Diagnose my espresso problem(s)?

[c0bra]

I got my Silvia from the UPS guy last night and set out to make my First Shot of Espresso Ever (TM). Even though I had never attempted this before, I figured with all that I've read and watched off the web I should be able to make something at least half-way drinkable. I was wrong.

I went and got some random Whole Foods "Espresso" beans to test with. I didn't want to use anything that I would regret tossing in the trash, but I also didn't want beans that wouldn't work at all, and I figured these would be a happy medium. I followed the priming and cleansing instructions and got Silvia all heated up, then went to grind the beans in my Solis Maestro. Now I know the SM isn't really best choice for consistent espresso grinds, but I don't have a Rocky or a Mazzer (yet), so it's what I've got for now. Dialing in a grind that "looked" okay was a little hard. I found that I could only get the grind setting down between "Turkish" and "Espresso" before I heard a horrid squealing noise, and backed it off from that. Even then I was able to get grounds that clumped together when pressed, so I backed it further off till they appeared to be "like granulated sugar, but finer."

My aluminum tamper doesn't arrive till Friday, so I'm stuck with the stock Rancilio plastic thing until then. Is this thing even supposed to fit the filter basket? It seems like there's an awful lot of room on the sides when I tamp. I got out the scale and tried to make each tamp at around 30 lbs, then polished it a bit. It still didn't look super-even in the basket, but passable, I suppose.

Then I brewed. And the espresso shot came out. Fast. Each set of double shots that I made came out in about 10 seconds, in fact. The slowest I got was about 20 seconds for 2.0oz and it still appeared to progress from dark to blonde very quickly. The end product was watery, and bitter, and hot, and tasted burnt. I wasn't really sure where to start diagnosing the problem, since the tamper is crap (the person using the tamper is also crap, at least for experience), and I have no frame of reference for what my grinder should be doing. Since I don't have a naked portafilter, I'm not really sure what's going on in there. Maybe the tamp is off so there's separation/channeling somewhere that allows the water to run right through? The spent grounds seemed okay, then came out of the filter basket in one big clump when knocked, and there was an impression from the screen screw (or whatever it's called). Perhaps the grind settings that work is a very small set and I was stepping through too large a range?

Thoughts? I know there's probably a lot I'm doing wrong but I'm hoping to get some of it corrected so I can make some progress.

Thanks in advance!

P.S. I also noticed that the brew group screen has grounds on it after each shot, so I have to flush it into the portafilter and dump that if I want the water heating my cups to be clean and not brown. Is that normal?

[HB]

Even though I had never attempted this before, I figured with all that I've read and watched off the web I should be able to make something at least half-way drinkable. I was wrong.

That's understandably discouraging, but it's normal, especially for new Silvia owners.

I went and got some random Whole Foods "Espresso" beans to test with. I didn't want to use anything that I would regret tossing in the trash, but I also didn't want beans that wouldn't work at all, and I figured these would be a happy medium.

Despite the cost, I recommend getting fresh roasted coffee (see Three good beginner espressos for suggestions). I've tried Whole Foods in our area in moments of desperation. It's hit and miss at best. I look at this way: You've spent over $600 in equipment, why frustrate yourself to save $30?

Now I know the SM isn't really best choice for consistent espresso grinds, but I don't have a Rocky or a Mazzer (yet), so it's what I've got for now.

The original SM or the SM+? I wasn't able to make the original SM perform, though I've heard the Plus is better.

Then I brewed. And the espresso shot came out. Fast. Each set of double shots that I made came out in about 10 seconds, in fact. The slowest I got was about 20 seconds for 2.0oz and it still appeared to progress from dark to blonde very quickly. The end product was watery, and bitter, and hot, and tasted burnt.

An iffy coffee, iffy grinder, and an unforgiving espresso machine. Producing a decent espresso would be a tall order. But to get us on the same page, please review previous threads and their references, for example: Best step by step guide to Silvia use? and Problems with my new Rancilio Silvia. Jon's My attempt - Silvia and Rocky, the video is also revealing.

P.S. I also noticed that the brew group screen has grounds on it after each shot, so I have to flush it into the portafilter and dump that if I want the water heating my cups to be clean and not brown. Is that normal?

Yes.

[2xlp]

Don't bother trying to make anything until you get the tamper. You're just going to frustrate yourself.

Just forget about the machine until it arrives.

[c0bra]

I've tried Whole Foods in our area in moments of desperation. It's hit and miss at best.

A friend told me that he found their coffee to be roasted no longer than a week ago, which is why I tried it. But even then, I should be able to get 2.0z in 25 seconds, right? It will just taste bad with the wrong beans.

The original SM or the SM+?

The SM+.

I've read most or all of those posts and articles. I don't think I've seen the video, though. I'll watch that now.

Thanks!

[HB]

A friend told me that he found their coffee to be roasted no longer than a week ago, which is why I tried it. But even then, I should be able to get 2.0z in 25 seconds, right? It will just taste bad with the wrong beans.

You originally said, "The end product was watery, and bitter, and hot, and tasted burnt"; my first thought was dry, old beans, gusher extraction, and an improper temperature surf.

The freshness of the coffees at Whole Foods in our area is all over the map. I spoke with a roaster who sells their coffees there and he complained that he had to negotiate down to 60 days shelf life from their standard 90 days. Maybe things have changed since, but at the time, the roast date was encoded. Personally I recommend going with a sure thing.

You'll find more question and answers in the threads I noted (e.g., "Have you adjusted the brew pressure?"). If you post a video like Jon's, I'll be happy to offer more suggestions. Life with Silvia is a two-edged sword; the machine delivers a lot of performance in a well constructed box and there's literally GIGABYTES of information on it. The reason there's so much information isn't just it's popularity, but also the challenges "Miss Silvia" presents to her suitors.

The problem is on the handle side of the portafilter includes my mini-rant on the subject, excerpted below:

Surfing forces paying attention to shot flow and crema color and of course taste! Thermofilter measurements have mostly only confirmed what I'd already observed about Silvia, now quantified. If barista techniques on an unmodded Silvia can allow you to serve shots to the likes of Tom Owens without fear of disgrace, then the handle end of the PF skills easily transferable and adapted to other machines, even modded Silvia.

I will also disagree with the assertion that time spent on Silvia is well invested. Let's face facts: It's a fussy machine with a mountain of research behind it. But someone starting from scratch on the next level machine (essentially every machine reviewed to-date on this site except Silvia) would have better results in a shorter amount of time with less frustration. I don't know of anyone who has returned their upgrade from Silvia under a "no remorse" policy. Chris' recent comments about the GS3 describe the end game:

One of the really nice things about the GS3 is that it allows the barista to focus on what truly matters... the coffee. In a sense, the machine becomes transparent. Over the last week I've started to notice that I spend less and less time paying attention to the machine. Everyone once and a while I get fixated on tweaking something or testing something... but this usually lasts for an hour or so at the most. What has been really interesting to me of late is the coffees that I've been tasting.

The GS3 really allows you to taste and evaluate and explore these coffees. My not creating additional tasks and challenges - by not demanding your attention - and by not imparting its own flavours and affects on the results in the cup it frees you up to really focus on the flavours and taste in the cup.

This, to me, is very cool.

I'm not suggesting the solution is to drop five grand on a machine. Rather that there's a huge gain going from the next level above Silvia (usually in the $800-$1200 range). No doubt there is an added gain to upgrading to a GS3 or Synesso class machine, however the return relative to cost are dramatically reduced. It's unpopular to criticize Silvia. The machine is capable of very good espresso, in the right hands. It isn't however high on my recommended list, especially since the price difference between Silvia (~$500) and the next level up representing entry-level HXs has narrowed to ~$200.

Later Chris Tacy added:

The whole "learn on a hard to use platform" theory is something that I've heard applied in other areas and in general I tend to disagree with it in all areas. I've seen it proposed in education, in driving, in cooking, in photography and in music. I don't feel it works anywhere.


In general...

First - doing so is incredibly frustrating and is likely to result in people giving up. A learning curve that allows for early positive feedback results in increased confidence which results in more effective learning and a willingness to fight through plateaus in development.

Second - learning skills that will be unneeded as one progresses is, IMHO, a waste of time and energy.

Third - in general, hard to use platforms tend to teach people to develop work-arounds and bodge solutions that become engrained and turn into bad habits once not using that platform. The unlearning process is usually harder than the learning process.


With espresso in particular I find that there is an additional flaw in the argument. The most common challenge for beginning baristas is not knowing what good espresso should taste like. This is a complaint we hear over and over again. The "if it tastes good to you it's good" argument fails for these people as the espresso is rarely good tasting for them early on with hard to use platforms. As a result, people tend to become calibrated to "acceptable" espresso rather than good espresso and often start drinking espresso in other forms that are more palatable (with sugar, in milk, etc.). People also tend to gravitate towards a particular type of espresso - a forgiving, darker roasted and low acidity coffee. Over time, people start to associate the flavour profile of this "acceptable" espresso with high quality. In other words, they lower the bar. This, to me, is the biggest problem with the argument.


In general, I think it is unrealistic for those who have fought through the process of becoming a barista on a "hard to use platform" and become successful despite the challenge to claim that this is the best solution for everyone. Just because you ended up being a barista - despite the challenges and despite the additional arbitrary hurdles you crossed - doesn't mean this is the best solution. There are a ton of good baristas out there who have never used such a machine.

Making it harder on yourself than it needs to be seems, in conclusion, to be unneccessary, counter-productive and at some level masochistic.

[c0bra]

HB & 2xlp,

Thanks for your help. I shall try to find some fresh beans somewhere in this city. Barring that I've got a couple espresso blends coming from Sweet Maria's that I can roast up. I was hoping to not have to "waste" them on the learning process, but that's no big deal.

As far as temperature surfing goes, I haven't been able to separate the stuff out there on the net between what's right for the 110c thermostat and what's right for the 100. I'm assuming that as my machine is new, it's got the 100c. Is the 2 minute reverse temperature surf still applicable?

I think I sort-of knew what I was getting myself into when I bought Silvia, in regards to her finickiness. I guess I just didn't realize how little of whatever theoretical knowledge I had I could actually put into practice from the get-go.

[jesawdy]

I shall try to find some fresh beans somewhere in this city.

If you update your profile to include your locale, someone here might be able to help you .

[2xlp]

Don't homeroast your espresso.

You just got the machine. Homeroasting adds so many variables to your system.

Order a few pounds of Cafe Fresco's Ambrosia, or another forgiving blend. I hear good things about Kid O. Get to know the machine -- too many things can go wrong with home roasting, and you'll be pressed to figure out where the issues are (the roast, the extraction ?)

In terms of Whole Foods - in NYC they have microroasted stuff that is older than dirt. They carry a local and national 'brand'.
They also have their own stuff that they roast on premises in fluid bed roasters. i think in 5lb batches. not sure. finally, they also have their own stuff that is roasted off-site and older. in any event, they always have at least 10 coffees roasted within 2 days with the dates on them.

[c0bra]

If you update your profile to include your locale, someone here might be able to help you .

I suppose that's true I'm in Kansas City.

[c0bra]

Don't homeroast your espresso.

I've been roasting for a couple years now, with pretty consistent results. You're right about adding variables though. I guess I'll just have to find some good local coffee. I'd rather not have to wait for more to be shipped to me.

[shayner]

Get some Roasterie Super Tuscan or Organic Espresso beans. I've had good luck with both. You can try the retail locater on their site but I've had better luck buying beans from shops. But, they stamp the roast date so you could get lucky at your local price chopper.

[c0bra]

Get some Roasterie Super Tuscan or Organic Espresso beans. I've had good luck with both. You can try the retail locater on their site but I've had better luck buying beans from shops. But, they stamp the roast date so you could get lucky at your local price chopper.

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to head out to PT's Coffee tonight and pick up some stuff.

[shayner]

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to head out to PT's Coffee tonight and pick up some stuff.

They won't have The Roasterie's blends but PT's La Bella Vita blend is nice.

[TonyB]

Despite the cost, I recommend getting fresh roasted coffee (see Three good beginner espressos for suggestions). I've tried Whole Foods in our area in moments of desperation. It's hit and miss at best. I look at this way: You've spent over $600 in equipment, why frustrate yourself to save $30?

I've had Silvia now for over a year and am still striving for consistency. I'm hoping the new PID that I ordered will help things along tremendously... the Temp surfing is getting old.. and is still inconsistent.

The roasted coffee I have purchased on line or homeroasted was night and day from what I could even get from my local roaster. I don't think the local roaster has much volume turnaround on his espresso blend... My point is, just because you have a local roaster, doesn't mean they are any good at their craft or offer fresh roasted beans from their hoppers.... I even tried them again a few weeks ago with the same awful results. I'll never buy there again.. especially at the $12/lb they want to charge for it. I can get fresh roasted great tasting stuff online for the same price or for $1-2 more including shipping.

When beginning, I noticed the same problems you are having. If I used old or overroasted blends (such as anything from the supermarket or even my local roaster as noted above) no matter how fine the grind or hard the tamp, or diligent in my technique, I would get thin, bitter, awful espresso... they would all be tossed, or turned into an instant mediocre Americano.

Then I finally broke down and ordered some roasted beans from Sweet Maria's... a Night and Day difference... I got better shots with the well roasted fresh online stuff even when my dose, tamp, and grind were all less than adequate...

At that point I tried a few different online roasters... all with great results.. some I liked better than others, but all provided me with the ability to get an adequate espresso with my less than adequate skills.

I do still order roasted beans on occasion, but mostly I now buy green blends and roast in a popcorn popper. Even poorly roasted beans work out better than my local roaster or supermarket blends, and at a fraction of the cost. It's really not as difficult as some may make it out to be... It's one of those things that you get out what you put into it..

Myself, I don't expect or aspire to roasting at the level of the great micro-roasters that are out there... I'm looking to save a few bucks roasting for 20 minutes a week with the expectation that it probably won't be as good as it can be.. . but I have to say... I'm never disappointed.

My latest order was from Metropolis, and I am really enjoying the Redline and the Redline Decaf. I think I actually like the Decaf a bit better... I chose them because they offer both roasted and green beans of the Redline blend they offer. I have yet to roast the "greenline" I received.. but I'm sure it will be tasty... maybe not up to the pre-roasted... but good enough for me, and at 1/2 the price.

Good luck!!

TonyB

[DigMe]

The Whole Foods in Austin roasts in-store but I don't think many others are doing that yet.

bc

[BurBunny]

At least one of the Denver Whole Foods (on Hampden) roasts in-store as well, and puts the roast on date on the bin. While the bins aren't optimal, if you get there in a day or so, the beans are pretty good. Have had good luck with their Sumatra Decaf.