Decent looking fast pours - Rocky Issue?

[Scotto]

Hi folks. Great site - I have learned a lot by reading the posts here. I have been trying to diagnose a fast pour issue that I have just about exhausted my experiments on. Any advice would be appreciated.

I have a Silvia/Rocky combo I bought new about 3 months ago. It seems that no matter what I do, I am getting pours of about 15 seconds. I am using fresh beans (Black Cat and others) and an Espro tamper. The shots look good, with thick, reddish crema, and taste decent. It is just that they pour through very quickly no matter how fine I grind.

I have taken apart Rocky and found where the burrs first touch. On my machine, it is actually at zero. Even if I grind at zero, I am getting about a 15 second pour. Last week I got a hold of a naked portafilter and started playing around. It actually doesn't look too bad. A few spritzies, but no major channeling that I can see, and the striping and color look good. It is just that it rushes out and blonds very fast.

I am using the stock Rancilio double basket, and am using something like 15g of coffee. Lately I have been doing a quasi-WDT thing with a toothpick which has improved the distribution I am seeing with the naked portafilter.

Anyway, I see the potential of the shots I am getting, but I can't seem to slow it down. I have never been able to choke Silvia at all, which makes me think that perhaps there is an issue with Rocky.

Any thoughts on where to go from here? Thanks!

[TimEggers]

Hello Scotto,

Could you elaborate to your exact method/steps to making a shot? How hard do you tamp? What do you tamp with? Do you polish or knock? Could you shoot a video of an extraction and post it? How does the coffee bead (first appear) across the basket?

Sorry to answer with more questions, but details (especially without video) really help.

[DaveC]

If possible it would be a good idea to get a HB Member near you who has a grinder they know is working well and see if you can meet up with them to try their grinder. It would soon tell you is there is a problem with Rocky (although I suspect there is).

[HB]

Even if I grind at zero, I am getting about a 15 second pour. Last week I got a hold of a naked portafilter and started playing around. It actually doesn't look too bad. A few spritzies, but no major channeling that I can see, and the striping and color look good. It is just that it rushes out and blonds very fast.

Could you post a video? While you're at it, check the brew pressure just to be certain it's not sky high (i.e., over-pressure valve is stuck shut).

[cannonfodder]

That is odd. Even with old tired beans (which will act as you describe) you still should be able to choke the machine if you grind fine enough. Unless you have some serious distribution issues and are getting 15 second pulls from massive channeling, but that would be obvious with a bottomless portafilter.

[Scotto]

Thanks for the quick replies. Not sure I can get video, but I'll look into it. Here are details, if they help:

Weigh beans (I have varied between 14 and 16g, trying to keep the puck from touching the screen)
Grind into mason jar. Shake it up a bit to help de-clump
Transfer grounds to portafilter
Stir up grounds with toothpick, then level
Light tamp (~10 pounds)
Straight-down tap of portafilter to get grounds off side of basket
30 pound tamp with Espro tamper. Size is 58mm, so can't really Staub
Polish with little pressure
Lock and pull

I have repeated this with decreasing grind size until one click from my zero point.

My first attempts with the NP showed side channeling and dead spots. Stirring things up before tamping seems to have helped a bit. My pours this morning didn't show major channeling disasters, but I'll take a closer look this weekend and post back.

Thanks!

[cannonfodder]

What kind of beans are you using, and how old (roasted on date) are they?

[Scotto]

I have used a variety of the Intelligentsia beans, never more than a week or two old.

[gtrman]

Scotto,
when i first got my rocky all was going smoothly until i first took the thing apart for cleaning purposes. when i put it back together i started getting 10 second pours even with it set to zero. turns out i had misaligned the hopper with the burr carrier and was 1/3 of a turn off, but seeing as there is a screw in the bottom of the hopper, i could not get past zero. upon taking the screw out and realigning the hopper, my life became much easier.
i wonder if you could be having similar issues.

[Scotto]

Thanks Jeff. I actually removed that stop screw in Rocky some time ago, so he can go as low as he wants. Good thought, though.

Tonight I pulled two doubles. Parameters as above, Black Cat (decaf in this case) ground as low as I can get on Rocky. First one was a blond gusher, about 13 seconds for 2 oz, and the second one was a donut extraction and then blew a side channel about half way through. Very frustrating. Made good cappuccinos, though....

I don't have a videocam, but perhaps I can jury rig my regular camera to get some video at some point.

[Scotto]

Well, I am not sure this will be useful, but take a look. This one wasn't as fast as the others - I updosed a fair amount so that there was a clear screen imprint on the puck. The coffee is Intelligentsia Oromo blend ground as fine as I can get it on Rocky.

[TimEggers]

Thanks for the video; it helps us to "see" what's going on. Ok looking at the video (and I'm no expert) it looks like 1) the coffee just isn't ground fine enough and/or 2) Silvia's pressure is for some reason way high (a pressure gage portafilter would be of great help).

I wonder what would happen if you could try tamping harder?

I see you have some channeling and this is probably in avoidable if the coffee grind is off (due to grinder malfunction) or if Silvia's pressure is too high.

How old are the burrs in your Rocky?
When was the last time you had it apart to clean it?
Are you sure you're at zero? (Can you hear the burrs rub, or does the hopper just not turn anymore)?

Something is definitely up here; I wish I could be of better help.

[DC]

Scotto,

Given the technique you've laid out and if you're really grinding as fine as you can and are getting an impression from the showerscreen (=15-16g+ coffee in that basket) then the problem is in the grinder.

The pour itself isn't far off - aside from the deadspot and fast flow, and it doesn't look like high pressure problems. This looks like what I see on my Silvia when i don't grind fine enough.

Cleaning the grinder won't help here, and it shouldn't be necessary for the time you've had it. Something more major is clearly amiss. I think you should take DaveC's advice from above if you can. You say it is only 3 months old - were you having problems before you took rocky apart? If yes, and pending the results of the test, I'd send it back and get a new one. If not, then I guess you can only get it repaired.

Also - you need to fix that leak. The naked pf you have is the same as mine and is not specifically designed for Silvia (see here for related discussion) and is not a great fit. You need to yank it really hard across (to the 'half-past-four' mark or further) to stop the leak, although the problem seems to go away with continued use.

Hope you work it all out mate!

[Scotto]

Thanks yet again. Yes, Rocky is only 3 months old. The problems have been there since day one. I have had Rocky apart to clean, and I adjust the burrs so they chirp, so I know I am at or very close to zero. I purchased both the grinder and Silvia at Whole Latte Love. I actually spoke with the customer service people a couple of times in the first month, complaining about Rocky. They assured me that nothing was wrong with it, that it was either Silvia being finicky or my lousy technique. Being somewhat new at this, I took their advice. Now perhaps I am regretting not taking a stronger stance. I am sure they get zillions of complaints about this combo, not that it excuses anything.

What could be wrong with a brand-new grinder? Conceivably it was tested at the factory, since there were a few grinds in it (and they state it in the manual).

I don't want to go down the path of making a stink for a new grinder if I am not 100% sure that is the problem....

[TimEggers]

I'd call WLL and tell them you want a replacement or a refund. You are clearly in the warranty period and are clearly having problems. If they don't want to replace your grinder demand a refund and buy a Rocky from someone else if you have too. I had a Rocky for about 6 months before getting my Mazzer and I liked it a lot. I had to send mine in for a new motor, but after that it worked great.

Looking at your video again I have to agree with DC.

[HB]

I agree with Dave and Tim, the onset of the pour is way too fast, indicating the grind is too coarse. I would guesstimate it's off by about 3-4 Rocky clicks. Rocky is known for some thread slop, but that would not account for this significant a pour speed. You've reported problems from within the 30 day period, so Whole Latte Love shouldn't balk too hard at your repair claim. You could use it as an excuse to upgrade to a Mazzer Mini; vendors are always happy to entertain that alternative.

[jesawdy]

You could use it as an excuse to upgrade to a Mazzer Mini; vendors are always happy to entertain that alternative.

If you can afford it, I'll second that notion. I would check the Rocky zero point one last time to appease the WLL rep, see here.

BTW- My group gasket replacement has been working fine with the bottomless portafilter... I had the same sort of leaking prior. I still do not use the Rancilio PF for anything other than wiggles and backflushing, for fear that it was indenting the gasket more so than the bottomless. No leaks.

[Scotto]

Tempting, tempting. I would really like a doserless model, though, since I drink a lot of French Press, etc. There is quite a large cost delta between the Rocky and Mazzer doserless. Food for thought. I'll give WLL customer service a whirl Monday and see how it goes.

[HB]

In that case, consider a doserless mod, e.g., something like Tim's doser replacement or espresso's internal funnel. Either one won't cost you more than headscratching and $1 of materials. Personally I don't mind the doser because it helps even out the distribution.

[Scotto]

Well, an hour on the phone with WLL and I am not too happy. They flatly refused to replace the machine or refund my money, since I am two weeks outside the 30 day "buyers remorse" program. They were willing to repair it, which I am not sure I want to do, since I am out the shipping costs plus I am without a grinder. Looks like I learned a painful $300 lesson....