Consistent GOD shots - Page 4

[zin1953]

Wait -- you mean I can't pull a God Shot if I'm married?!?!?!?

[CoffeeBuzz]

DaveG, do your results only apply to single espressos?

I can only report on what I've tried, which at this point consists of only singles using fresh Vita and Dolce @96C on my machine. FWIW, the results started going down hill somewhere around 6 days after roast, which is earlier than when I use the traditional approach. Now that the weekend is here I'll take another pint out of the freezer and have another go at it.

FWIW, it would be enlightening if there were a discussion about the small inconsistencies we allow ourselves for the sake of expedience. For example:

(1) The WDT is a convenient way to reduce clumping and control channeling, but from an engineering point of view, the results can not be expected to be equivalent to a grind that doesn't clump to begin with. (I'm sure the mere suggestion will raise the hair on the neck of more than one reader.) How consistent is the WDT at eliminating static at a microscopic level? Does it matter for everyday shots? Does it matter if your goal is consistent exceptional shots?

(2) Exactly how many 'stale' grinds are permissible in a basket? The only way to completely eliminate stale grinds is to disassemble and clean the grinder after each use, which isn't practical. So exactly what is permissible? Where is the threshold? Is there one threshold for every day shots, and another for those chasing the ultimate shot? What is your personal tolerance for stale grinds in the chute? How many sacrificial beans do you flush before each grind? What if it's been 5 minutes since your last grind? 30 minutes? 1 day? 2 weeks?

(3) How much temperature variation is really permissible? It has been written that +/- 1C is not detectable in the cup, but is that for every day shots, or for exceptional shots?. Would not a 2C temp swing turn an exceptional shot into an ordinary shot?

(4) How quickly does the flavor profile of beans change with age? Is there a difference in the window for everyday shots versus exceptional shots? Do we care?

(5) How much difference does one or two tenths of a gram in the dose make? What about 3 or four tenths? One or two grams? What is the threshold? Is there one threshold for everyday shots, and another for exceptional shots? Do you weigh the basket after each grind?

The list could go on.

We can put hundreds of millions of transistors on a piece of silicon the size of your thumbnail. We can intercept a comet with a spacecraft and alter it's course. We can transmit billions of bits of data per second through a thread of glass the size of a human hair. Is making a consistent exceptional cup of espresso beyond our reach? Or are our sights set too low?

By the way, WRT this thread, I don't mind being bashed, but I do mind it when people put words in my mouth and/or bash me for saying things I didn't say. If you disagree with with me that's fine, but just read my posts thoroughly before doing so.

[Randy G.]

(1)How consistent is the WDT at eliminating static at a microscopic level? Does it matter for everyday shots? Does it matter if your goal is consistent exceptional shots?

The method is applied when necessary to make up for shortcomings in some grinders or environmental conditions that cause clumping. In a perfect world no grinders would clump. There are some which do not, or at least mitigate it to a reasonable extent. it is the reason I like dosers. On the other hand, the versalab grinder would be on my coffee cart if it were affordable (affordability- another relative thing).

(2) Exactly how many 'stale' grinds are permissible in a basket?

As few as reasonably possible. Some grinders hold virtually none. Others a lot.

(3) How much temperature variation is really permissible?

There has been research on this topic done by folks capable of not only controlling temperature profiles but pressure profiles as well. Flat line is sometimes good and other times not. it is one of the reasons that some folks home roast and blend so that they can create coffees that taste best with their equipment and the way it brews espresso.

(4) How quickly does the flavor profile of beans change with age? Is there difference in the window for everyday shots versus exceptional shots? Do we care?

We care only if we can taste the difference and the difference is unacceptable. Taste changes with age, and the rate of change depends on lots of factors including roast degree, storage environment, varieties used in the blend, etc.

(5) How much difference does one or two tenths of a gram in the dose make?

Get a scale and find out for yourself. The answer is that the amount that matters is the amount that matters to you.

The preparation of fine espresso is an art., and the product is a work of art (when done properly) and the most important thing about art is the perception of the viewer.. in this case, the taster. No work of art is perfect and that's a good thing- it keeps the artists employed.

Is making a consistent exceptional cup of espresso beyond our reach? Or are our sights set too low?

Exceptional espresso made consistently? Again, this is art. it is food. It is only exceptional if the person tasting it thinks so. Sip an espresso, then brush your teeth with toothpaste and see if it is still exceptional. The one factor we have not mentioned in this thread is "condition of palate." Try quantifying that in a lab.

IMO, if you try to make the art of creating espresso a pure science, it will suck the fun out of it in a hurry... at least for me. And even if the machines and processes are perfect, the beans never will be, nor will we be able to control the evaluation system which is the human palate.

[hbuchtel]

Dave G, those are great questions, and I appreciate you summarizing them here.

If you do some more reading you'll see many attempts to answer them in these forums.

The problem, as I see it, is that 1. We are all doing this as a hobby and 2. Getting a firm answer to any of these questions requires a combination of technology, technique, honesty and patience that simply does not occur very often!

As Randy G suggested in the above post, you could probably answer at least one of them by doing a bit of well controlled testing yourself.

Regards, Henry

[HB]

I can only report on what I've tried, which at this point consists of only singles using fresh Vita and Dolce @96C on my machine.

I wonder if your results would hold with blends other than Vivace's. David Schomer's penchant for updosing is renowned. I've only been to his shop once and the lattes were wonderful. He was also serving straight espressos at the conference from his booth; as I recall, its taste profile wasn't my preference.

Roasters optimize a blend for the expected preparation. Now that I think about it, your recipe may not be far off Schomer's recommendations, e.g., extreme updosing, high brew temperature, ultra flat temperature profile. A brew temperature of 96C is very hot and Robusta blends like Schomer's are the only ones I know that can tolerate such heat.

[miKe mcKoffee]

(1) The WDT is a convenient way to reduce clumping and control channeling, but from an engineering point of view, the results can not be expected to be equivalent to a grind that doesn't clump to begin with. (I'm sure the mere suggestion will raise the hair on the neck of more than one reader.) How consistent is the WDT at eliminating static at a microscopic level? Does it matter for everyday shots? Does it matter if your goal is consistent exceptional shots?

Good distribution is always important. What or how it happens at the microscopic level is irrelevant to me, what and how it affects the cup is paramount.

(2) Exactly how many 'stale' grinds are permissible in a basket? The only way to completely eliminate stale grinds is to disassemble and clean the grinder after each use, which isn't practical. So exactly what is permissible? Where is the threshold? Is there one threshold for every day shots, and another for those chasing the ultimate shot? What is your personal tolerance for stale grinds in the chute? How many sacrificial beans do you flush before each grind? What if it's been 5 minutes since your last grind? 30 minutes? 1 day? 2 weeks?

As few as possible.

(3) How much temperature variation is really permissible? It has been written that +/- 1C is not detectable in the cup, but is that for every day shots, or for exceptional shots?. Would not a 2C temp swing turn an exceptional shot into an ordinary shot?

Written by who where? Some say they can taste differences with less than 1F shot temp change. In my book 2C/3.8F temp swing is huge generally speaking with usually dramatic change in the shot.

(4) How quickly does the flavor profile of beans change with age? Is there a difference in the window for everyday shots versus exceptional shots? Do we care?

Don't know who the collective we is so can't say if we care. I do know an extremely many who frequent this site continually recommend fresh ground fresh roast coffee as the norm. Personally I've been chasing fresh roast whole beans since 1984 and roasting my own for over 8 years.

(5) How much difference does one or two tenths of a gram in the dose make? What about 3 or four tenths? One or two grams? What is the threshold? Is there one threshold for everyday shots, and another for exceptional shots? Do you weigh the basket after each grind?

Don't weigh the basket after each grind. I do periodically weigh a series of 6 builds to check technique weighing to 1/10g with +/- 0.5g max allowable tolerance on a double shot build. It's also the standard I use at my Roastery Kafe before a new person is allowed to even begin to pull shots for customers. Actual goal is +/- 0.2g variance but allow 0.5g as passing the test.

The list could go on.

We can put hundreds of millions of transistors on a piece of silicon the size of your thumbnail. We can intercept a comet with a spacecraft and alter it's course. We can transmit billions of bits of data per second through a thread of glass the size of a human hair. Is making a consistent exceptional cup of espresso beyond our reach? Or are our sights set too low?

Based on my experiences here over the years sights are set rather high. If automated repeatability based on high tech is your goal get a Javabot or other fully automated system. IMO every facet of coffee is a marriage of art and science. Consistent exceptional shots is not beyond human reach, which is not to say even the best baristas in the world don't pull sinkers occasionally. IMO it is beyond the reach of pure technical automation.

[cafeIKE]

(1) - (5) A. None of these can be tested in isolation. We cannot reuse a puck to see what differences occur in the cup by changing one parameter. The permutations of bean age, roast level, grind, distribution, temperature and pressure are astronomical.

FYI, Terabit fibre optic is pretty common and petabit is just around the corner.

[zin1953]

DaveG,

I have no idea what a Storage SOC Architect is. I know what an architect is/does, and while I have the utmost respect and admiration for the job, I don't have the knowledge of his or her craft to undertake that job myself. I know what a software engineer is/does, and while I have the utmost respect and admiration for what they do, I don't have the first clue of how to do it myself . . . even though I've been using computers since the dominant operating system was CP/M (pre-DOS).

On the other hand, most architects and/or software engineers don't know how to make wine, so . . . I don't know, are we even?

In other words, each of us has a specialized skill set within a more generalized set of skills. We may know how to drive a car, but not necessarily know how to race one, repair one, or build one from scratch. We may all know how to cook, but some of us are certainly better than others, and only a few are actual professional chefs.

Making espresso, like making wine or -- indeed -- like making a meal -- is part art, part science. Have you ever been to the same top quality, high-end restaurant and ordered the same dish more than once? If you have, I guarantee that the second time you had it, it didn't taste identical to the first time.

Wine rarely tastes the same from year-to-year, even though the (e.g.) Cabernet Sauvignon grapes came from the same vineyard both vintages, cropped to the same tonnage per acre, used the same cultured strain of yeast, used brand new oak barrels from the same cooper, and aged in wood for the exact amount of time. Indeed, that is guaranteed to produce two very different wines! (BTW, the exact same wine rarely tastes the same from bottle-to-bottle, too!)

You can measure out coffee to nearest nanogram, measure the temperature to the nearest 1/100th of a degree (Fahrenheit or Celsius), time the length of the shot to the nearest millisecond, and the resulting shots WILL be different. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

As for the rest, OK, I'll play . . .

(1) Does it matter for everyday shots? Does it matter if your goal is consistent exceptional shots?

Isn't every HOME barista's goal to pull the best shot/make the best drink they can? Isn't this a silly question?

(2) Exactly how many 'stale' grinds are permissible in a basket?

Clearly the answer is as few/little as possible. That said, each individual's palate is different, and while most will taste a difference between -- say -- a $2.99 Merlot and a $150 bottle of Merlot, there are certainly some people for whom that difference will be irrelevant, in that they like (or don't like) both wines the same. Similarly, there are some people who are more sensitive to detecting stale coffee than others.

And so on and so on and so on . . .

In the world of wine, there are people who are known as "Super Tasters." This has nothing to do with their ability to identify which glass has the 1928 Château Lafite, and everything to do with the number of taste buds on their tongue! Some people (generally but not always women) a) have more taste buds numerically, and b) those receptors are more sensitive overall, than the average individual.

I have no dispute with you or your technique. Glad it works for you. Organoleptically, precise reproduction is an impossibility, but -- what the hey!

Cheers,
Jason

[cafeIKE]

(2) Exactly how many 'stale' grinds are permissible in a basket?

Clearly the answer is as few/little as possible.

It may turn out that some fraction of dried-out particles, properly distributed, may result in an optimal expansion of the puck and fines migration.

Now, if the question is formed "How many grinds from the previous coffee are permissable?" I'm in complete agreement, except on Blend-O-Matic days.

[RapidCoffee]

(1) The WDT is a convenient way to reduce clumping and control channeling, but from an engineering point of view, the results can not be expected to be equivalent to a grind that doesn't clump to begin with. (I'm sure the mere suggestion will raise the hair on the neck of more than one reader.) How consistent is the WDT at eliminating static at a microscopic level? Does it matter for everyday shots? Does it matter if your goal is consistent exceptional shots?

The WDT has nothing to do with eliminating static. It also does not cure warts or cancer. However, there have been unconfirmed reports of uncontrollable mirth.

By the way, WRT this thread, I don't mind being bashed, but I do mind it when people put words in my mouth and/or bash me for saying things I didn't say. If you disagree with with me that's fine, but just read my posts thoroughly before doing so.

In that case, you might consider toning down the troll-ish nature of your posts prior to hitting the "Submit" button. It's often true that we reap what we sow...

[Marshall]

Dan will probably move this to "Coffees," but I had to report my own first "godshot" in months, poured this evening from a single origin. This was an eye-opener for me, because I am not normally a fan of S.O. espresso.

It was a 2007 Brazil Cachoiera "Taste of the Harvest" Reserve Lot, this month's "Experimental Espresso Club" offering from Andrew Barnett of Ecco Caffe. I updosed a Faema double basket on my PID'd Zaffiro at [EDIT] 200.5F and poured 1.75 oz in 28 seconds. The result was an enormously complex, bittersweet fruitcup with thick body. NO, I do not expect to repeat this masterpiece any time soon. But, this coffee has been consistently very, very good, nonetheless.

[AndyS]

Dan will probably move this to "Coffees," but I had to report my own first "godshot" in months....It was a 2007 Brazil Cachoiera "Taste of the Harvest" Reserve Lot, this month's "Experimental Espresso Club" offering from Andrew Barnett of Ecco Caffe....The result was an enormously complex, bittersweet fruitcup with thick body.

It goes without saying that you evaluated this shot in milk, of course.

[Marshall]

It goes without saying that you evaluated this shot in milk, of course.

A latte, actually.

[Psyd]

I had to report my own first "godshot" in months,
It was a 2007 Brazil Cachoiera "Taste of the Harvest" Reserve Lot,

Just finished a QP roasted by a friend of mine about three weeks ago. I'm not sure what you experienced was a god shot, as I had shot after shot come out just like that with that bean.
This was not only a flavour that reminded one of blackberries, but actually tasted of blackberries! Blueberries, too!
Yeah, that was nice...

[JimWright]

Already lots of strong opinions here and it's probably all been said re: inconsistency of the beans themselves and the nature/level of irreproducibility in complex systems, the nature of the lingo, etc., but by way of one more experience, re: (3) I believe I can consistently taste 1 degree F or lower changes with some coffees in some ranges, within the drinkable range (i.e., get good shots at both temps that taste consistent, and consistently different, such that I can repeat the resulting change with similar results).

[zin1953]

. . . get good shots at both temps that taste consistent, and consistently different. . . . (emphasis added)

I've never pretended that I am an expert when it comes to coffee and espresso. Indeed, I've never called myself anything more than an "experienced newbie." But let me return, for a moment to the world of wine (something that I do know a little about).

One of the things I would always tell my students is that every winery in California (indeed the world, but let's keep focused) "does the same thing, but they do it differently." We all crush grapes, ferment the juice, age it for a particular length of time, and stick it in a bottle. But at each and every step, there are a number of different ways, options, that a winemaker can take, the result being that two winemakers can get the same grapes picked from the same vineyard on the same day and at the same level of ripeness . . . and yet still make radically different wines, both of which are outstanding . . . or, the differences between the two finished wines may be quite subtle, yet distinct, and still be outstanding, each in its own right. (Of course, each wine may also be $#! -- the vinous equivalent of a "sink shot," but let's not go there.)

The short answer is that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat: updose or down; finer grind or more coarse; heavy tamp or light; flat burr set or conical (or a hybrid) -- the options go on and on, and just like "DB or HX," both can produce great shots . . . but different!

[JimWright]

Agreed Jason - I guess I could have qualified further, i.e. for some coffees, shots at 1 degree apart can be consistently different in a relatively consistent way, along with the many inconsistent ways created either deliberately or by my laggard barista skills.