Elektra/Pavoni side by side - Page 2

[Bubble_Boy]

Since the wife was out to dinner, I figured I would stage one of those very sophisticated HB tests that women would categorize as a genetic male flaw should they observe it. I decided to do a pull using the bathroom scale.

Steve,

I found your comparison of the Lever Machines really Funny, as well as extremely informative.

Your writing style is easy to follow and your sense of humor is totally hilarious.

Definitely write up some more stuff when you have time.

Craig

[jd576]

The problem is I need to cut the bottom off the Pavoni portafilter before I can get my larger basket to fit in. Espressoparts.com will do the job of cutting a portafilter to bottomless for $25.

As you probably know, with the 51mm portafilter one cannot fit anything larger than the the stock double basket (which holds just over 12gm). And the Pavoni portafilters cost about $75 -- so it is an expensive experiment.

I am also told that "no one" now makes a 51mm basket except Pavoni -- the bigger ones I have are from an old Krups steam espresso makers I bought in the mid-1980's.

Maybe I am crazy, and it will make no difference -- or maybe I will not even be able to pull a shot through the bigger basket! Your comments above, however, make me think it is worth a try. Suppose I will have to spend the money and find out, or just continue wondering about it!

[srobinson]

Craig, thanks for the vote on my writing. Many times these are done late at night in a caffeine infused haze and you question whether they make sense at all.

There is a nice thread on the A3 ...in the Bench forum if you want to see more of my rants.

[srobinson]

jd576, Now the HB team would never discourage one of our readers from spending $100 bucks in the pursuit of better coffee, I understand that it may be a bit much for this experiment.

Dan and I talked about your post last night and just were puzzled over your desire for 3oz pulls. The more I use these machines, the more I tend to go the other direction...pulling ristrettos. One of the most sublime coffee I have made have been a single pull with the larger Elektra basket on the pavoni.

As with many things in life we are stuck with the size of things that god gave us and in this case you can either perform the portafilter surgery or pull some smaller shots. Do a single pull with that 51mm original filter with all the steps right and tell me how that tastes. I would take two of those any day over a 3oz that I would categorize as a caffe crema.

[jd576]

One of the most sublime coffee I have made have been a single pull with the larger Elektra basket on the pavoni.

There, you said it again! Add that to your previous tormenting words:

Those of you who have ever used the Pavoni understand what it means not to get an additional 25% more coffee in the filter and being able to pull some real doubles with 16.5 grams...

I just have this impression that with a bit more coffee in a bit larger basket, I would be able to pull a bit better shot. Size is not the issue entirely. (I think I read that in an old issue of Cosmopolitan...)

I only pull one shot in the morning. It's my daily ritual of coming to terms with "awake". Been doing it the same way for 15 years. And I enjoy doing it with my new partner, the Pavoni -- it is a simple, elegant machine. But I want that one shot to be really good, and just a bit bigger.

[Teme]

Let me know if there is interest out there on more threads on levers, process, and the science behind them etc since I tried not to cover ground that is readily available on other sites.

These are both great machines and if you have not experienced a lever then you should. They are both elegant solutions in tackling the complexity of making espresso. While they are not simple to use, I do not view them as out of reach to begin to master by any skill level. You will learn a lot about your skills and in turn be able to apply that to all of your barista endeavors.

A great thread Steve and a very interesting read as I am actually thinking of buying a lever machine. I thought of posting here but started a new thread on a few questions that I have.

Br,
Teme

[KarlSchneider]

jd576, The more I use these machines, the more I tend to go the other direction...pulling ristrettos. One of the most sublime coffee I have made have been a single pull with the larger Elektra basket on the pavoni.

Steve,

As an authentic amateur at lever machines I decided a few days ago to work on shots made with a single pull. My mere one week with my Elektra tells me to agree with your suggestion here.

I also seem to notice -- on very little evidence that my old habit of preferring dark roasts is turning the other direction too with the Elektra. Just tried a lighter 2-day old roast and I could taste more of the details of the flavors.

Alas off on another trip that will interrupt my espresso studies.

[srobinson]

Karl, you see I am going to warp you. You came to me seeking Cafe Cremas and you are already into the multi-layered depths of ristrettos. I am sorry to inform you but White Zinfandel and Merlot will no longer work for you. You are into Pinot range now...and fortunately you have all the tools to take you to the next level.

Now when are you going to send me some homeroast so I can check out your handi-work?

[KarlSchneider]

Karl, you see I am going to warp you. You came to me seeking Cafe Cremas and you are already into the multi-layered depths of ristrettos. I am sorry to inform you but White Zinfandel and Merlot will no longer work for you. You are into Pinot range now...and fortunately you have all the tools to take you to the next level.

Now when are you going to send me some homeroast so I can check out your handi-work?

Steve,

Minor correction. I have a wine cellar of ca. 1000 bottles (including many fine red burgundies) collected over many years. Have not had White Zin in years. Never bought one. Tonight will open a 1990 Chianti Monsanto Il Poggio.

My interest in espresso dates from long ago but only have had the machines to do it myself since 2002.

Send me your address and I will gladly send you some home roasted coffee. Just did two batches today -- a North African blend (SM's Moka Kadir) and Ethiopian Harar Horse. I don't have much Cental American green stock but several Ethiopians, Yemeni's, Brazil's and Sumatrans. Want an SO espresso or an espresso blend?

[ladalet]

Steve,

I was wondering the technique you use to pull a double on your LaPavoni. This is where I run into the most trouble. I sometimes start to lose crema and get blonding after lifting the lever for the second pull. The most commonly used technique taught is to pull the lever all the way down for the first shot (less for ristretto), lift it all the way back up, and then all the way down for the second. This usually destroys the seal between the puck and the basket or break the puck for me. So, I make 2 short pulls about 1/3 the way down followed by a full pull. This works most of the time, but the act of doing the second pull seems to be a major weakness of home lever machines. I would really appreciate your input and hearing your technique.

Thanks in advance,

Lance

P.S. I asked Cannonfodder the same question. Perhaps having 2 posts within the lever post for frothing and shot pulling techniques and pictures would be good.

[mbach]

I've read and re-read all the posts and am thoroughly confused. Is the Elektra basket (double) you put in your Pavoni Pro 51mm or 49mm? I have an older (orange base, but repainted) LP that I've been using and working on for a few years, and it's 49mm basket size. I'd love to try a deeper basket, but your LP pro is the newer 51mm isn't it? Help.
mbach

[HB]

Is the Elektra basket (double) you put in your Pavoni Pro 51mm or 49mm?

Steve borrowed my Microcasa for his comparison. It has a 49mm basket.


Europiccola and Microcasa double baskets

[srobinson]

Ladalet, I apologize for not seeing your post. Just getting back in the game. On the Pavoni I bring the first pull down until it is about 1/3" from stop and then back the to top. I continue the second pull until I see blonding. With the larger Elektra basket, I simply do a single pull for a great ristretto. The improvement on the Olympia are the 4 magic little holes and the construction of their gaskets that allow them to for a strong seal on the downstroke and relieve pressure on the upstroke. This alleviates some of the issues that folks have on the second stoke with levers.

With regards to the larger basket, as Dan said....I have a pre-2000 machine. 49mm.

[Paul L]

The plastic tamper supplied by Pavoni with my recent Europiccola (still 49mm despite the move to larger group) drove me mad. I sent my single basket over the pond to Reg Barber who made a 51.5mm base to fit and with the separate handle choices I can indulge some fashion changes over the years. I went for the gloss black this time. It is good to enjoy a tactile and perfectly fitting tamper for the first time.

My digital scales tell me that I consistently use about 15g in my double basket and this naturally seemed small at first compared with my 58mm Gaggia. However, the intensity of the shot means I'm not actually using that much less milk in my Capps and I'm not finding flavours smothered. This is of course in the context of finding that more delicate coffees are somewhat lost (wasted probably) in a Capp.

Quick anecdotal story though. My Mother called in last week about 5 months since the last visit. iRoast, Macap 4 and Pavoni well installed and dialled into my daily routines by now. Like many people she had never seen a green bean before. 30 minutes later she had seen roasting, grinding, examined a handful of roasts at between 1 day and a week old and finished a Capp. The following day within seconds of picking up a Capp she remarked that this was a different bean, wasn't it? Despite a lifetime of granules yes she was right. The supposedly small shots from a Pavoni do not it seems mask the flavours from coming through. The 3rd visitor in a fortnight to make similar comments.

[internato]

I had to believe that this topic is just a joke......to compare Europiccola with anyone of Elektra machines.....i'm sure it's a joke........
La Pavoni is just the history of ITALIAN LEVER ESPRESSO MACHINE!!!!
We all cannot compare these two brands...LaPavoni is uncomparable and we can say everything about filters, boilers, prices.....but there will be alway a big big hole between LaPavoni and others brands....

[Paul L]

I don't understand your style Internato - perhaps it's meant to be humourous, I hope so. In 6 months in coffee world I have not seen the kind of flaming which is commonplace in autos, audio, photography etc.

I love my Europiccola and it's hard to imagine wanting a different machine but we never know where life takes us next. This aside, I would not dream of knocking any other lever choice. This is a pretty small community and we're all allies on here right?

If your post was serious, damn that's a shame. In which case I shall at least sit back and enjoy the detailed technical arguments and learn more about Pavoni and other lever machines in the process.

[srobinson]

Internato, while I really appreciate your enthusiasm for the La Pavoni brand, I don't appreciate your style and approach of your post. In starting this forum, the desire at HB was to build a community around these machines and not start factions within that community. Your passion goes without stating; reading your posts...and I would almost question whether you are being paid by Pavoni by the strength of your statements promoting their new machine. As Paul says, you should use your enthusiasm to help educate others. Me personally, I am just fascinated by these machines, and am fortunate to have access to Pavonis, Elektras and Olympias. I write about them to share back what others have taught me. As such, I would suggest that if you are interested in being part of this community that you become an active citizen and look for constructive contributions.

[HooHaw]

I like this thread, it's fun!

[internato]

I would like to put a wagon of water over the fire that i unintentionally start here.
A member just asked the better machine between a LaPavoni and an Elektra...i believe that everybody, before replying, in his mind answered that the "better one" (not considering the price, and the difficult of making great espresso with LaPavoni) is LaPavoni.
My post was only an opinion, just considering the reputation of these two brands here in italy.
I didn't want to be humorous or serious, i just wanted to say what i think.....

[psycho_supreme]

I am trying to convince the wife that this should go on this year's Christmas card:

What kind of demitasse is this and where can I get one! lol