The Disappearance of the Straight Shot - Page 3

[JimWright]

What should a consumer to do then? We are also consumers, and there are tens of thousands of us online. I'd say it is enough of a market to tap into. If they serve it, we will come.

I'd go this one further and say that the freaks on these forums also bring a lot of others in for quality product, hopefully materially supporting/advancing the state of the business - I can't tell you how many of my friends and colleagues I've introduced to the few shops that do it right, but it is 10x at least.

[Abe Carmeli]

Ha hah ha hah ha.

There are places in the US that turn out hundred of shots of good espresso every single day.
When I rank the best 25 shots of my life - none were at someone's home.

Those must count for the other 2% .

[Nick]

Abe, from the title of your thread, "The Disappearance of the Straight Shot," to many statements you've made here, you are extrapolating a heck of a lot based on your personal experiences.

For example: the Straight-Shot is NOT Disappearing. To say that it is undermines everything else that follows.

That said, "The Straight Shot Report" is a meaningless endeavor, beyond it being a report on your preferences... in which case, the real subject is you and your preferences, not really the espresso itself. If you feel that you should embark on a journey of such self-promotion, or if you feel (perhaps legitimately so) that you have achieved a certain caché that you can tout yourself a qualified authority and reviewer, then go right ahead (I'm serious... not being snarky).

I'll tell you what though: do so at your own peril, for as you act as a critic of the product that is espresso, you can guarantee that others will freely act as critics of your product that is your report. Frankly, as someone who has had good experiences with you in person and online, I'd advise you to make sure you really know what you're getting yourself in to.

[JimWright]

There are places in the US that turn out hundred of shots of good espresso every single day.
When I rank the best 25 shots of my life - none were at someone's home.

Sounds like perhaps you should be providing "fair & balanced" input for the report then...

[roadman]

On Wed Jan 18, 2006

One of the top 5 shots of all time for me was pulled on a La Pavoni lever machine. Of course, the person who pulled the shot had spent years coming up with work-arounds and techniques to manage the machine (including things like frozen towels). Does this mean that the Pavoni has comparable performance to a Synesso?

When I rank the best 25 shots of my life - none were at someone's home.

Am I missing something here?

Jon

[cafeIKE]

There are places in the US that turn out hundred of shots of good espresso every single day.

I travel pretty extensively on business and always search out good espresso shops. In the busiest shops, at peak times, over the course of an hour or so, seldom heard more than a handful of straight shots ordered. 100 would require about 1 a minute at peak times...

When I rank the best 25 shots of my life - none were at someone's home.

Admittedly, I prefer lighter roasts and lower temperatures than typical in many shops, but pros and amateurs are running neck and neck... perhaps you need a better class of friends

IMO, most shops sell a milk flavoring ingredient as espresso and a goodly portion of barista's have never tasted espresso.

[Abe Carmeli]

Abe, from the title of your thread, "The Disappearance of the Straight Shot," to many statements you've made here, you are extrapolating a heck of a lot based on your personal experiences.

For example: the Straight-Shot is NOT Disappearing. To say that it is undermines everything else that follows.

Nick,

I think you are taking the title a little too literally. My point was not that the shot is disappearing but that its quality is declining.

That said, "The Straight Shot Report" is a meaningless endeavor, beyond it being a report on your preferences... in which case, the real subject is you and your preferences, not really the espresso itself.).

That is a good point. We are talking about a sensory experience here, and it cannot be totally detached from personal preferences. But saying that it will be only about my personal preferences would be pushing it too far. I've judged before, more than once at the USBC and regionals and I'll do my best to use the same tools when reviewing the straight shots. The problem of personal preference is inherent in every food/beverage review, and yet we all engage in them and value them despite it.

If you feel that you should embark on a journey of such self-promotion, or if you feel (perhaps legitimately so) that you have achieved a certain caché that you can tout yourself a qualified authority and reviewer, then go right ahead (I'm serious... not being snarky)

This is not about self promotion. I wish I could hand it over to someone else to do, but no one I know is foolish enough to do it. It is a thankless job that will bring me nothing but scorn.

I'll tell you what though: do so at your own peril, for as you act as a critic of the product that is espresso, you can guarantee that others will freely act as critics of your product that is your report. Frankly, as someone who has had good experiences with you in person and online, I'd advise you to make sure you really know what you're getting yourself in to.

Thanks for the candor and concern Nick. The bottom line is why do I need this crap? I live a charmed life in peace and harmony with everyone in coffee; do I really want to shake it all up and be at the center of a storm? I'm clearly not gaining anything here, nor am I interested in it. Serving better shots in coffee shops is not going to improve my espresso experience by much either. I really don't have a good answer to that question.

[Kuban111]

Gentlemen,

I don't believe the OP is talking about re-inventing the wheel here with his actions & intentions.

I believe we are all well accustomed to the practice of visiting a café, ordering an "espresso" and evaluating or judging for quality, ect , ect from a consumer point of view.
This kind of practice is well accepted in other food venues so why the fuzz.

The Idea that Artisan Coffee shops should make available feedback or an evaluation card is a great one. I'm sure cafes would benefit from what there costumers have to say from this kind of feedback.

So I humbly ask "what is the difference here from hearing what a customer has to say about his experience".
Is it because it's posted on a public forum for all to read, I wonder?

I believe artisan cafe shops should take into consideration all constructive feedback a customer has to offer no matter at what percentage he lands on. Yes $$$ & investing in resources does play a roll on this

Curious Nick - do you use separate grinders and/or blends for milk drinks than for straight espresso?

No, but I'm thinking' about it.

There is always room to improve...... I see this opportunity as simply that.
A voice has been heard.........
There are customers of "straight espresso". What can we do to service them?

Michael.

[Matthew Brinski]

I find parts of this thread to be valid, but I also think that some of the underlying (and some of the not so underlying) opinions are absurd.

A valid question raised by Abe is regarding the possibility of using different origins / roasts / blends for milk or straight espresso drinks. I am actually really surprised that Chris Tacy dismissed this practice so quickly. Just because a blend may do very well in both straight and milk drinks doesn't mean that such a particular approach is the only or best way to get to the end product.

There are choices that may shine as a straight shot while becoming "so so" in a milk drink, and then there are those which may contribute to the creation of a phenomenal macchiato or cappuccino while possessing undesirable characteristics as a straight shot. This is something that is probably more true when exploring single estates as espresso. People mention "espresso dogma". To me, the notion that it is only possible to truly experience and appreciate the potential of a particular coffee as an espresso is when it is without milk is just that ... dogma. I believe that milk drinks deserve just as much attention and tailoring as do the straight drinks.

What I find absurd about this whole thing is that a conversation such as this, especially in this type of forum, resonates the opinion of many home enthusiasts, while forming an opinion in others - the opinion being that the caliber of their espresso is second to none, including the 3'rd wave/artisan/specialty (whatever you want to call it) espresso bars that are currently leading the industry. From time to time, statements like "The espresso served to me at that shop was the best I ever had outside of what I make at home" or "The espresso I make is better than what is available at 99% of the shops across the country" are made by various members of this and other forums.

I think such opinion is ludicrous and largely unfounded. If I, a non-professional, find these statements frustrating, then I'm sure that the frustration felt by quality driven professionals is more so. The addition of comments like "lazy baristas" and "hype" probably don't promote the idea of raising the level of quality when read by professionals who perceive themselves as quality oriented. I don't think it promotes anything that is positive.

I remember posting a comment about an espresso I had at Gimme! in Brooklyn a couple of years ago. I posted that the shot was a bit on the sour side. When I look back on making that comment, I realize it was such a bullshit thing to do. Despite having five or six other shots that were fantastic, despite not bringing it to the attention of the barista, despite not engaging the staff in conversation about their thoughts of the coffee they were serving, I decided to post about my "bad" espresso because my small minded perception was that "online awareness" might promote increased consistency in quality. I still feel bad about making that remark.

I think real promotion of quality takes place when one on one conversations occur between the consumer and the barista / shop owner. It's more productive because not only is the shop getting specific feedback, but the consumer can get feedback on that shops particular intent as well. Maybe they are doing what they believe in, but the product is simply not to your taste.

Submitting vague online commentary about a perceived problem is easy. Engaging the staff one on one is where change and understanding can actually occur.

[JimWright]

If I understand you correctly Matt, you're really arguing that all restaurant/food reviews are unproductive because they don't "promote anything positive." This is something I've seen argued on forums before (I got into a harsh argument with a cafe owner on CG a year or two ago because he said it was "irresponsible" of me to post anything less than a stellar review).

While you may think "real promotion of quality takes place when one on one conversations occur between the consumer and the barista / shop owner," suffice it to say not only that many disagree on that specific point, but also that when people post their experiences, they're not doing it solely for the benefit of the establishment, but for the many others who want to know where they can get a better espresso/dinner/whatever.

To suggest that it's less than fair or productive for others to give their opinions on this is to say that consumers should all be forced to find good product on their own. Hogwash, I say (with all due respect ). And, not only is it fair for people to be able to find good espresso with the help of other reviewers, those reviews will certainly motivate a food service provider to improve, both through the direct feedback on what could be improved, and through the effect on business (if things are falling off after bad reviews, figure out the cause, turn it around, and publicize!). This is the free market at work, and at its best.

[Abe Carmeli]

I remember posting a comment about an espresso I had at Gimme! in Brooklyn a couple of years ago. I posted that the shot was a bit on the sour side. When I look back on making that comment, I realize it was such a bullshit thing to do. Despite having five or six other shots that were fantastic, despite not bringing it to the attention of the barista, despite not engaging the staff in conversation about their thoughts of the coffee they were serving, I decided to post about my "bad" espresso because my small minded perception was that "online awareness" might promote increased consistency in quality. I still feel bad about making that remark.

Those are all productive engagements with the baristas, and when possible one should do that. In a busy cafe, I noticed that it is often impossible. They are busy working on other drinks after they serve you. You are right to berate yourself for failing to mention the good shots you had there in your posting. Basic fairness would require that.

That however does not negate the validity & important role online reviews have in the food/beverage industry. I think Jim Wright put it well.

[Nick]

I think you are taking the title a little too literally. My point was not that the shot is disappearing but that its quality is declining.

Fair enough. I contend that you're very wrong about that. I know you've done some traveling and tasting. So have I. I won't ever discount your experiences, but for what it's worth, my experience is the opposite. Big time.

That is a good point. We are talking about a sensory experience here, and it cannot be totally detached from personal preferences. But saying that it will be only about my personal preferences would be pushing it too far. I've judged before, more than once at the USBC and regionals and I'll do my best to use the same tools when reviewing the straight shots. The problem of personal preference is inherent in every food/beverage review, and yet we all engage in them and value them despite it.

If you wish to use those same tools, then I challenge you to evaluate them comprehensively: sensory (taste, visual, etc.), presentation (customer service, explanation/descriptions), and technicals (shot times, waste, consistency, etc.). To utilize only the sensory elements lacks the comprehensive evaluation that would accompany the goal of education and information that I know you strive for.

[JimWright]

If you wish to use those same tools, then I challenge you to evaluate them comprehensively: sensory (taste, visual, etc.), presentation (customer service, explanation/descriptions), and technicals (shot times, waste, consistency, etc.). To utilize only the sensory elements lacks the comprehensive evaluation that would accompany the goal of education and information that I know you strive for.

Nick, would you suggest that reviews of food require all these elements to be useful? The full set of competition judging criteria is certainly broader than a conventional food review - while sensory and presentation are both fair to evaluate, relatively few restaurant reviews address technical items like waste or cooking technique behind the door (e.g., shot times, which for most people are irrelevant as a consumer of espresso).

[Kuban111]

Nick, would you suggest that reviews of food require all these elements to be useful? The full set of competition judging criteria is certainly broader than a conventional food review - while sensory and presentation are both fair to evaluate, relatively few restaurant reviews address technical items like waste or cooking technique behind the door (e.g., shot times, which for most people are irrelevant as a consumer of espresso).

Jim, those are valid points you bring up.
My only hesitation /questioning in thinking are, unless if those are the standards that coffee owners in artisan shops abide by???

Michael

[JimWright]

That's fair Michael - I guess the real question is who the review is for.

If it's for consumers, that stuff probably doesn't matter so much, if for pros, or even for serious amateurs, then maybe it's meaningful. I, for one, would be curious about average waste, shot timing, etc., at various high end/3rd wave coffee providers, but the folks actually deeply engaged here would be more interested in that than the average consumer. (Then again, if we're the H-B audience, maybe it's worth Abe including even if not particularly relevant to the masses... though where I can get a genuinely good espresso would be a great start on its own...)

Then again (again), measuring the technical items might be difficult in some cafe environments without actually getting behind the counter, and therefore tampering with the environment and breaking the independence of the review.

[Mike White]

I remember posting a comment about an espresso I had at Gimme! in Brooklyn a couple of years ago. I posted that the shot was a bit on the sour side. When I look back on making that comment, I realize it was such a bullshit thing to do. Despite having five or six other shots that were fantastic, despite not bringing it to the attention of the barista, despite not engaging the staff in conversation about their thoughts of the coffee they were serving, I decided to post about my "bad" espresso because my small minded perception was that "online awareness" might promote increased consistency in quality. I still feel bad about making that remark.

I think real promotion of quality takes place when one on one conversations occur between the consumer and the barista / shop owner. It's more productive because not only is the shop getting specific feedback, but the consumer can get feedback on that shops particular intent as well. Maybe they are doing what they believe in, but the product is simply not to your taste.

Matthew, you're forgiven . The shot may very well have been off. The only unfortunate part in my mind is that the barista wasn't made aware. If they hadn't tried one recently they would been unaware and unable to fix the problem, be it machine or technique related. As the "pros" know, shot quality changes frequently during the day and require constant adjustment and tasting. They may not have tasted one immediately prior to you coming in.

For what it's worth we provide comment cards in our stores for this purpose (as well as an online feedback form on our website).

Home Baristas have to admit that when they fire up the old Silvia in the morning, they often have to discard a shot or two before being satisfied with their results. The so called "god shot" is elusive for a reason. When pulling hundreds and hundreds a day, it requires dozens and dozens of samples to stay in tune with the product. This is hard to do.

That said, when espresso drinkers order shots, I always ask "how is it?". If they seem displeased in any way, that's when the games begin. We tweak dose and grind and try again. The customer usually walks away pleased and extremely caffeinated (and more aware of what we're doing back there), and i've gained valuable feedback about the shots i haven't tried in an hour or two.

This whole conversation is really about perspective (on a variety of levels). I'm just offering mine from the other side of the counter...

[Mike White]

Abe, by the way, if you'd like to spend 8 hours behind the bar pulling hundreds of shots, tasting them every 20 minutes, you'd be more than welcome! I wouldn't mind seeing your review of that!

[Abe Carmeli]

That said, when espresso drinkers order shots, I always ask "how is it?".

I can attest to that part. And I liked it when you asked.

If they seem displeased in any way, that's when the games begin. We tweak dose and grind and try again. The customer usually walks away pleased and extremely caffeinated (and more aware of what we're doing back there), and i've gained valuable feedback about the shots i haven't tried in an hour or two.

Lucky for me, you nailed it on the first one. For those who missed that review, A Visit to Gimme's New Shop in Manhattan

[JimWright]

Interesting post Mike, and you make a strong point re: how difficult it is to stay in tune when you can't continually sample without caffeine toxicity.

But on asking, I think you're in the minority - I think I could count the number of times I've been asked how it was on my fingers, and even when I was asked, I was not really comfortable giving an honest answer most of the time. (Sounds like your operation is much better than average!)

The baristas at most busy cafes probably do not feel they have time for this. Also, I think if people are going to ask as an effective method of tuning (to the extent that's possible in any event), it has to be more than perfunctory - maybe ask if you could be adjusting any brew parameters, or how it rates comparatively, or something else actively soliciting a response other than "fine", to make clear that you really want input rather than just asking out of habit...?

[Abe Carmeli]

Abe, by the way, if you'd like to spend 8 hours behind the bar pulling hundreds of shots, tasting them every 20 minutes, you'd be more than welcome! I wouldn't mind seeing your review of that!

Mike, my worst day in coffee was last February in Chicago, when I was judging the Great Lakes Barista Championship. After downing 18 drinks, Matt Riddle insisted that the judges drink his shots and not leave a drop in the cup, "cause all the sweetness was in the bottom". I tell you, that bottom was not so sweet to me. So, I'll pass on your fine offer, but I wouldn't mind pulling a few shots for your customers next time I'm in your store.