never said home roasting isn't great! (Did I?)

[another_jim]

Hi PeterL,

Before people jump in and criticize him, note that Terroir sells all their coffees green as well. I hope this becomes the norm with all the top roasters (Paradise, Metropolis, and Gilllies do this as well; Intelly does a bit, but should do more, Peter G, are you listening, hint hint)

Now the interesting part. Terroir stocks superlative beans and roasts them superlatively (they'll recall roasts that aren't!) However, on the whole, I prefer my more journeyman roasts of the same beans. I roast them a little slower, maybe 5F further, and get more sweetness and caramel relative to the origin flavors. Peter probably thinks my roasts are wimpy ("real men don't drink caramel"), but it's what I prefer.

Home roasting is a hobby; not some sort of oath never to drink professionally roasted coffee. Gaining skill depends on comparing ones own roasts to the same coffee roasted by pros and other amateurs willing to swap. If you do these comparisons, go to the trouble of learning a bit about cupping, home roasting will teach you more about coffee than anything else you can do (short of buying a finca)

[Rainman]

I'd have to agree with just about everything Marshall has stated. I started home roasting while still in college (about 20 yrs ago) using readily available equipment that my english comp professor suggested (the world famous popcorn popper.. can't remember which one, though). I had no idea what I was doing, but it sure beat the heck out of the pre-ground stuff I was buying in the store. I've had periods where I didn't roast at all, and just used locally roasted stuff (some new roasters appeared here and there in town) and occasionally ordered from Intelligentsia, Paradise and George Howell's place all the way across the country in Massachusetts.. (although since I've pursued building my green bean stash in ernest this past year, my home roasting has completely consumed me in terms of what I put through my equipment). I'll continue to sample from the pro's, just to provide a reality check, and I'd encourage most people to do the same. I'm certainly an amateur, but I think I get some really great tasting blends and SO's, and have lots of fun achieving that in the home environment-- it's also a whole lot more convenient than ordering everything online, which is what I'd have to do otherwise.. there's just no competition locally for what I get at home.

my $0.02/worth.

Ray

[pauljolly65]

You said it, not me. But, for similar reasons, I am always urging people to calibrate their palates at a top notch (you can call them "third wave," if you like) coffee shop. I think way too many home baristas give up on truly great espresso and rely on milk drinks and americanos...

if you are serious about this art (and if you are reading this forum you are probably serious enough for your family and friends to think you have a screw loose), it is really worth a little pilgrimage.

Amen to that! I had a great day in SF last month doing nothing but sampling espresso (OK, I confess: I also picked up a nasty Gibraltar addiction there, too). It was eye-opening to taste the flavors, aromas, and assorted nuances that varied so greatly from shop to shop. There were some which I could sip all day....

Haven't made it up to Seattle in the past 15 years, but I'd love to stop at Stumptown & miKe's on the way up, try Vivace, see if my old favorite (ETG in Fremont) is still around. Also love to hit Intelligentsia, but have no other reason to go to Chicago. And so on....just to continue to keep my palate sharp.

Paul

[espressoperson]

We may be talking about coffee on different levels then. Roasting coffee the way I like is a royal headache. If the technology isn't there when tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars are dished out by people who literally think about roasts in their sleep, sorry if I'm pessimistic towards many home setups... I'd love to taste more home roasts, though. And I never said home roasting isn't great! (Did I?)

So we do have something in common with professional roasters. Just like us homeroasters, you believe your roasts are better than ours even though you have no evidence or experience to back it up.

Maybe that's just part of the roasting experience; the wonderful feeling of accomplishment it gives us all - amateur and professional.

[mrgnomer]

One thing I just realized was when I started home roasting my only source for supposedly fresh beans were a few micro roasters who roasted more to supply small coffee houses than for retail. Their roasts were better than store-bought but more expensive.

The first time trying home roasting with an iRoast and an Harrar the roast beat everything I had up to then by miles. A really good, fresh professional roast would have probably put me in a delirious coma but the home roast was and is better than probably 95% of the commercial roasts out there.

[RapidCoffee]

I have the utmost respect for people like Ken Fox and Jim Schulman, who have devoted serious time, thought and money to putting out a professional-level roast. But, frankly, I am wary of anything that might encourage more novices to home roast before they experience great professional coffees.

Your point is well taken, but I think you're missing something fundamental. Most of us grew up seeing coffee as a prepackaged, preground commodity. If you have a love of coffee, your first home roast can be a revelation. That's why you see all the home roasting evangelists.

With simple inexpensive equipment and a modicum of skill, home roasting results can easily surpass the vast majority of roasted coffee sold in this country. That makes it an ideal hobby for the coffee lover.

We all have to start somewhere, and it's seldom going to be at the level of a Ken Fox or a Jim Schulman. In my case, I began with some green beans, an old popcorn popper, and a copy of Kenneth Davids' Home Coffee Roasting: Romance and Revival. That was probably the most important step I took on my journey into coffee and espresso. There is something amazing, magical, and unquantifiable about roasting your own coffee.

I would urge anyone with an interest in home roasting to give it a try, regardless of your expertise. This isn't an either-or situation. When I travel, I always make an effort to sample the best local espresso. Home roasting does not dissuade me from experiencing great professional coffees; it enhances the experience by giving me another basis for comparison.
________
John

[miKe mcKoffee]

Experience great professional coffees before you start home roasting

Ready-Aim-Fire!
or
Ready-Fire-Aim!

Different approaches both with Pros and Cons. While it's great to have a target sometimes it works just as well to just go for it and find the target along the way. Today it's much easier to get great professional coffees than it was just a few years ago. (In fact that is the why I started home roasting in the first place a short 6 years ago.)

Much can be learned from Professionals and from fellow home roasters. Personally I think I've learned as much or more from continuing dialogs and roast exchanges with fellow home roasters than spending time with Professional Artisan roasters. Regardless all sources of knowledge and learning are good!

Let's face it, roasting coffee isn't Rocket Science. It's quite simple to turn green beans brown, as simple and easy as spreading a layer of greens on a cookie sheet and popping them in a 500f pre-heated oven. Can actually get a decent roast this way and even with some very limited profile control dropping oven temp after 5 min or so into roast to slow anticipated 1st at 8 to 10min to end of roast. OTH to get the most out of da wee little bean is more complicated than Rocket Science. (At least according to two home roasters I know who happen to also be Rocket Scientists.)

I'm not advocating anyone start or stop home roasting. I don't really care, it's a personal choice. I happen to enjoy coffee roasting as an integral part of my coffee journey. And now that great Professional coffees more readily available occasionally add them to the journey.

[TimEggers]

All I can say is that my home roasts never did taste quite right (for espresso only). It may be my espresso technique, but it was probably my roast.

Marshall took some guts to say what he did...and frankly based on my own experiences I couldn't agree more.

Well said.

(toss some of those arrows my way)

[RapidCoffee]

All I can say is that my home roasts never did taste quite right (for espresso only). It may be my espresso technique, but it was probably my roast.

Marshall took some guts to say what he did...and frankly based on my own experiences I couldn't agree more.

Tim, with your extensive home roasting experience, I'm surprised to hear you say this. I've always taken it as a given that professional specialty roasters produce a significantly better roast than I do at home - but that's not always been my experience. When my home roasts are "on", I enjoy them every bit as much. I do find that the pros are more consistent at roasting, and better at crafting interesting espresso blends.
____
John

[Martin]

All I can say is that my home roasts never did taste quite right (for espresso only). It may be my espresso technique, but it was probably my roast.
Marshall took some guts to say what he did...and frankly based on my own experiences I couldn't agree more.
Well said.
(toss some of those arrows my way)

"Experience great professional coffees before you start home roasting" That's good advice from Marshall. He doesn't say "how much" experience is required before allowing oneself to homeroast. But I think that there's an unspoken sub-text, which is this: If you are after, consistently, the best coffee, and if you are not a premier homeroaster of, perhaps, Jim's caliber, don't homeroast at all." IMO, this view is firmly rooted in Marshall's unique and admirable experience, and is hardly worth arguing about.

Marshall gets around; he's one of the best resources for referrals to cafes serving high quality coffees----nationwide, it seems. For example, it might have taken me another year to have discovered Cafe Luxxe, even though it's a 5 minute drive. Marshall's key point, I think, is that we must "calibrate" our roasts and tastes in order to even have a clue if we are drinking high or low caliber coffee. But such calibration is iterative: taste some of the best, then do a lesser quality roast at home; then go to a great cafe; then adjust your shots; and so on. That's good advice for home roasters, but not an argument against homeroasting.

A corollary to Marshall's advice might go out to the home barista community. "Please rest your experiences for 48 hours (or days!) before you post them as if they were spectacular advances to blending, roasting, tamping, or whatever. You are totally sold on Pan Roasting? See me in six months. You tried 11% robusta? Do another few roasts and report then. And so forth. Obvious exceptions are people like Marshall and Jim whose discussions are consistently worth reading and reliable. But they and a few others have set (or climbed) a high threshold. All the rest of us are newbies.

Martin

[TimEggers]

Tim, with your extensive home roasting experience, I'm surprised to hear you say this. I've always taken it as a given that professional specialty roasters produce a significantly better roast than I do at home - but that's not always been my experience. When my home roasts are "on", I enjoy them every bit as much. I do find that the pros are more consistent at roasting, and better at crafting interesting espresso blends.
____
John

Hello John,

I'm surprised to hear this from you! I consider myself to know very little about roasting. Sure I have tried and enjoyed a few methods of homeroasting, I have yet to better understand the process and fundamental changes of the bean during the roasting process. I am still learning and the wanting to learn more lead me to build my soup can roaster (so I could pull samples, take more-or-less accurate bean temps and have control over the entire process).

Having said that I have had several great shots from home roasted beans (specifically Sweet Marias green blends). I have found however that while attempting to better understand and control the variables of pulling a shot the added variables of the home roast made it even more difficult. In short (if it's not to late) I am of the opinion that a typical budding home barista is better serving themselves (as well as their own progress) by using a high quality, professionally roasted established bean/blend. That will elimate a set of variables from a system of already mounting variables.

I love home roasting and I love pulling shots from my roasts, but as I stated above I believe that home roasting is perhaps best left alone (or for press/drip) until the person pulling the shots has aquirred the skills to become a solid home barista. Only then should they begin to fold in the added variables of the home roasted bean (I won't even add the skill needed to properly blend single origin coffees).

I recall when I first began home espresso I was using small lots of home roasted beans (all with different roasts for sure) and I could not form a consistant shot. How many professional baristas adjust there shot techique to a specific roasted lot? I would guess most of them. Being a truly good barista takes skill and talent, same for roasting, these may be best apart from one another during the learning phase otherwise how will the barista know it's their shot or the roast that's off? Let alone they won't (I don't at least) have the skill to know what to change in the shot pull to better dial in the roast.

1. Learn to be a good barista (while learing the skills to taste/cup)
2. Start home roasting
3. Learn the skill of blending properly roasted single origin coffees (best to start with a GOOD preblended commercial green blend)
4. Have fun!

---


Martin,

Excellent thoughts. Very well said.

[Martin]

Martin,
Excellent thoughts. Very well said.

Tim, Thanks. The really scary part is that I'm actually starting to think that I know something about roasting and pulling shots. If I start using words like "swill" or "crap," please let me know (offline) that I've gone over the edge. And no, I don't disagree with Marshall, even though I think he's wrong.

Martin

[DaveC]

Home roasting is just a great way to gain more knowledge about coffee. It helps to have good kit, but it does not really matter if you can't afford an expensive roaster, there are cheaper alternatives. Are the home roasts as good as the "professional" roasts...who cares, who is to say whats right and wrong. If you like the taste of your roasts, great, keep roasting, keep improving. There is something a bit special about drinking a coffee that you have produced from green bean to cup.

Are all professional roasts great...no, neither all all home roasts. Is it difficult to roast, no, the 80/20 rule applies and 80% of the flavour/quality whatever can be got from the bean quite easily, with only basic skills and experience, prehaps getting all of that last 20% is an "art"

In some respects I agree with what you say Marshall, but only from a perspective of informing yourself about coffee...I see it as no reason to delay the interesting and exciting journey of home roasting. In some respects it's like home wine making!

[jason_casale]

Boy marshall I could not agree more to me you are preaching to the choir.
When I first started I mail ordered every different espresso and filter coffee from micro roasters I could.
I think I probably have tried at least 30 plus micro roasters for espresso and filter coffee. It gives you reference point for what you are shooting for.
I do not think I started home roasting for that 1st year and a half.
Then when I did it still took a while to get things roasting properly.
Then I moved to larger gas roasters another change all together.
Took about a year to get comfortable and skilled enough to operate one of those properly.
And I am still a novice. Learning from more experienced small batch roasters I respect and know on a personal level.
Good post and good point.

[mrgnomer]

To find out for myself what I hear being talked about I ordered some Intelligentsia Black Cat, Kid O's and Reserve La Tortuga. It arrived 4 days past roast. The pulls and coffee from all of them are very good. Better than the average roast/blend I've put together but not better than my best blend, I'd have to say. My roaster is a fluid bed as well. If I upgrade to a radiant heat drum I wonder if my roast quality will improve as well.

The La Tortuga is better than anything I've done for drip coffee, though.

[timo888]

... I think that many great (and essential in many cases) coffees will do just fine when shipped across the country.

On the issue of freshness when ordering mailorder...

I have had excellent coffees that made their way to PA from as far away as WA. It takes 3 days via USPS Priority to cross the country, though maybe as long as 8 days via UPS (no Saturday delivery). For roasters located on a coast who wish to cultivate customers on the opposite coast, USPS Priority is a better shipping choice, IMO.

Also, I would encourage roasters to offer more half-pound bags. We drink on average 4 singles per day, give or take; let's say dosed 10g each to make the calculation easier. At that rate, a single 16oz bag can be opened for as long as 11 days. If we have more than one blend going at a time (e.g. a morning roast and an after-dinner roast), that pushes the number of days the bags have been opened to three weeks (22 days). It would be better to have four half-pound bags than two one-pound bags.

Regards
Timo

[pauljolly65]

I just got a pound of Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber (Tom roasts once a week and sells the roasted coffee in addition to the greens). I wanted to continue comparing my homeroast with what's out there. OK, I also wanted to see just how good a roaster Tom Owens is !

Oh man, it's so much better than my coffee that it's not even funny . I've got lots of friends who insist that my coffee is the best they've had, and they're probably right, but this was a real clear glimpse of just how far I have to go with my espresso roasting. The Liquid Amber is so smooth with a staggering body and excellent (but muted) high notes. It's give me something to aim for, and will hopefully keep me from becoming too complacent in my own roasting.

Good advice, Marshall. I'm keeping at it.

Paul

[Cathi]

I've been contemplating jumping in to homeroasting for about 6 months or so but continue to hesitate. For now I'll stick with supporting professionals. I can tell the good stuff from the horrid, but still have a looooong way to go. While I wouldn't discourage anyone who's interested in roasting at home, I think that trying what the pros have to offer can only help you in your journey.