Dry Puck Falls Out

[vanboom]

Hello All,
I have owned a Silvia for about 4 years and I am still improving my techniques!! I have been practicing my leveling and tamping technique after watching some YouTube videos showing the stockfleth's move.

In a lot of videos I notice the barista turn the portafilter upside down after tamping to let some loose grounds fall out. When I do this, my dry puck falls out.
I am using the LaMarzocco ridgeless basket and it is very smooth on the inside - but I wonder if something about my tamp is wrong.

Also, after extraction my pucks are nearly identical every time - slightly flaked on the bottom especially around the corners and some of the puck is left in the bottom corners of the portafilter. Could I be tamping too hard?

I think I could use some tamping advice. Thanks!
Don

[TimEggers]

Hi Don,

I wouldn't spend another second worrying about your pucks. I would focus on the taste of your espresso. Is there something off about the taste that you notice when your puck changes?

Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.

Best of luck and welcome to the community.

[shadowfax]

Don,

I've had that experience before--dose, tamp, turn over, puck slips out and falls apart on counter, curse...

Kinda sucks. Being that I am not bound by the laws of super-sanitary food preparation, I generally prefer to blow on my puck before locking it in to get the stray grinds off. BTW, I have 2 ridgeless baskets (LM double like yours and a Synesso triple). How hard are you tamping? Do you tap the portafilter at all? After an initial tamp? Don't worry about the smoothness of the basket, that's perfectly normal.

The only issue that I can think of with pucks falling out is that you may get side-channeling. If you have a bottomless portafilter you will notice that the shot will start out as a donut ring and come in (maybe). If you are getting this, you will also see early, bad blonding, regardless of what type of portafilter you use, and you will probably notice some pretty nasty, overextracted flavors in your cup.

So, like Tim said, the main question is what's in the cup?

[HB]

In a lot of videos I notice the barista turn the portafilter upside down after tamping to let some loose grounds fall out. When I do this, my dry puck falls out.

A "portafilter flip" prior to lock-in may help keep the group cleaner if you're pulling hundreds of espressos a day, but for home barsitas, I don't see much value in it. As to why the dry puck falls out: Are you using fresh coffee? I assume the puck's adhesive capacity is greater for fresh coffee since it has more oil content.

[DavidBB]

I find the only time my dry puck falls out is if I tamp and then tap before I tamp again. If I skip the tap, all is well.

[zin1953]

David, repeat after me (or Tim):

Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.
Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.
Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.

Then, drink two single espressos, and post here in the morning.

[RapidCoffee]

In a lot of videos I notice the barista turn the portafilter upside down after tamping to let some loose grounds fall out. When I do this, my dry puck falls out.
I am using the LaMarzocco ridgeless basket and it is very smooth on the inside - but I wonder if something about my tamp is wrong.

Also, after extraction my pucks are nearly identical every time - slightly flaked on the bottom especially around the corners and some of the puck is left in the bottom corners of the portafilter. Could I be tamping too hard?

Hi Don, and welcome to H-B. In contrast to the sage advice given above, I believe something is wrong here. I've been inverting the PF/basket after tamping to remove stray grinds for years, and while I agree that it's not necessary, my pucks never fall out (well, maybe 1 in 1000 does ). Like you, I use a "LM" ridgeless double basket, so that's not an issue.

Tamping too hard should not cause pucks to fall out. Instead (as noted above), it's more likely to be the type of coffee you're using and/or something that breaks the side seal of the puck with the basket (such as a side tap). I'd suggest that you try a freshly roasted commercial espresso blend, pay careful attention to correct grind/dose/distribution, use a simple tamp w/o any kind of tapping, and see if that improves matters.

Further reading: Mark Prince has begun an interesting series of articles on Tamping Science at CoffeeGeek.

[WilsonHines]

Hey Guys,
I have had the same problem with my puck falling out. If you think of this in computer technical support terms, the problem seems to be random and it doesn't seem to be anything that I can do to make the problem consistent or repeatable. It just happens. Some bags of beans seem to do it more (making me think freshness is an issue). And some bags of beans don't have the issue at all.

HB: In regards to freshness I usually buy Counter Culture Toscano or Aficionado and I won't use it earlier than the sixth day and past the 14th day. I am not sure this has anything to do with it, but I agree that the moisture content is exactly what I thought was the culprit. It just makes logical sense. But, this is coffee and few things are "logical."

I don't "tap" in my tamping. And my portafilter is a Faema standard portafilter. I don't know if it is ridgeless or ridged.

[TimEggers]

In contrast to the sage advice given above, I believe something is wrong here.

I fully agree if like I asked there was a change in taste or shot appearance. I would suspect a dry puck that doesn't adhere to the basket would side channel and thus change the character of the cup or offer a visual clue during the pour. "Puckology" is just becoming too commonplace anymore, here I believe if there is really is a problem the cup will tell it (or even the bottomless portafilter if one is being used).

Pucks aside again I ask what's in the cup?

[Psyd]

Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.

Remember as well, that ugly pours and ugly pucks are occasionally the harbingers of developing problems at the cold end of the portafilter. Paying attention to them may stave off impending lackadaisical attention to technique, and may start you on the road to improving the actual taste in the cup.

Kinda like training a new shooter. If a whole buncha holes end up high, and to the right, it doesn't mean that the shooter is jerking the trigger, but that sure is the first thing that I'm gonna check. If they're just a little high and to the right, in the ten ring, I can be satisfied, or try to figure out why, and get 'em all in the bull.
Just because the coffee is acceptable doesn't mean that there aren't things that could make it better. Odd looking pours and odd looking pucks might not be an issue, but if I saw 'em, I'd investigate, just in case.

[zin1953]

Hmmmm . . .

Remember the goal is great tasting espresso, not pretty pours or perfect pucks.

Just because the coffee is acceptable doesn't mean . . .

Since when does "great tasting" = "acceptable"?

I'm with Tim (and Dan). "How's the espresso?" That's the key. One always needs to keep an eye on one's technique -- the four M's, and all that -- but that doesn't mean you need to look for problems where there aren't any.

A "portafilter flip" prior to lock-in may help keep the group cleaner if you're pulling hundreds of espressos a day, but for home barsitas, I don't see much value in it.

It's not something I ever do; never saw the need.

Cheers,
Jason

[cannonfodder]

It happens to me once every blue moon but has not for some time now. I don't worry about the stray grounds, or portafilter tapping between tamps any longer. It serves no purpose and may do more harm than good. I simply wipe any stray grounds from the lip of the basket and portafilter lugs with a finger. I tamp once, no level tamp, tap tap, tamp. Just dose, level and mash it with the fancy coffee hammer. If your tamper is a little small you may also not be getting good side adhesion which would lead to channeling.

Come to think of it, I think the last time a puck fell out on me was in the winter when is was super dry out

[vanboom]

Thanks for some great discussion. I am roasting my own beans at home - so I am using fresh beans 0-5 days after roasting. When using a bottomless portafilter, I do notice a donut shape at the beginning of the extraction and the espresso goes full blonde after about 23 seconds.

I do knock the PF after a light tamp, so I am going to try tomorrow without the knock. Possibly my light tamp is not light enough and I am dislodging the puck when I knock off some of the crumbs.

Also, I am still training my taste buds so it is not easy for me to correlate taste and proper extraction. I guess that is why I am curious about other ways to understand proper extraction. I haven't developed a reference "cup" - and home-roasting throws a whole other set of variables into the mix. All issues aside, this is fun business!

best,
Don

[aindfan]

I don't think anyone mentioned this because a search of the words "twist" and "polish" came up empty.

The reason my pucks would fall out was that I would do a polishing twist while still putting pressure on the tamper. Turns out this is the sort of thing that just destroys side seals (you know, the ones necessary for a good, channeling-free ristretto). Now I polish by spinning the tamper without any pressure on it.

[Psyd]

Since when does "great tasting" = "acceptable"?

Hard to remember ezzackly when that happened, but it was probably around the time I refused to accept coffee that didn't taste great. There are those that will accept less than great tasting coffee, but somehow I don't see a lot of them making a regular appearance on HB. Maybe I'm wrong?

[zin1953]

Well just because I don't go posting tasting notes every time I pull a "god shot" or a -- what's just short of a "god shot"? an "acolyte shot?"; "disciple shot"?; "Monkee shot"? ("Now I'm a believer, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.")

I can only speak from myself, but I've posted several times about the dismal state of espresso in restaurants, and how I try not to order them. Every so often, I forget, but --

Cheers,
Jason

[cannonfodder]

Back to the topic at hand, how did you make out with the no tap tamp?

I gave up on the light tamp, tap, hard tamp some time ago. I am convinced that the tap does no good and probably causes problems. The tap can break the side adhesion or even cause small fissures inside the puck which will lead to channeling. The few stray grounds left on the sides of the basket do no harm. I wipe the rim of the basket with my hand to remove any grounds that may break the seal or grind on the group gasket, and wipe off the locking lugs with a finger, then lock and pull.

Some time ago, I put together a thread with several tamping/distribution techniques as well as shooting several videos. It may be worth looking over.
Tamp and Dose Techniques Digest

[vanboom]

The no-tap tamp worked like a champ! I was able to dust off the PF with my finger, without needing to tap. I inverted the PF and some loose grounds fell out. I had a little wall of grounds stuck to the side of the PF in one spot. I am using a Reg-Barber tamper which seems to be about 1mm smaller in diameter than the LM ridgeless basket.

I still had the donut effect when the extraction started, but the espresso tasted great with a nice dark golden speckled crema. I was going to build a cappuccino for breakfast, but after a quick taste I decided to drink it straight.

I recently started polishing the puck with a bit more pressure after seeing some YouTube videos of people tamping, but I think I will take Dave's advice and go back to doing the "spin polish".

thanks!
Don

[TimEggers]

Hi Don,

Something I've done is use the brush I have for cleaning out the grounds chute of my Mazzer Super Jolly to clean the rim of the portafilter with the tamper still in the basket. The advantages of that is the tamper protects the puck from the brush (using a horizontal sweeping motion).

And yes no pressure polish please.

[RapidCoffee]

The no-tap tamp worked like a champ!...

I still had the donut effect when the extraction started, but the espresso tasted great with a nice dark golden speckled crema...

I recently started polishing the puck with a bit more pressure after seeing some YouTube videos of people tamping, but I think I will take Dave's advice and go back to doing the "spin polish".

Try downdosing a bit, it may help with the donut extraction. Use absolutely no pressure on the polish, or (even better) eliminate it altogether.

Nice work!