Excess Boiler Pressure in Elektra Semiautomatica

[ElektraOregon]

I purchased an Elektra Microcasa Semi Automatica in January 08. The machine is amazing. However, it occasionally has problems with excess pressure. From time-to-time, the machine will open a valve to release excess pressure from the boiler. The gauge will read very hot. This condition will last a few minutes, with water from the boiler essentially "boiling over." All the while, the red light indicating that the element is working will be on, suggesting that the machine is ignoring the pressure reading and is heating up anyway. This used to happen more when I would fill the boiler 3/4 full in the sight glass. I now only fill halfway, but still experience the problem occasionally. I asked 1st Cup about this and they suggested it was limescale buildup. I have difficulty believing this, as it started happening a couple weeks after I purchased the machine, and I live in a town in Oregon where the tap water is very soft. The machine works perfectly otherwise. Has anyone else experienced this issue or have ideas as to what may be wrong?

[HB]

There are other threads reporting the same problem; Jim noted it in the Article Feedback for the Buyer's Guide to the Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica:

A couple of follow up notes; first the good news, then the bad:

Doubles: In the review I said that the singles were spectacular, while the doubles were roughly the same as E61 machines. In the meantime, I've gotten better with doubles too. The trick is to dose the E61 style basket it comes with with only 14 grams, rather than the 18 or so one gets using normal dosing methods. At first, you'll need a 1/10 gram scale to get it right, since theirs no real landmark on the basket for dosing.

Pstat Woes Many recent buyers, perhaps even most, have experienced sticky pstats which fail to turn off properly (or sometimes at all). The Mater brand pstats have a prior history of having this problem en masse; possibly due to a production defect in their plant. My advice is to replace these with Ceme pstats. I've done this, and it works better. If you do get the sticky mater, you can turn the stat off by rapping the machine's base with your fist on the left side, close to where the pipe with the HX water enters the boiler. Obviously, this is just to get the heat off, it's not a fix. I've posted instructions on how to make the switch in this thread.

For now, I have followed his advice from the article and use distilled water for the boiler.

[howard seth]

I have had my Elektra Semiautomatica for over 1 1/2 years and experience those pressure build ups - 'into the red zone' frequently. I replaced the first pressure stat, myself, about 10 months ago. The machine, at that point, would stick at too high pressure, and would not come down. The newer stat (still a Mater - like the original) sometimes goes into the red - but eventually will come down, and then seems to behave itself for a while.

I should mention that I often took off the Elektra's bottom plate and tweaked the original pressurestat screw up and down, when I first got the Elektra - experimenting with different pressures for making espresso. This may have led to a pre-mature weakening of the stat. I have not tweaked the new stat more than twice in the past 10 months.

I do use distilled water for the boiler (steamer). I have de-scaled the machine (but not the boiler) several times since I have owned it.

Good luck.

Howard

[IslandAddict]

I had the same problem with my Elektra Semi purchased in March 2008. The pressurestat started sticking briefly after two weeks of use. Last week, after barely two months, the pressurestat stuck while I was away and boiled all the water out of the boiler. Time to replace the p-stat.

Luckily it was an easy repair. I ordered the Jaeger p-stat from Chris Coffee (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/repairparts/jaegerpressurestat), supposedly a better quality unit than the standard MATER and CEME p-stats. Chris Coffee very helpfully included illustrated instructions with color photos showing the wiring of the original MATER and the Jaeger replacement.

And sure enough, the MATER is gummed up with mineral deposits:



What's surprising to me is that from Day 1 I followed Jim Schulman's advice to use only distilled water in the boiler. How that much gunk got there after two months of using distilled water is a total mystery to me.

[howard seth]

Well, IslandAddict, it is good to know that the Jaeger pressurestat fits in the Elektra Semi. I have the feeling I will need to do another stat replacement in the not too distant future. Let us know if the Jaeger fouls up too.

... Was it really so easy, and straightforward, to replace the Mater with a Jaeger?


Howard

[ElektraOregon]

Thanks very much for everyone's very helpful feedback.

Sounds like I ought to try the Jaeger pressure stat. With the pressure in the machine not properly controlled, I do get nervous leaving the machine on when I'm not around. I will be interested to see if the pressure stat (once replaced) has the same mineral build-up as IslandAddict's.

With regard to limescale removal on the semiautomatica, does it do any good to descale the machine without descaling the boiler too? I have purchased Durgol, as it appears to be safer for use on a chrome machine (See http://www.1st-cup.com/parts/urnex/index.htm), but have not used it yet. I would appreciate any suggestions.

[IslandAddict]

Yes, replacing the pressurestat really is easy. If you can use a screwdriver and a wrench, you can do it.

You don't need to worry too much about leaving the machine on with an unreliable pressurestat. There is a thermal switch that cuts off power if the boiler overheats. When my pressurestat stuck, I came home to find an empty boiler, but the power was cut off and the machine was already cool. (To reset the switch, pop the yellow cap off the plastic base and stick a pen in to push the reset button.) I don't like the idea of steaming all the water out of the boiler, but apparently there is enough protection to prevent a catastrophic reactor meltdown.

[stefano65]

I don't believe the pressurestat brand will change your problem
you will only install a new part that eventually will get the same issue
the way that the machine is design with the copper hose below and in a angle will make it happen again
and can be almost certain that it is scale build in up ( doesn't take much for a small pstat)
we are located in Oregon as well and although I don't know where you are exactly
in 8 years of repairing machines from all over the state I have never seen a soft water around here so far
try to open the pstat blow some air in it,
do the same with the copper hose and see if the issue gets solved
durgol is not a very aggressive descaling agent but better then nothing

[another_jim]

I'm mystefied how this happens with distilled water. It obviously does, since the Ceme pstat I used as a replacement also went sticky a week ago. The Ceme is less liable to this then the Mater, but it can still happen. The pstat works under water rather than in steam, and this is the root cause of the gumming problem, whatever the stuff is, it can get there, whereas it can't if the pstat is in the steam.

I've done a TDS measure on my distilled water, and it is below 5 ppm, so there seems to be no way it can develop scale. However, there are preferential scaling spots. The Synesso had a steam boiler fill valve that would scale up in days even with RO water because of some oddity in its design made it a scale magnet; it has since been replaced by a model that doesn't have the problem. If there is some odd EM eddy current in pstats that makes it attract scale, these problems will occur in proportion to the time the machines are turned on. The Ceme is a bit more resistant to this, but still attracts scale and mine lasted only 15 months. I'll be interested to hear if the Yaeger does better.

I wonder if installing some sort of mesh or restrictor trap in the pipe may help?

Right now this is standing and unsolved annoyance that detracts from the ownership experience. Even Elektra doesn't have the goodwill to dodge correcting a problem in 25 years of production.

[CafSuperCharged]

the MATER is gummed up with mineral deposits:
<image>

Looking at the <image>, I really seriously doubt that to be mineral deposit.

What's surprising to me is that from Day 1 I followed Jim Schulman's advice to use only distilled water in the boiler. How that much gunk got there after two months of using distilled water is a total mystery to me.

This raises doubt more, even. Could the gunk be Loctite?

I visited one espresso machine "factory" in Italy. Factory is too big a word. It is like a warehouse where a small area is allotted to assembly - the parts are sourced from specialized sub-contractors. The factory assembles small batches of one model or a few models sharing the same basic structure, put them on a shelf in the warehouse and do another series.
In my case, due to staff turnover, or grown demand, another nephew was added to the staff. He assembled a series of a part of the machine, but put one component in the wrong place. The guy simply did not understand what he was doing and had not been able to oversee consequences. Not enough instruction and inspection - not enough training on the job. The assumption of the very clever uncle was this was so simple it could never go wrong.
This manufacturer does pretty much all seals with food grade Loctite - a bit more expensive than alternatives but saves a lot of time.

My guess is, Elektra hired someone recently that got similar training on the job and was too enthusiastic with the Loctite.

Regards
Peter

[CafSuperCharged]

My guess is, Elektra hired someone recently that got similar training on the job and was too enthusiastic with the Loctite.

The next question being, why the problem did not happen from day one,
Is Loctite thermoplastic, and could overheating when the boiler is not filled enough explain the build up?
It also makes you wonder what you are drinking actually, if this gunk deposits somewhere and it seems fair to assume part of it went into the coffee in dissolved state.

As to the distilled water - was it really distilled? Food grade? Over here, you can buy "distilled" water that is not suitable for consumption. You would wonder what happened to it to become undrinkable after distillation. Or are you using RO (reversed osmosis) - I use home-processed softened (ion-exchanger) water that next went through RO. Never had any problems with deposits or level detectors for that matter.

Regards
Peter

[stefano65]

The way the fitting of the pstat seats on the copper compression nipple in this specific application
WILL NOT NEED any loctite or any kind of goop.
THE picture DOES look like mineral build up
I've been to the elektra factory and the they are VERY careful to little details
in fact it's one of the pride of elektra
( the price that we pay for their product reflect that as well)
so the all nephew etc etc
I'm not saying is impossible but not likely to happen in such a place

[CafSuperCharged]

Stefano,

I am just offering a hypothesis.

It is hard to believe particles in the distilled water that was used in the machine, plus a bit of dissolved metals or metal oxides in the distilled water, would build the two layers visible when you look into the tube in the photo.

But then, it may be possible.

Regards
Peter

[cannonfodder]

I would second Stefano's comment. Those fittings (and many of the fittings inside an espresso machine) do not need Loctite. What you see inside the Pstat is mineral buildup/sludge. I have seen boilers with deposits in them ranging from the dreaded butterscotch pudding to something that resembles concrete depending on the water.

[1st-line]

I would second Stefano's comment. Those fittings (and many of the fittings inside an espresso machine) do not need Loctite. What you see inside the Pstat is mineral buildup/sludge. I have seen boilers with deposits in them ranging from the dreaded butterscotch pudding to something that resembles concrete depending on the water.

I would third Stefano's comment. I have 'almost' seen it all when it comes to limescale. In fact, I had a customer call today about a 17 month old Elektra Semiautomatica which had 4 pressurestats changed. I tried to explain to the customer that limescale causes these to stick or malfunction. She did not want to hear it.

I had a customer who used distilled water on this machine. Luckily, the customer was right here in NJ. He had a pressurestat problem the very 1st week. I explained to him about the limescale problems caused by water. He stated that he only used distilled water purchased at the store, and I replied that it was not distilled water he was using. He swore up and down that it was the machine. I asked him to come down on a Saturday (when it was convenient for him) to show him proof positive. He brought the machine and a sample of the distilled water.

Upon his arrival, I took off the pressurestat and showed him the build up. He was amazed on how fast it could build up. Second, we tested his water using a simple kit such as this

http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/c...em=V548&type=store

We together measured 7 French degrees of hardness. Basically, this was the same as New Jersey tap water. I advised that he go back to the store and ask for a refund.

My lesson learned.... do not believe what is on the label when it comes to bottled water. The best thing is to test the water supply (bottled or tap) on a regular basis, and take the appropriate measures accordingly.

Is it possible that the pstat on the Elektra sticks on the very 1st day. Actually, it is possible on any machine with a Mater or CEME pressurestat. The reason is that the Elektra machines are randomly tested at their facility with water, and sometimes coffee. They do try to remove all the water, but as the forces of gravity take over, residual water ends up in the pressurestat pipe. When this water dries on the diaphragm of the pstat, it will create a residue that makes it stick. Usually fresh water upon 1st use will clear it up, but sometimes a quick descaling is needed, and the problem is solved and we do not hear from the customer as long as they use softened water.

Now... back to the customer with the 17 month old Elektra who threatened to take 1st-line Equipment, LLC to court....

[another_jim]

These responses are getting a bit insulting. I use distilled water, checked with a TDS meter, and I've limescaled two of these pstats. There is no limescale anywhere else on the machine. I'm guessing the same holds tru for the other peple here having the problem.

I suspect the problem is the old one of a brass/aluminum pairing -- the bellows that clicks back and forth on all these pastats is aluminum, while the pipe and coupling is brass. This is an electrogalvanic pair that will create both scale and corrosion even with the low mineral levels of bottled distilled water. If this is indeed the problem, it means all the small aluminum bellow pstats will be toast pretty soon.

The fix may be quite simple -- what pstats are used on Pavoni and and Elektra lever machines? These seem to work OK.

[1st-line]

These responses are getting a bit insulting. I use distilled water, checked with a TDS meter, and I've limescaled two of these pstats. There is no limescale anywhere else on the machine. I'm guessing the same holds tru for the other peple here having the problem.

I suspect the problem is the old one of a brass/aluminum pairing -- the bellows that clicks back and forth on all these pastats is aluminum, while the pipe and coupling is brass. This is an electrogalvanic pair that will create both scale and corrosion even with the low mineral levels of bottled distilled water. If this is indeed the problem, it means all the small aluminum bellow pstats will be toast pretty soon.

The fix may be quite simple -- what pstats are used on Pavoni and and Elektra lever machines? These seem to work OK.

Jim,

Thanks for the follow up. It was good to see you at SCAA Mineapolis! In no way did I ever mean to be insulting. I apologize if I came across this way. The same pstat is used on the Elektra a leva machines. Pavoni has used a few different kinds amongst the years.

I know we had a discussion about this at SCAA Mineapolis. I agree part of the problem is the placement of the pressurestats at the base. As I mentioned, I do not think there is a way to mount the pressurestat on top without running the wires up the side of the boiler. The fact that these pressurestats are at the bottom allows all the accumulation of minerals to occur at the lowest point of the machine - the pressurestat and its tube. In 99.99% of cases where customers returned the failed pressurestat for evaluation, there was some form of limescale. Usually, a little shaking or descaling will cure the problem until it happens again. I can not remember the last time an 'unlimed' pressurestat came back.

On the flip side, limescale will also build up on these pressurestats where they are placed on top of or near the top of the boiler. The problem lies here as well.

The 'only' other problem is the size of the microswitch on the pressurestat. Over time, it can build up carbon on the two contacts. The carbon build up will force the two contacts to stick in the 'on' position and allow full heat. However, once these stick, they usually stick for good unless the contacts are cleaned or the pressurestat is replaced. It takes quite some time of 'powered 'on' time for this problem to develop. May I ask that you disasseble the microswitch on the problematic pressurestats? Or, please mail them into me.

Over more time, a rubber diapgram pressurestat has less elasticity which in turn increases the liklihood of constant full heat. Full replacement of the stat is required. I will agree with you on the bellow design you mentioned, but I have seen the same problem with CEME stats where IIRC the bellow was brass. I have to double check.

With regards to Jaeger, I have seen the same problem of limescale builup with them placed on top and bottom of the boilers.

[HB]

I explained to him about the limescale problems caused by water. He stated that he only used distilled water purchased at the store, and I replied that it was not distilled water he was using. He swore up and down that it was the machine.

As a point of interest, the vacuum breaker valve on my Semiautomatica stuck once and I e-mailed Jim to ask if this was a known issue. Jim relayed the same story to me. I didn't have a water hardness test, but I did check the distilled water with a continuity tester (zero). I pushed down the vacuum breaker valve and it hasn't stuck again.

[IslandAddict]

When my p-stat stuck for the first time on Day 13 of ownership, I made two assumptions: 1) either the pressurestat was defective or debris from the manufacturing process (metal filings or thread sealant, maybe) caused the malfunction; and 2) there is more to the science of numerology than I had previously been willing to acknowledge.

Now that I've actually examined it, I'm sure that the stuff in my Mater is limescale. It's white and chalky. It doesn't look like anything else. I'm just amazed that it built up so quickly. The Mater photo above is from Week 9 of ownership. The distilled water I've been using for the boiler is from CVS Pharmacy and is sold with a CVS label. I doubt a national chain like CVS would get away with selling phony distilled water (though I have serious doubts about whether the bottled water industry is effectively regulated).

One thing I've realized is that I haven't been careful about completely removing the remaining moderately hard brew water when I add distilled water for a boiler fill. I usually wait until the level in the reservoir is just above the point where the intake tube starts sucking air. But at that point there is still maybe an ounce or so of water left in the reservoir. Then there is maybe another ounce or so of water still in the tubing. It's possible that I've been getting a couple ounces of hard water into the boiler every time I do a fill. From now on I'm going to use a paper towel to mop up water in the reservoir and I'm going to run some of the distilled water through the group before filling the boiler. It doesn't seem like this little bit of hard water should cause pressurestat failure, but after reading the posts above, I might have underestimated the power of limescale.

I'm also wondering whether any other steps are worth considering:

- adding some kind of u-shaped trap or mesh screen to trap deposits before they reach the pressurestat? (This would presumably have to be removed for periodic cleaning.)

- periodic routine cleaning of the pressurestat? (If so, how?)

I have to say, even with the pressurestat hassle, I still absolutely adore this machine and regret nothing about my purchase.

[mhoy]

Boilers boil off water to make steam, the remaining water will slowly grow in hardness unless the incoming water has NO minerals what so ever, (which is not likely unless it's RO or distilled but this isn't ideal for espresso anyway). So every now and again drain sufficient water from the boiler so that it doesn't slowly become hardened.

A simple test, compare the hardness of the water you put into the system with that of cooled water from the hot water tap (if you have one). Alternatively draw water out of the boiler by removing say the safety valve. Really cheap test strips can be found in the water isle at Lowes for free. (Which may draw you back to get the water softener depending on your tests).

BTW: The John Guest fittings from Chris Coffee is wonderful to use.

Mark