Eliminating noise from vibration

[Ron_L]

I have a few spots on my Alex that vibrate and make noise when the pump is running and I'd like to add some sort of padding to dampen the noise. What type of material have you folks used to do this? Since the parts are hot, I don't want to use something that will melt or soften and leave a mess.

The primary source of the noise is where the cup warmer tray sits on top of the machine, and also from the cups sitting on the warmer tray. I'd like to put a few small pieces of foam between the cup warmer and the rest of the machine and I'd like to put a mat on top of the cup warmer (maybe some sort of rubber mesh so that it doesn't block the airflow through the machine). I though I saw a post here about someone doing this sort of thing, but I can't find it.

Any thoughts?

[Nickel]

You might want to try Dynamat to reduce the vibrations from the motor and pump. There is a Dynamat that is designed for high temp. applications. This material is used to dampen noises in cars and should work for your application.

As far as the cups vibrating, try a mesh rubber mat sold at most hardware stores for lining kitchen cabinets and drawers. I believe it is a 3M product.

Nick

[HB]

I have a few spots on my Alex that vibrate and make noise when the pump is running and I'd like to add some sort of padding to dampen the noise.

Doesn't that machine have a rotary pump? It's better to stop the vibration at the source than try to dampen its effects. In the early days, the La Spaziale S1 was noisy as rotary pumps go. They replaced the motor mounts and it's now one of the quietest espresso machines around. If you bought it from Chris' Coffee, give them a call. They're very good at diagnosing and correcting nigglers like this.

[Nickel]

Doesn't that machine have a rotary pump? It's better to stop the vibration at the source than try to dampen its effects. In the early days, the La Spaziale S1 was noisy as rotary pumps go. They replaced the motor mounts and it's now one of the quietest espresso machines around. If you bought it from Chris' Coffee, give them a call. They're very good at diagnosing and correcting nigglers like this.

Agreed, but the La Spaziale has a plastic case that would not vibrate with the same frequency of a stainless steel case. It also has different dampening factors so it would uncouple from the vibration of the motor-pump. Dampening is the key here as it will cause the case to vibrate at a lower frequency so as to become a non-factor in noise production.

I have a Vetrano that was vibrating and it turned out to be a motor produced by Ulka. I replaced it with an RPM-Spa and the vibration is all but gone. Now all that was left was the case vibration. Dynamat Extreme solved that problem. Now it is very quiet and all I hear is the hum of the motor. The amount of stainless steel and size of the cases on these machines act as a very large source of noise and also as a sounding board to increase the level of sound. Isolation of the motor-pump is only a small factor in reducing noise.

First decouple the motor-pump from the case, then dampen the case to reduce sympathetic vibrations that remain.

Nick

[Ron_L]

Thanks guys...

Nickel, thanks for the tip on the Dynamat. I'll track some down. As far as the Rubbermaid mesh, We have a bunch of it laying around, but I wasn't sure how it would hold up to the heat of the warming tray. Have you used it on your machine?

Dan... I hear what you are saying and i will check with one of Chris techs. If i remove the cups and the warming tray the machine is very quiet, so isolating the "loose" parts should fix the noise. it's not really loud, just annoying. I have a pet peeve for vibrating things, I guess. Overall, even with the cups vibrating the machine is quieter than my Millennium was.

[HB]

I have a pet peeve for vibrating things, I guess.

Me too. I grew weary of tracking down vibrating this and vibrating that and outboarded the (vibe) pump to the cabinet below. Then I learned that the pump itself is actually quiet, but it's good at transmitting vibration through the line. Adding a few feet of braided stainless steel tubing surrounded by neoprene piping insulation (from Home Depot) brought vibe pump to rotary pump quietness for an hour's work and less than $10 in loose parts.

The drawback, of course, is that the installation is permanent. No biggie, La Valentina is bolted to the countertop because I have a pet peeve about machines that move when locking in the portafilter, too.

[lparsons21]

I got a sheet of sticky back felt pads at the dollar store and put some in between the warming tray and frame. Quieted mine down quite a bit and have stayed on since I got the Alex.

[2xlp]

on a related note:

i picked up some new vibe mount pads, as one of my existing ones was bent-out-of-shape and vibrating quite a bit thanks to bad factory installation

the pump doesn't sit as tightly in the new mounts. can anyone suggest a way to give it a tight fit ?

[cafeIKE]

I added this to the top of of the Vibiemme to stop the rattle of the cups and top cover.
It has little 'feet' to raise the mat above the cover so ventilation is not impeded.

It's an InterDesign SinkWorks small clear sink protector.
Available at Bed Bath & Beyond, Linens n Things and sundry other kitchen retailers.

[DaveC]

This is what I did for my MK1, should work on a MKII though.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/coffeetime/_sgg/m1mc_1.htm

[bobpaule]

I put irradiated sand in my plumbed-in Isomac Millennium's water reservoir. This will stabilize the chassis (bottom, sry modded my car too) and panels will get a lot less induced vibration.

Also put lock washers on all bolts and the Ulka pump rubber retaining screws, and put small strips of plumber's heat activated stretch rubber tape where the panels meet. I found the pump screws quite loose after 5 years.

Took the 7 mm rubber padding under and above all electronics (Giemme board, C. Gavazzi SSR) while sitting in small plastic trays (Little Debbie wrapper types) to survive the next deluge. The two flimsy Y connectors got replaced with brass T connectors. Tubing and wiring got rerouted as far away from boiler and pump as possible. Generous numbers of zipties through and through.

It is now a mouse compared to earlier times


Do not try this at home. Only trained technicians should perform the above.

[cannonfodder]

I put irradiated sand in my plumbed-in Isomac Millennium's water reservoir.

I think it is important to emphasize a line in Bob's post. He is putting sand in the water reservoir of his PLUMBED IN machine. Please, don't drop sand in the bottom of your water reservoir when you are using it as a water supply tank.

The first time I read the post I almost fell out of my chair. I thought, you did WHAT, I had to re read it before it sunk in. You could also add a bag of lead shot to weight down the machine, provided you have a bag of #8 shot in the garage. The easiest way to quiet down a machine is to go with a rotary pump.

[whereshaldo]

...merged additional details with existing thread on same topic by moderator...


I've been living with the Silvia for about 2 months now -- long enough to get to where I can pull a halfway decent shot about half of the time My main complaint about the Silvia, and one that I've occasionally heard about it any many other of the vibe pump machines is that it is just too noisy. It seems especially noisy at 6AM when everyone else is trying to sleep.

I had some leftover adhesive backed sound dampening material from http://www.mcmaster.com (see page 3360). After removing the top and the splash panel of the Silvia (6 screws total) I cut pieces of this material and stuck it to the inside of every stainless surface that I could easily reach. It doesn't take a lot but even a 2"x2" square stuck behind the Rancilio logo on the front of the unit cuts down the vibration.

If you cant come up with enough places to use up a 32" x 54" sheet of sound deadening material, head out to your local car stereo store and get a 12" square sheet of Dynamat -- same idea but you pay extra for the branding. These products are heavy, often asphalt based, self adhesive sheets that you stick to the inside of your trunk, hood, doors, floors, and any other panel that vibrates sympathetically with whatever is vibrating. Same theory with the Silvia -- stop the stainless panels from vibrating and you'll cut down the noise. If you tap on the top of the Silvia with your finger, you can hear it resonate. Now place your palm on the top panel and then with the other hand tap on the top again -- the drumming is minimized.

The Silvia is MUCH quieter. I don't have a thingy to measure decibels, but its certainly at least half as noisy.

Hal

[jesawdy]

Is it this (pg 3397)?:

Flexible, Adhesive-Backed Sheets

Use these sheets to stop structure-borne noise and vibration at its source. Installation is easy ... just peel back the adhesive backing and place sheet onto surface. Cut with a knife.
EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate) meets UL 94HB. Color is black. For indoor use.

Product No. 9709T39
Sound and Vibration Damping Sheet EVA Mastic, .079" Thick, 32" X 54"
In stock at $16.62 Each

[whereshaldo]

I believe so -- its been about 8 years since I bought the material, but that is what I was talking about.

<edit>
One thing that I noticed this morning is that the top of the machine seems a lot warmer than it did before I added all this insulation. I am not sure whether this is because the mastic sheets add thermal mass or because the extra insulation causes the machine to run hotter. I will monitor this for the next week or so and let you all know if I decide this insulation is a bad idea.

Good luck to me...

H

[politbureau]

One thing that I noticed this morning is that the top of the machine seems a lot warmer than it did before I added all this insulation. I am not sure whether this is because the mastic sheets add thermal mass or because the extra insulation causes the machine to run hotter. I will monitor this for the next week or so and let you all know if I decide this insulation is a bad idea.

The machine runs hotter because the EVA (Ethyl Vinyl Acetate) sheets actually insulate the panels and prevent conductive heat loss. Thus you have reduced the heatsink-effect of the casing in removing heat from the interior.

Is this an issue? One can only postulate about long term reliability, but I would imagine parts MTBF would be reduced exponentially, but whether any of the internal parts are affected by this increase in heat is unknown.

I completed the same exercise as you, however I disassembled the entire machine and custom cut damping material to fit the exact dimensions of the case, and around the switches, etc. I also soft mounted the pump using a piece of thick closed cell foam and bent steel wire. The foam is available from outdoor camping stores (Mountain Equipment Co-op sells it as Evazote, I bought the 1.5cm thick pad) here in Canada, and is generally yellow in colour (blue is open cell). Steel wire is available from Canadian Tire in small rolls. I recommend 12 gauge or larger, or alternatively, a coat hanger would work well if you are skilled in bending!

On the plus side, your cups get much warmer

[mhoy]

Have any of you posted pictures of the "after" case mod's? (I've only moded CPU enclosures up to now).

Thanks in advance,
Mark

[dsc]

Hi everyone

lately I 've been emailing with some companies that carry vibe damping solutions (brackets, mounts and similar) and they all say it's quite hard to dampen the vibration carried over from the vibe pump as it's too light. Most solutions can be used for weights above 1kg and Ulka vibe pumps weigh much less (I'm guessing 500g).

The sound from my Andreja is really annoying, I mean I got used to it, but it still would be nice to have a machine that's a bit more quiet. I was recently thinking of sticking a brick inside the machine and attaching the pump to that. I doubt vibrations will get transfered to anything besides the hoses which can be easily stuck to something solid and the problem should be solved. Either that or adding some sort of DIY mount which will dampen the vibrations.

Cheers,
dsc.

[Beezer]

This weekend I installed some Dynamat on the inside of the case on my Anita. I also stuck a few pieces of Dynamat on the bottom of the case, including a piece directly under the pump. I put some of the clear plastic sink protector material recommended by Dave on top of the cup warming tray, and put electrical tape on the bottom of the cup warmer. The net result is that the pump does sound a bit quieter, especially when its under full pressure while pulling a shot. It's not silent by any means, but the buzzing sound from the case vibrating is definitely reduced.

However, there may be a significant downside to all this sound damping material. This morning while I was pulling a shot, the pump simply stopped in the middle of the shot. There was still plenty of water in the tank, and the machine still had power. In fact, the red heating element light was on at the time the pump quit. It just shut down without warning. I let it sit for a few seconds and then tried again, and it came on no problem. But now I'm wondering if the sound damping materials are causing too much heat to be retained in the case, and causing the pump to overheat. Does this sound reasonable, or am I just being paranoid?

[cannonfodder]

Could be. Did you cover any of the vents in the bottom of the machine?

I once read that manufacturers do not insulate their boilers because the reduced heat slows the natural convection of air in the machine. As the heat from the boiler rises out the cup warmer, cool air is drawn in through the bottom vents keeping a constant supply of cool air drawing up over the electronics. That is another reason you should not cover the cup warmer cover with something like a towel. I did not completely buy into it, but maybe the effect is more dramatic than I thought. If you have a wire thermocouple, you could put it under the pump and snake it out the bottom vent to get an idea of how hot it is getting inside the case.