Diedrich Home Sample Roaster; reflections on larger home roasters - Page 3

[Ken Fox]

Has Garanti makes a 1 kg capacity roaster. Mine is electric.

-Greg

Hi Greg,

I thought yours was a 2kg roaster. Oh well. I also think their stuff is more expensive and probably out of the range of what I have been discussing.

Best,

ken

[DaveC]

After going to their website and looking through the literature, I'll venture that they've got a good track record. And from what you've added Dave, I'll also venture that they're built like a brick house. And for that reason alone, I don't think that machine, or any roaster, will ever find its way into our home!

I'm right back to where I was, in so far as thinking that coffee roasting belongs in the garage or outside. Unless I'm doing something wrong (?) my Hottop has a post-roast odor that I think comes primarily from the filter, and then from the baked on residue on the some of the venting hardware. Even when I've roasted on the balcony of our old townhouse, the smell found its way all the way up to the third floor. In our new digs, and as we have much more room, I roll it up to the side door to the garage. I also open one of the garage doors to allow a flow of air; all that for a Hottop. Even with venting, I really don't understand how a roaster can be put inside an enclosed living space?

You're right they do have a good track record and also correct when you say they are not suitable for the home. You need a Garage/Workshop, with venting for the machine, as you do get plenty of smoke.

However, if you want to roast inside, you are limieted to the Hottop or the Gene Cafe (The Gene with the larger chaff collector that takes a 100mm vent hose attachment) etc. . Even so, I personally don't use a roaster in my house and never would....my god, imagine if the beans caught fire! Oh, yeah, Hottops absolutely stink once they get a bit older, especially if you don't keep em really clean and that filter at the back really hums a bit after 10 or so roasts (inside there is also a build up of crap around the filter area). A few people cleaning up their basic hottops for sale (they were replacing with gene Cafes, interestingly enough), found areas of trapped gunk, you would never believe were there.

I must confess to also being puzzled about this obsession with getting "commercial roasters"...unless you are in business, or have some other reason for doing so, it's really not worth it. I only use my Toper now if I have a need for a lot of coffee quickly. For my personal and family use, I always use my Gene Cafe. The Gene is an easy roaster to use, but a hardish roaster to use well. Once you learn how though, the results (and the production rate) can usually exceed anything that can be produced in a basic Hottop and even my Toper. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers advice on roasting on the Gene, leaves much to be desired!

[RapidCoffee]

However, if you want to roast inside, you are limieted to the Hottop or the Gene Cafe (The Gene with the larger chaff collector that takes a 100mm vent hose attachment). Even so, I personally don't use a roaster in my house and never would....my god, imagine if the beans caught fire!

Another option is the AeroRost. I roast indoors all through the winter in my fireplace:


smoke goes up the chimney, as long as you get a good draw started

I've had coffee beans catch fire twice, and yes, it is a scary experience. In my experience, this hazard increases with larger batch size. I can only recommend the AeroRost if you upgrade to the stainless steel drum, and keep well below the maximum rated bean load of 2 lbs. But otherwise it's been a good little roaster, allowing 2-3X the batch size of the Gene or Hottop for a comparable price.


1.5# Kenya, roasted in the AeroRost

[Ken Fox]

I must confess to also being puzzled about this obsession with getting "commercial roasters"...unless you are in business, or have some other reason for doing so, it's really not worth it. I only use my Toper now if I have a need for a lot of coffee quickly. For my personal and family use, I always use my Gene Cafe. The Gene is an easy roaster to use, but a hardish roaster to use well. Once you learn how though, the results (and the production rate) can usually exceed anything that can be produced in a basic Hottop and even my Toper. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers advice on roasting on the Gene, leaves much to be desired!

It depends on how much roasting you want or have to do, how much time you want to devote to roasting, and how much control you want over the process. I roast for a friend and his family in addition to myself; he is my internist and it is one way that I reciprocate for routine medical care I receive. I also believe that freezing works well to preserve coffee and am able to have a variety of coffees stored in the freezer, for use at any time, by keeping a stash there. This enables me to roast less frequently and since I have other hobbies, interests, and responsibilities, I like the freedom that larger batch roasting gives me.

But I also believe there is a quality issue. Most or perhaps all of the consumer level roasters do not offer anything close to the control of roast profile and roast level that can get with my sample roaster. Granted, you can modify most anything with a PID or somesuch, but that is an extra step, a complication, and one that costs additional money.

With my roaster, I can reliably profile roasts to be nearly identical, time after time, and to terminate them within 1 degree F on the final roast temperature. I am certain that I would find any of the unmodified consumer level roasters to be highly frustrating as I really do want to control the roast parameters more closely than could be done easily with them.

ken

[farmroast]

I have been working on a 1kg pro-sumer/commercial type roaster design for about a year. So far the design part has been the easiest part of the effort. Finding off the shelf adaptable parts, having small quantities of custom parts built reasonably, costs of safety certifications, patents, lawyers, liabilities, considering involving investors, etc. are the complicated parts. So far the roast results I've had with my prototype have been amazing. Super even, very controllable, clean electric heat, constant chaff removal, quick cooling etc. It is also not easy to gauge the demand for this type of a roaster. My roaster is neither a drum type or a hot air fluid bed type which means that one must also think "outside the box so to speak"to understand, which was easy for me at the beginning because I new little of what existed but for those who have been in the biz for awhile is more difficult. Ed PS the roaster in my pic or on my blog site is not my newest roaster

[Espressyned]

So what are the practical things I take issue with? For one thing, the price is simply way above what most dedicated home roasters would pay; around $5000 plus crating and shipping if you want such "optional" things as a cooling tray.
ken

Is the price of this roaster really 5K? and is the cooling tray really an option?

The price on the sales brochure you linked to starts at $3,800.00...

[Ken Fox]

Is the price of this roaster really 5K? and is the cooling tray really an option?

The price on the sales brochure you linked to starts at $3,800.00...

If you go for all the visual upgrades, the price is about $5000, which I believe does not include the crating or the shipping cost, which are considerable. If you take the very most basic model, which does not look like the one in the picture, it might be $3800 for that version, which is not going to look very good in your custom kitchen.

I had occasion to see one of these basic models a week ago, in Vancouver Canada, at the roasting plant and offices of Ethical Bean. I even got to see it roast coffee, courtesy of Aaron De Lazzer, who was giving me a tour there.

The basic model does not have the coloration nor the stainless accents nor the stainless cooling tray.

Aaron confirmed my suspicions about two issues with this roaster; for one thing, it does NOT cool the beans well in the cooling tray if you roast anywhere near stated capacity. This will depend on what you consider to be an adequate rate of cooling, but this roaster cools 4oz of beans no faster than my roaster cools a pound (2 minutes). Secondly, chaff removal is not very good and the beans get dumped with residual chaff. My roaster has this problem as well, probably worse than the Diedrich Home Roaster, and it is an annoyance.

ken

[alsterlingcafe]

......Aaron confirmed my suspicions about two issues with this roaster; for one thing, it does NOT cool the beans well in the cooling tray if you roast anywhere near stated capacity. This will depend on what you consider to be an adequate rate of cooling, but this roaster cools 4oz of beans no faster than my roaster cools a pound (2 minutes). Secondly, chaff removal is not very good and the beans get dumped with residual chaff. My roaster has this problem as well, probably worse than the Diedrich Home Roaster, and it is an annoyance. ken

Ken, as you know, and as other owners have shared, even though the cooling system is considered good on the Hottops, I've started putting a box fan on the top of my roasting cart after the Hottop ejects and goes into cooling mode. I resolved two issues. The beans cool off in a few minutes; much faster than with the downdraft fan and the stirring wand alone. And because the box fan blows air over the "entire unit" I'm ready to roast in less than half the usual time. (The Hottop won't roast if it doesn't cool down below 150 deg. F.)

Another benefit of the box fan is that I can pour the beans from a container above the fan, into a collander or whatever. During the free-fall of the beans, all the chaff is blown out. I put the roasting cart at the side door of the garage, which allows the smoke, chaff and whatever to simply blow outside into the side slope garden.

Here's an observation about the commercial roasting firms I've visited. Most of the technician-roasters have "jerry rigged" or added their own cooling systems. Seems few of the people I've visited are satisfied with the cooling as it is. Maybe it's because many of the roasters are older units that have large capacities, but weren't supplied with or don't have satisfactory cooling systems.

Hottop Digital on Roller Cart

[Teme]

Coming in late to the discussion, but I have been thinking of getting a decent roaster. I have found that there are a couple of roasters available for around the same or less money than the Diedrich:

As far as I understand, on this one you can control drum rpm, airflow and the heating. It is gas powered and available in sizes (500g or 1kg batch). Price for the smaller one is around €2000 (don't know about the larger one): http://www.coffeeclub.hk/roaster_en.htm

Dave already mentioned Toper's 1kg roaster, the Cafemino that costs €3000 in Europe (the Diedrich would be €5000 here) and is available in either electric or gas configurations. Here's the link: http://www.toper.com.tr/default.a..._id=165&urun_id=47

Pinhalense has a couple of sample rosters in a design similar to the Jabez Burs / Probat. As far as I know, these cost around $1000 ex factory. I have emailed them for details: http://www.pinhalense.com.br/equip-i-tc0.htm#caract (and there's another model pictured below):


There are a few more (some of these are electric, some gas, some are available in both configurations):

Coffee-Tech has the Maggiolino and the Torrefattore: http://www.coffee-tech.com/produc...ers_maggiolino.htm
DiScaf has the TN-1: http://www.discaf.com/english/tostadora-tn1.htm
Roure has the E1-A: http://www.rouretectosa.com/en/roasters-E1-A.html
Mecamau has the Torrefattore Domestico: http://www.mecamau.com.br/produtosmeca/torradordom.html
US Roastercorp has the RH test roaster: http://www.usroastercorp.com/sample.htm
HasGaranti has a 1kg roaster (as has already been mentioned): http://www.hasgaranti.com.tr/tabletoproasters.php
San Franciscan offers the SF-1: http://www.coffeeper.com/SF-1LB.html
OZcaffe has a 2kg roaster in either electric or gas (scroll down the page): http://www.ozcaffe.com/22194.html

There's more, but I guess those are the most attractive ones... ...I am interested...

Br,
Teme

[Jacob]

Try call Mogens http://www.byras.dk/default.asp?mainmenu=2&dir=&webmanage=Kafferister
I'm not sure exactly which roaster, but by now he should have imported a not to expensive roaster of the size you are looking for. Could be the small Roure or one from Portugal

Edit 24/8: Talked to Mogens today. It was the small Roure and something like 3500 euro + tax.

[Rainman]

Hey, thanks for all the links, Teme! That picture in your post looks like one of the roasters Tom Owen imported from Brazil a few years ago, and very similar to the one Ken Fox has (although I think he upgraded the burner and bought a very good thermocouple). I'm sorta interested in the same- and the more I think about it, would rather not part with $7-8k. The search goes on... I'm sure another thousand dollars would go into the necessary upgrades along w/ data logging equipment and software- would still be ahead by quite a lot. One thing would still linger in the back of my mind (because I find myself in a sort of permanent experimental phase of this hobby)-- will it work as well?

hmmmm.... how I wish there were some good books written on the subject of building a good drum roaster to serve as a reference for such a project.

To answer DaveC's question about why people are pursuing commercial, semi-commercial or "sample" roasters- to me it's about durability, dependability and having control over the roast profile-- all that having accurate temp monitoring. I can figure out the data logging if I know I have a good roaster with a well-placed thermocouple in the beans to give me meaningful data, but I have to trust the equipment-- and I know where that's going ($$$$$$...)

Ray

[Teme]

Pinhalense has a couple of sample rosters in a design similar to the Jabez Burs / Probat. As far as I know, these cost around $1000 ex factory. I have emailed them for details: http://www.pinhalense.com.br/equip-i-tc0.htm#caract (and there's another model pictured below):

Turns out that the electric version is no longer available. However, the single barrel gas-fired one pictured in my earlier post is $1400 including shipping to Europe (cheaper for US I assume)...

Br,
Teme

[Rainman]

Teme- is that for the fancy brass model? Did you find out anything about temp management- not just turning up the heat on the burner, but adjusting air flow and measuring temp? I'm assumming at that price, you're probably on your own for at least most if not all of that.

Ken (I'm hoping he's still watching this thread)- this looks similar to your setup; where did you end up getting your gas jet and thermocouples from?

Ray

[Ken Fox]

Teme- is that for the fancy brass model? Did you find out anything about temp management- not just turning up the heat on the burner, but adjusting air flow and measuring temp? I'm assumming at that price, you're probably on your own for at least most if not all of that.

Ken (I'm hoping he's still watching this thread)- this looks similar to your setup; where did you end up getting your gas jet and thermocouples from?

Ray

Ray,

The gas burner came from Charles A. Hones Co., a smallish manufacturer of furnaces and related items. They are/were located in New York, and used to have the somewhat amusing web address of http://www.cahones.com

Presumably someone pointed out to them how that URL might be otherwise interpreted, and they either have a new web address or have simply eliminated the website (I've had no contact with that company since buying the burner). This burner was located for me by Barry Jarrett, who found the same burner on an authentic Probat/Burns type roaster, a roaster that presumably was a model for my roaster, which is a knockoff.

The Thermocouple came from Omega; they will make virtually anything for you, to your specifications, if you are willing to design it yourself and to wait a couple of weeks for fabrication.

The most difficult part was bending the probe so as to get it into the middle of the rotating bean mass, while avoiding having it get chewed up by the roaster drum's stirring vanes.

ken

[Rainman]

Ray,

The gas burner came from Charles A. Hones Co., a smallish manufacturer of furnaces and related items. They are/were located in New York, and used to have the somewhat amusing web address of http://www.cahones.com

Presumably someone pointed out to them how that URL might be otherwise interpreted, and they either have a new web address or have simply eliminated the website (I've had no contact with that company since buying the burner). This burner was located for me by Barry Jarrett, who found the same burner on an authentic Probat/Burns type roaster, a roaster that presumably was a model for my roaster, which is a knockoff.

The Thermocouple came from Omega; they will make virtually anything for you, to your specifications, if you are willing to design it yourself and to wait a couple of weeks for fabrication.

The most difficult part was bending the probe so as to get it into the middle of the rotating bean mass, while avoiding having it get chewed up by the roaster drum's stirring vanes.

ken

I like it! What better name for a company making propane parts could there be?

Guess I'll have to wait for contact from Pinhalense (and maybe receiving the roaster, if I buy that one) before figuring out which burner I need. How did you go about designing a thermocouple? I'd think whichever one you got would probably work for this machine... maybe?

Ray

[Ken Fox]

How did you go about designing a thermocouple? I'd think whichever one you got would probably work for this machine.

Ray

First, I took a metal coat hanger and unbent it to have a piece of metal I could use for mock-up purposes. You could use any sort of rigid and bendable wire for this.

Then, I took the coat hanger wire and I bent it in a way that would allow me to attach it to the outside of the roaster where it would be held in place, then into the body of the drum in a place that would be near the rotating center of the bean mass. Once I got the mockup bent, I taped it to the outside of the drum where I intended to permanently mount the probe later.

Then, with the drum cool and not heated, I put a the charge weight of green beans (1lb in the case of my roaster) into the drum, then turned on the motor to get the drum turning. I discovered that the probe could (unintentionally) serve as a pathway for beans to track and fly out of the roaster! By examining things with a flash light I saw that I would need to put an extra "kink" in the probe as it approached the tryer hole, that would direct the beans towards the top of the drum and not towards the tryer hole where they could fly out.

After I got the probe mockup completed, I took a ruler and measured its approximate length (does not need to be exact; too long is better than too short). I then called Omega and ordered a stainless steel ensheathed K-type probe that was of the right length and that had temperature resistant wire wrapping at the far end.

When the probe was delivered, I bent it, following the guide I had made with my coat-hanger mockup, then I used some copper tubing cut in pieces, with some high temperature epoxy ("JB Weld") to attach it permanently to the outside of the drum.







And, here is a picture of the Cahones burner:



ken

[Teme]

is that for the fancy brass model?

No, that is for the single barrel and less fancy looking one. A two barrel version with fancier looks is about $1000 more (and my understanding is that the single barrel version of this fancier model is no longer available).

Did you find out anything about temp management- not just turning up the heat on the burner, but adjusting air flow and measuring temp? I'm assumming at that price, you're probably on your own for at least most if not all of that.

I did not ask since I thought that in all roasters of this type you can only control the heat (not the airflow or the rpm).

Br,
Teme

[Rainman]

...here is a picture of the Cahones burner:

ken

Hmm.. not quite what I thought. For some reason, I envisioned something elongated w/ maybe 6-8 holes running along the bottom of the drum. This looks like it is mounted vertically on the back of the drum and may have a fan behind it. Ken, please forgive the 20 questions, but if that's how it works, does chaffe blow out toward you through the front of the roaster- or is there no fan, and you roast mostly by radiant heat?

Ray

[Ken Fox]

Hmm.. not quite what I thought. For some reason, I envisioned something elongated w/ maybe 6-8 holes running along the bottom of the drum. This looks like it is mounted vertically on the back of the drum and may have a fan behind it. Ken, please forgive the 20 questions, but if that's how it works, does chaffe blow out toward you through the front of the roaster- or is there no fan, and you roast mostly by radiant heat?

Ray

I'm not completely understanding your questions. The drum itself is perforated but only on the back. The flame from the burner contacts the bottom (unperforated) part of the drum as it rotates. There is a fan which mostly serves to cool the coffee in the cooling tray after roasted beans are dumped there, but there is an (uncontrollable) flow of air through the roaster that the fan has an impact upon. About 10 or 20% of the chaff does (mysteriously) end up in a chaff tray below the drum, but I"m not sure how it gets there. The majority of the chaff is mixed in with the coffee at the end of the roast. I get rid of the chaff by dumping the roasted coffee into a wire mesh basket and putting that over a strong fan that is on the floor. It blows the chaff up and out. I am now wearing safety glasses when I do this as the swirling chaff has gotten into my eyes a few times, and once or twice caused small and annoying corneal abrasions.

ken

[Rainman]

I'm not completely understanding your questions. The drum itself is perforated but only on the back. The flame from the burner contacts the bottom (unperforated) part of the drum as it rotates. There is a fan which mostly serves to cool the coffee in the cooling tray after roasted beans are dumped there, but there is an (uncontrollable) flow of air through the roaster that the fan has an impact upon. About 10 or 20% of the chaff does (mysteriously) end up in a chaff tray below the drum, but I"m not sure how it gets there. The majority of the chaff is mixed in with the coffee at the end of the roast. I get rid of the chaff by dumping the roasted coffee into a wire mesh basket and putting that over a strong fan that is on the floor. It blows the chaff up and out. I am now wearing safety glasses when I do this as the swirling chaff has gotten into my eyes a few times, and once or twice caused small and annoying corneal abrasions.

ken

That's a pretty clear description (thank you)- sounds like you kinda do a similar thing as I do by cooling via wire mesh basket over a fan. Most of my chaffe though, swirls out of my sc/to onto a pan I have sitting just in front of my contraption.. the remaining chaffe (I'm guessing ~10-15%?) gets blown off afterward during cooling. For some reason, I thought your entire drum was perforated along the circumference (not just the back panel, which I figured was a way for a fan to gently propel hot air current into the drum from behind and therefore, impart heat to the beans via convection rather than radiant heat as it sounds like it does). That's ok, because it definitely sounds like you achieve an awesome roast by reading your posts over the past year or two- it's just a little more different than my current sc/to setup (obviously) and I'll need to go through a bit of a learning curve (no doubt, there) getting used to it.

Thanks, Ken.

Ray