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Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?

Beginner or pro barista, all are invited to share.

Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Elbasso on Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:47 am

After days of experimenting with three different blends of just three days old I still only manage to get baskets of fruit in my shots but no nuts. Zero. It's getting kind of frustrating cause the same blends actually taste mostly of nuts and hardly any fruit at the roaster. I have tried boiler pressures of 0.9 to 1.3 bar, underdosing and overdosing, long and short cooling flushes, long and short rebound times, hard tamping and no tamping, playing with the grind. All the time only changing one factor. The numbers are also good as in 25-30 sec for 50ml on 15 gr. The result in the cup looks pretty good as well. Loads of reddish brown crema, nice and even extraction with tiger striping (naked PF), mottling in the cup, you name it. Nonetheless, no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit and tea like aroma's in the nose. When slurping it in it is quite sour. This has lead me to thinking the temp was too low. But, at 1.3 bar I cannot imagine that the temp is too low. Especially not because the blends are all quite dark roasted. I also leave the machine on for an hour before I start using it. Furthermore, stopping the cooling flush immediately after the water dance stops and then taking it easy while grinding and tamping still doesn't help at all. I've tried measuring the water temp in a pre heated rubber thingy and managed to get a 91 C reading on a very slow kitchen thermometer. I expect the brew temp at the puck to be at least 3 C higher. I am really puzzled here. I have ordered Eric's device to get some insight into the grouphead temp but until it arrives I would still like to drink some nutty stuff.

There might be one more thing worth mentioning. When the water dance stops during the cooling flush, the water flow is interrupted completely for one to two seconds. After that the water starts flowing again at a constant rate. I don't know if this is normal.

Any tips are more than welcome!

Cheers,

Elbasso

P.S. I have descaled the whole machine twice and also pulled the mushroom, and basically cleaned all the individual parts. Same goes for the dispersion screw and screen. Everything looks shiny and new.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by roblumba on Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:20 pm

Try even hotter. It still sounds like the water is too cool.

Perhaps the roast is off. I had some Kneebuckler from Barefoot coffee roasters that acted very weird. It sounded very familiar to your situation. It was very picky because it didn't like 201 or 202 and only started to taste right at 203 or above. I don't remember exactly which temperature I settled on, but 204F or 205F probably would have tasted good too. That batch they roasted happened to be very finicky. They had changed the roast slightly, so that could have been part of the problem. But I don't think they intended it to be that finicky.

But to Barefoot's credit, they are still awesome. Last time I was in there, they didn't even have kneebuckler on the shelves, I know they ran out of one of the components of Kneebuckler. Perhaps it's just taking a vacation until next harvest. Anyhow, any of their other blends are awesome. Bigfoot, Boss, Element 114, Sweetness. Yummy. I had Element 114 all weekend, it's delicious. And last time I was in their shop the Barista pulled 2 double shots of Bigfoot that had the perfect blend of dark chocolate and berries with the fruity aroma intact. It was amazing.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by another_jim on Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:55 pm

Um, that's 25 to 30 seconds plus the 8 to 10 seconds before you see any drops, I hope.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Elbasso on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:44 am

roblumba wrote:Try even hotter. It still sounds like the water is too cool.

The thing is, when I got my new machine about nine months ago, the same blends tasted great. It actually didn't seem to matter what temp I was using, the shots were always good or better. This was very convenient cause I had to learn to froth all over again with this machine.
Since then, the shots seem to have been slowly degrading. This lead me to believe that maybe the HX was getting scaled up and thus less efficient. Two HX path and boiler descales later I notice no difference. Now I am wondering if there might be something wrong with the grind (dull burrs maybe?). Will be heading off to have my roaster now and have them grind some beans for me. I am interested to see if that makes a difference.

another_jim wrote:Um, that's 25 to 30 seconds plus the 8 to 10 seconds before you see any drops, I hope.


I hope you're joking. If not, I've been pulling sub-optimal double ristretto's for the last three years :?

Although I borrowed this video from YouTube, this is basically what my extraction looks like. That includes the timing of the shot. This guy is also on the 26 sec timing after lifting the lever.

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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by another_jim on Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:19 pm

another jim wrote: Um, that's 25 to 30 seconds plus the 8 to 10 seconds before you see any drops, I hope.

el basso wrote:I hope you're joking. If not, I've been pulling sub-optimal double ristretto's for the last three years :?


For ristrettos it's more like 30 to 35 seconds after the first drop.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Elbasso on Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:38 pm

Well what do you know?! Received Eric's device in the mail today and it has solved my problem. Or rather, it has helped me diagnosing the problem. As it turns out, I stopped my initial cooling flush too early :oops: . Somewhere in the 200 - 201 range. But my consecutive "short" flushes were actually too long and came too early. This leads to a grouphead that keeps cooling off further and further. Hence the fruit / sourness. What's even better is that with Eric's device I am able to have a much more stable intra shot temperature which leads to a better extraction. Even the worries about scale building up in the HX path is taken away because I am able to exactly repeat Eric's thermal graphs taken from his Anita. I can highly recommend his device to anyone owning an E61 with an exposed grouphead.

Forget Obama, Eric for president.

Cheers!

Elbasso
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Brownie on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:07 pm

Elbasso wrote:I have ordered Eric's device


Sorry...what is Eric's device?

Thanks
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by HB on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:12 pm

Brownie wrote:Sorry...what is Eric's device?

See Monitoring Brew Temperature using E61 thermocouple adaptor and several other threads linked from the FAQs and Favorites Digest.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Elbasso on Thu May 01, 2008 3:15 pm

Brownie wrote:Sorry...what is Eric's device?


Actually, Eric (erics here on the forum) makes more than one device but in this case I was talking about his "digital thermometer adapter". It goes in the spot of the mysterious Allen screw in the center of the E61 group head. Check out the picture below and see what the path to espresso nirvana looks like.........

Image
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by cannonfodder on Fri May 02, 2008 10:35 am

I think we may be overlooking one major factor here. You mention the taste at the roasters place. Chances are, their equipment is a bit different than yours. Different machines/grinders will produce different flavor profiles and the subtle nuances you are chasing may not be obtainable on your current kit. No matter how much practice I put in, my shots will never be quite the same as from the café the beans come from, unless I get a Marzocco and Robur. I can get close but not exactly the same.
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Link to "Espresso has no nuts, no chocolate, just fruit - why?!?"by Elbasso on Fri May 02, 2008 1:53 pm

Agreed. The sour shots are history since the arrival of the thermometer by the way.
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