Considering an upgrade from the Mazzer Mini E? - Page 2

[Teme]

Cimbali Max in the US is supposed to come with the conical / flat burrsets, but the rotational speed is 1400 RPM. What's up with that? As Dan said, I have a Kony and it is slow, but a very excellent conical grinder. Takes 15 secs to grind 18 g of coffee. By contrast, the Robur, which I also own, takes 6 seconds to do the same thing. Robur rotational speed is 500 RPM (60 Hz) and the burrset is larger in diameter than the Kony, so the cutting surface speed is higher than the Kony's. If you are in a 50 Hz country the rotational speed gets reduced to 417 Hz, which is prolly better. To tell the truth I can't tell any difference in grinding quality between the Robur and the Kony. I can, however, tell a big difference between conical and flat-burr grinders. If you are considering moving on from the mini-E, I would suggest going the conical route for sure. Jim Schulman has insight on conicals as well, since he owns one of those Versalab abortions. FWIW, I own a mini-e as well as the two conicals. There is no comparison. The mini-e is grudgingly given counter space since I need a decaf grinder at home.

-Greg

Thanks Greg. Now I don't know how big a difference the burr speed would make into the taste in a home environment (as in no problem with heat). In terms of the flat vs combo burrs vs conical, I have read positive things on the combo burrs as well - pre-cutting by the conical and a larger cutting area on the flat burr (compared to normal flat burr grinders). What I haven't seen is a taste comparison between the combo burr and conicals. That would be interesting.

Anyway, the project went on hold for a couple of weeks pending the possibility of some potential news that may come out in a couple of weeks. I'll wait to see if this is what I expect it to be...

Br,
Teme

[sk]

Hi Teemu

Just want to remind you of two very different options: the Versalab M3, well known here at home-barista.com and the German Mahlkonig K30es (you just won't believe how fast and noiseless this machine is...).


Br Stefan

[Teme]

Hi Teemu

Just want to remind you of two very different options: the Versalab M3, well known here at home-barista.com and the German Mahlkonig K30es (you just won't believe how fast and noiseless this machine is...).


Br Stefan

Thanks Stefan,

I've used the Mahlkoening and I don't like it that much - too much clumping, heat issues and it's also a tad large. With regards to the Versalab, it was tempting at one stage, but the impracticality as well as the reports of durability issues tempted me to look elsewhere. I'm hoping to hear of another interesting alternative within two weeks...

Br,
Teme

[Rainman]

Teme- what "durability issues" are you referring to with the Versalab? And what impracticality bugs you? I'm seriously considering the M3, and for 1250 clams, if there's any kind of durability issue (or any significant impracticality hangup) I'd like to hear some more about that. All I remember on the Versalab stuff is all the negative reviews after they went to their first SCAA convention and ticked off nearly all of the coffeegeek people that were there. I think they make a well-designed product, but not many people have reviewed their equipment, so there's not much to go on. I'm a bit lacking in different experiences as far as grinders go, having only used my trusty Rocky for the past 6 yrs or so... This purchase is probably going to cause me more anxiety than what I went through with my espresso machine...

If you could be more specific, I'd appreciate it.

Ray

[cannonfodder]

You may want to read the Versalab M3 Grinder review in The Bench forum. You also have the MACAP conical and the Mazzer Kony in that range as well.

[Teme]

Yep. The thread David (cannonfodder) referred to is a detailed account on the M3. It appears that most owners have been satisfied, but there are also negative experiences. My main concern is on the design/application/durability of the bearings. I am actually still intrigued by the grinder and could potentially live with the practicality issues. But as I noted before, my grinder purchase is currently on hold...

Br,
Teme

[Rainman]

Thanks for the replies, guys- I've read all available reviews (I think) on both the Macap MC4 and the Mazzer Mini E's over the years... My problem is that I have a personality defect that conflicts with the fundamental nature of making espresso-- I'm a "neat-nic".. just don't like stray grounds anywhere. See my dilemma? I moded my Rocky (bought new in 2000) to make it doserless, and it worked out great.. but it still leaves a few stale grounds trapped in the burrs and in the chute that I know must taint my shots. I've seen all of the mods to dosers of all kinds, and it just seems like too much of a bandaid... then a few years ago the Versalab M3 comes along (and along with it, my hopes of dodging some of the messiness and old, stale grounds in the process of grinding coffee, just cost too danged much at the time). Now the cars are all paid off, I don't need a new bicycle this year (big windfall, there) and like my Dad always said- I've got some cash burnin' a hole in my pocket! I'm still tempted to just get one... seems like my 2-3 shots/day (even with my lightly-home roasted stuff) won't burn out the bearings too soon.

Well, like Teme- maybe I'll wait a tad longer... Rocky's still dependable, and at $35 per burr-set, it may last forever and it's not making sounds like an air-raid siren.. yet!

Ray

[randomperson]

Thanks for the replies, guys- I've read all available reviews (I think) on both the Macap MC4 and the Mazzer Mini E's over the years... My problem is that I have a personality defect that conflicts with the fundamental nature of making espresso-- I'm a "neat-nic".. just don't like stray grounds anywhere. See my dilemma? I moded my Rocky (bought new in 2000) to make it doserless, and it worked out great.. but it still leaves a few stale grounds trapped in the burrs and in the chute that I know must taint my shots. I've seen all of the mods to dosers of all kinds, and it just seems like too much of a bandaid... then a few years ago the Versalab M3 comes along (and along with it, my hopes of dodging some of the messiness and old, stale grounds in the process of grinding coffee, just cost too danged much at the time). Now the cars are all paid off, I don't need a new bicycle this year (big windfall, there) and like my Dad always said- I've got some cash burnin' a hole in my pocket! I'm still tempted to just get one... seems like my 2-3 shots/day (even with my lightly-home roasted stuff) won't burn out the bearings too soon.

Well, like Teme- maybe I'll wait a tad longer... Rocky's still dependable, and at $35 per burr-set, it may last forever and it's not making sounds like an air-raid siren.. yet!

Ray

Ray, if you are a neatnik, look no further than the Mini E. It really is a dream -- no stray grounds anywhere, apart from where they are meant to go (in the grounds catcher). Wonderful doserless design. Fantastic grind. Very few stale grounds get trapped in the grinder. It really is what you are looking for, imho.

[cannonfodder]

If you are willing to drop that kind of cash, give the Mazzer Kony a look. Some of the top barista recommend it.

Some folks are perfectly happy with the M3. The grind looks about as good as it gets.

[DavidMLewis]

Anyway, the project went on hold for a couple of weeks pending the possibility of some potential news that may come out in a couple of weeks. I'll wait to see if this is what I expect it to be...

With regards to the Versalab, it was tempting at one stage, but the impracticality as well as the reports of durability issues tempted me to look elsewhere. I'm hoping to hear of another interesting alternative within two weeks...

Nu, as we say in Yiddish?

Best,
David

[Teme]

Nu, as we say in Yiddish?

Best,
David

Very little info available I'm afraid. But yes, LM has confirmed that they are working on a new grinder with a straight grind path. Apparently the first prototype had some weaknesses and needs further development. From what I understand, we cannot expect this to be in production within 2007 (or perhaps not even 2008). Bummer. I will need to look at other alternatives and to be honest, there aren't many out there...

Br,
Teme

[eastpresso]

Hi Teme,

have you seen this one yet (conical, no doser), there were some positive comments on the German Kaffee-Netz Forum (fast, no clumping)

http://www.casadio.net/Shared%20D...md_istantaneo.aspx

Maybe Marcus (nobbi-4711) will post some impressions here..

[Teme]

Hi Teme,

have you seen this one yet (conical, no doser), there were some positive comments on the German Kaffee-Netz Forum (fast, no clumping)

http://www.casadio.net/Shared%20D...md_istantaneo.aspx

Maybe Marcus (nobbi-4711) will post some impressions here..

Yep, I have seen this one and heard good things about it, too. The price is also right. However, am I the only one that thinks that it is ugly as hell? (that doesn't affect the taste, though )

Br,
Teme

[maximatica]

The price is also right. However, am I the only one that thinks that it is ugly as hell? (that doesn't affect the taste, though )

Br,
Teme

I did not see any pricing on their site, does anyone know what it sells for in Euros?

Also, I think it doesn't match anything except perhaps a La Spaziale S1/S2 but it's not ugly.

M./

[Teme]

I did not see any pricing on their site, does anyone know what it sells for in Euros?

I have been told that the price is around 350 euros including taxes. That is around the same price as doser version of the Mazzer Mini and significantly cheaper than the Mini E. Good value for money, then.

Br,
Teme

[maximatica]

I have been told that the price is around 350 euros including taxes. That is around the same price as doser version of the Mazzer Mini and significantly cheaper than the Mini E. Good value for money, then.

Br,
Teme

Yeah, that sounds like a good deal. Without the taxes it might be in the $400 USD range which would actually be a great deal. I wonder how much better (if at all better) the burrs are than the conicals in my Isomac Granmachianna.

My current plan to eliminate all my free time is to set up some experiments using my not yet sold GM as a pre-grinder (coarse grind on the conicals) and then use my Mini E type B as the final grinder. Kind of a 2-step Frankenstein of the high end grinders that everyone talks about but no one seems to have hands-on experience with. Should be fun/waste of time but it is the thought that this might work well that has kept me from selling off the GM so I better get on it.

Just waiting for my lab coat to come back from the cleaners.


M./

BTW, Teme, you have about the nicest blog. I hadn't read it for a while but I just read the grinder graph post and want to point out that one of the things that I didn't like about the GM was that the stock grind setting adjuster had a lot of play in it. So since during use the grinder is trying to screw the 2 burrs together and lock them up the play in the adjuster allows the burrs to move closer until it hits one side of the adjuster hole and then the whole top burr shifts back to the other side of the adjustment and then starts over. You can see this whole thing wiggling back and forth while it is operating. I never noticed this until I built a little home-made worm drive adjuster. It had a little bit of play in the engagement and slipped off the track allowing the burrs to lock up. When I got them going again I watched to see what caused it and then could see the action of the burrs trying to move together.

My point with the above is that the Annova might have the same problem and the different particle sizes might not be a by-product of the conical burrs at all but of the adjsutment locking mechanism allowing play like the GM system does.

Finally, I made the worm gear adjuster because I figured out that on any adjuster that has slots or settings that there is only a 33% chance that the setting is in the right space. In other words there is a 100% right on the money setting and a blank spot on each side of that setting. So all grinders that are not infinitely adjustable have a blank spot-grind setting-blank spot arrangement around their collar. How big the blank spots are depends on how fine the adjustment settings are. But at all times there is the problem that on either side of any possible correct setting there is a blank spot in the adjustment right where we would like to set the grind adjustment. I found this out when I tried to correct for humidity and the "right" setting was between my possible adjustment points. So now I have a Mini E and no problems with adjustment but wonder about the conical vs. flat vs. conical/flat hybrids. The upside to my 2 step Frankenstein is that I would have adjustments for both types of grind, something nothing else has, they all have just one grind adjuster which adjusts for both burr sets (as far as I know). With a resale value of only about $125 I'll be trying to get my GM to earn its keep on the counter.

[eastpresso]

I have been told that the price is around 350 euros including taxes. That is around the same price as doser version of the Mazzer Mini and significantly cheaper than the Mini E. Good value for money, then.

Br,
Teme

The price is more like 650 Euros...if you get it for 350 put me on the list

http://www.jura-ersatzteile.de/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/72/products_id/6550


BTW the Cimbali Max is very loud in comparison to the Mazzer Mini, I've used one for a while and seriously suggest you try it before you put it on your shortlist. Mine was a used one so I am still suspecting there might have something wrong with it. As to the quality of the grind imho it beats the Mini easily. Pucks with the Max were solid as a rock every time, but the Casadio Instantaneo looks interesting too. Wouldn't mind trying one out..

[Teme]

My point with the above is that the Annova might have the same problem and the different particle sizes might not be a by-product of the conical burrs at all but of the adjsutment locking mechanism allowing play like the GM system does.

A good point and most likely a correct assumption. If I get the opportunity to do further tests, I would like to include a high-end conical to see if there is significant difference in the patterns (flat vs conical). Oh, thanks for the kind words

The price is more like 650 Euros...if you get it for 350 put me on the list

Yep, so it seems. 350 would have been too good to be true I guess. Thanks for the comments regarding the Max...

Br,
Teme