Choosing between Brewtus 2, Vibiemme Domobar Super, and Andreja Premium - help!

[Maskedman]

Ok, I've had my Silvia for a few months and found out that making multiple drinks is pretty darn hard and takes ages.

I want to step it up a notch and enter the HX-league, I've been looking at the following machines, what would you guys choose and why?

Expobar Brewtus 2
Vibiemme Domobar Super
Andreja Premium

I'm seriously considering the Brewtus 2, any reasons not to?

Any help will be appreciated!

Best regards,

Thomas

[miKe mcKoffee]

Any of those machines would likely serve you well. Last weekend I had the chance to play with a friends new Brewtus for a couple days, I have a rotary Bricoletta. (buyer's remorse BI, not current BII) I'd link to the little write-up I did on CG but once again CG is down so I'll cut & paste it again from my original Sweet Maria's List post.

And the winner is, there isn't. It's a tie and an apples and oranges kind of
thing. The Brute wins for ease of use pulling shot after shot at the same
temp (albeit at a slower shot pace than can done on the Bric' while
maintaining shot temp consistency), the Bric' wins for ease of pulling shot
after shot each shot at a different required shot temp (albeit the temp
ain't automatic, you must know what you're doing.) The Bric' does flat out
win when it comes steaming, especially ability to pull and steam
simultaneously. The Brute flat out wins when it comes to keeping the PF
wiggle water off the counter. (deeper front to back drip tray)

I'll elaborate a bit more on Barry's Brute who visited me from Thursday
afternoon until leaving about 5pm today. (long)

Bullet: the Brute is an excellent machine for a person who primarily pulls
shots of one blend or SO at the same temp (the key factor here is at the
same temp, not changing temps between shots) and makes caps or lattes. But
bit of a slow poke if you only want to pull a series of straight shots for 3
or more people. Does much better making multiple consecutive caps than
multiple consecutive shots only. HUH? Doesn't make sense you say! Seems
weird and will take some explaining. First go over to Home Barista forum and
read espresso 101 & 102 'cuz I'm not going to take too much time going into
types of espresso machine functionality specifics when it's alreay there.

OTH if you routinely pull shots of different beans, requiring different shot
temps, sometimes even different temps back to back shots, look at a good HX
machine not a dual boiler. And for those of you who have spent temp surfing
Silvia and swear when you upgrade you'll NEVER surf again, think again, HX
might be the right machine for you. I surfed Silvia for almost 3 years
before PIDing, and swore I'd never get an HX 'cuz you have to surf. I
learned it's TOTALLY different. HX surf and go technique highly accurate and
simple timed from end of HX flash (from idle over heated water in HX line is
above boiling and flashes/dances when it hits the grouphead and or PF) My
Bric' is tuned end of flash and go pull 208f, each one one thousand lowers
shot temp 1f, reliably repeatably calling any temp 198f to 208f shot after
shot after shot. Back to the Brute...

Mike (just plain) and I were mistaken, confirmed today both the brew boiler
& steam boilers are factor insulated. Insulating the brew boiler turns out
to be a big mistake if you have any barista skills at all. Unless you like
your shots to quickly creep up to 206f NO MATTER WHERE THE BREW TEMP BOILER
SET! (with steam boiler set at a moderate 1.3bar kick on trigger)

Here's what happened beginning Thursday afternoon when we unpacked the 64.5
pound Brute! After waiting an hour for full warm up christened the brute
pulling an excellent shot of 1/3 PRYS LFC 2/3 Sumatra Volkopi FC.
Outstanding shot. But Barry had to leave to pick up Lois from her seminar,
so I proceeded to put the Brute through some paces beginning with testing
series of shots checking inter & intra shot stability. Since I knew that
with the Bric' I needed to wait 35sec from end of one shot until beginning
the start of the next pull to maintain shot temps I figured to see if the
Brute cound do better and start shot temp testing waiting only 30sec from
end of post shot group flush & back flush blank wiggle to start of next
pull. Big mistake! I had the brew boiler set for 94c (201.2f) and first shot
on target +-1f with 2oz E61 warming pre-flush (per manual). But next shot a
good 2f high be end of 2oz pull. (Shot temps measured with Scace
Thermofilter, the current standard) By the 3 or 4th it hit 205.7f, 4.5f
higher than brew boiler set, not good. Fiddled around and pulled 24oz
non-stop (at 2oz per 25sec) with the temp rock stable fluctuating
205.6/205.7f. BUT THE BREW BOILER SET AT 201.2F! I also noted way earlier
in this shot series test the the brew boiler NEVER kicked it's heater on,
never. Oh, the Brute's two 1.7L each boilers heat independently, only one
can be on, steam boiler priority, the brew boiler is fed with steam boiler
HX heated water. Obviously the brew boiler was getting water that was too
hot for shots 30sec apart! Slowed to a minute, didn't help, slowed to snails
barista shot pace 90sec, didn't help. Ok, this sucks, it's late Thursday
evening and I quit.

Friday morning after calling WLL and getting nowhere with the service tech
(who kept trying to explain to me how to adjust shot OPV when I kept asking
how to lower boiler pressure 'cuz HX feed to brew boiler too hot) WLL called
Todd at his kid's softball game and had him call me back. Didn't really get
anywhere other than Todd saying shot temp creep normal. I theorized
substantially lengthening the 8" line feeding from the HX steam boiler to
brew boiler to might help cool the too hot inlet water. Todd agreed to send
us a couple feet of the teflon tubing Monday if we wanted, which of course
wouldn't do us any good Saturday's Gathering! After hanging up I dialed down
the steam boiler to the same lower 1.0bar I run my Bric'. This did achieve
being able to pull shots that didn't keep creeping up in temp, if using a
moderately slow 60sec between shot pace. Ok, can the Brute pull a shot and
immediately start steaming while the shot pulling like I do all the time
with the Bric'? NO! As soon as the steam opened the pressure plumetted
below 0.5bar and kept going down! Fine, can it steam while not pulling a
shot with steam boiler at 1.0bar. Yes, barely, not nearly as much steam
power as the Bric' at the same boiler pressure. Problem while yes the Brute
has two nice sized 1.7L boilers each has it's own (enemic) 875w heater (or
1000w depending if going by earlier specs that say 1000w or current specs
that say 875w). This was tried with the Brute stock 1 hole and Gold Pro 2
hole (two hole I use on the Bric') The huge performance difference here of
course because the Bric' has 1800w heater.

Ok, Saturday after Mike (just plain) arrived we pondered and speculated and
thought the boiler insulation was after market (this is buyer's remorse
returned Brewtus 1) Since didn't have any suitable tubing to lengthen the
brew boiler inlet feed, Duh, remove the brew boiler insulation so it won't
retain heat as well! And it worked, to a point. Cranked the steam boiler
back up to a respectable 1.3bar, did some testing and seemed pretty good.
Able to start a pull and steam while pulling (~3oz for a cap only, larger
volumes of milk need to steam without pulling). Steam presure would drop and
get a bit weak by the end of steaming 3oz but acceptable. (again using Gold
Pro 2 hole tip) Steaming while not pulling robust with pressure maintained.
But on back to back straight shots still need atleast 60sec wait or shot
temp will creep up in a shot to shot series. Not a big deal as long as you
know. (but it is a slower pace than I can pull back to back shots, and would
be a PIA to me)

What about changing target shot temp? Going up quick. Going down even 1c?
Unless you "force the issue" it takes forever! (10-15min) 3 or 4 minutes by
pulling a continuous blank shot and simultaneously dumping the steam boiler
temp by pulling hot water until both the steam boiler heater kicks on
(immediate)AND the brew boiler requests to come on, then stop the cooling
water flows. (takes a bit of time, didn't precisely time it) Now wait for
first the steam boiler to come back up to pressure and then the brew boiler
will come back up to temp. So takes about 3 or 4 minutes all told to lower
shot temp. (I didn't get that method from the manual, figured out the
technique on the fly, but I didn't read much of the manual so who knows
maybe it's in there;-)

Ok that's been mostly about inter shot temps. What about intra shot? Dual
boiler shot temp profile very different than HX shot profile. (You can read
copious pages about it on HB;-) Basically an HX shot machine will have an
initial high hump then stablize (or slow drop off depending on how tuned)
while dual boiler (this Brute anyway) starts a bit low and slowly
continuously rises during the shot. I still think it'll benefit having a
longer HX inlet feed tube, I'd like to see the incoming water substantially
lower temp, around 198f, since not many blends call for temp lower than
that, and the higher temps required brought up to temp from there by the
brew boiler heater (what a concept). Since I could pull 24oz at 2oz/25sec
normal shot rate non-stop with brew boiler set basically off (80c) and have
the actual temp at the puck a rock solid 205.6/205.7f the entire time that
tells me the HX inlet to brew boiler temp is atleast 205.7f at 1.3bar. Some
designer broke the lead on their pencil! I do not know if they've made a
change in the HX design on the current Brewtus II.

I previously mentioned the Brutes initial heatup time from room temp
compared to the Bric'. The Brute's steam boiler took 2min longer and 10min
total time longer for both boilers to come up to initial temp. Which is no
biggy since both machines should be on about an hour to be really fully up
to temp, atleast a half hour. (that's what timers are for:-) Though since I
woke up early Saturday, before the Bric's timer, I employed a speed warmup
technique and had my first double shot Americano in hand (Gesha) before the
Brute's brew boiler made it up to temp from power up. (And to be fair I even
turned the Brute on first;-)

The cup the cup the cup. It's all about the cup. Yes, the Brute, with it's
true E61 is great, excellent in the cup. (The lower line Expobars are not
E61 but rather similar to E61 clone groups) Brute better than the Bric'? I
think rotary pulled shots have a bit more clarity, more distinct flavor
characteristics in the shots. But since the intra shot profiles Brute dual
boiler vs Bric' HX are different I can't say that rotary vs vibe is the
clarity factor with a certainty. (Also noticed an even greater distinction
in clarity between the Bric' and Silvia though)

Looks wise the Brute is a straight forward squared off shiny massive
machine, one might say a gleaming Brute of a machine! It has a HUGE drip
tray (2qt IIRC) but with a poor cover design. Specifically a bunch of cut out
holes rather than a wire grid, more prone to spattering. Anyone who's read
anything about the Brute already knows the ample reservoir tank scenario is
terrible. You have to lift off the entire top, as in cup warmer, to fill.
Dumb dumb dumb lazy designers IMO, but in reality wouldn't be an issue if I
had a Brute. (I guarantee he'd be float valve auto-fill mod'd just like my
past Silvia was.) Overall fit and finish "average", just ok. Obvious
difference in finish and style factor between the Brute and Bric', no
contest IMO and Barry & Lois both commented they preferred the look of the
Bric'. But Barry didn't buy the Brute to look at and I didn't buy the Bric'
just for looks (like was about last on my criteria list) just like you won't
buy the Brute for it's looks, it's the feature set and the cup that really
counts! OTH little things like the steam and water knob screws are left with
no finishing cover seems cheap and cheesy on what was a $1500 machine.
(Brewtus II now $1700, and maybe they took care of that)

That said, as I already said, I'd highly recommend the Brewtus for the
person who will primarily pull shots of the same bean, then move on to the
next. But if you'll be needing to vary shot temp a lot, like I do, look at
the HXs.

and follow up post to this question

Thanks Mike for a very thorough review and explanation. From your description, it sounds like the Brute caries over
the design drawback of the HX and actually exacerbates it. If I understand correctly, with the HX, the water in the HX loop can be overheated by staying in the steam boiler too long. You have to flush out a small amount of this too hot water before pulling your shot. It seems like with the Brute you then add a holding tank for this too hot water (the brew boiler) that takes longer to drop to the correct temperature. This seems to defeat the purpose of the dual boilers. Am I missing something? It seems that to truly be a dual boiler machine, that the two systems would be totally separate. This would require more power but I have never understood the big advantage of being able to run on a 15 amp circuit. Most people put their machines in the kitchen where you have 20 amp circuits anyway. Besides, if you are this deep into espresso machines, you probably should install a dedicated circuit for your machine to optimize its performance.
Mike Chester

Yes and no. On a dual boiler pre-heating the inlet water is a very good
thing for shot stability, when done properly. For instance, the most
temperature stable dual boiler machine I know of HX pre-heats the brew
boiler water, ie the GS3. You can slam out shot after shot as fast as your
barista skills allow never varying shot temp more than 0.1f IIRC. If the
water isn't pre-heated on a dual boiler the intra shot temp won't be as
stable because of incoming cold water. Of course the GS3 is like $4500.00
compared to Brewtus I $1500.00.

Also, on HX (shot) machines the issue of the HX water being too hot is only
from machine at idle. HX machines can be tuned for a very stable shot to
shot consistent target temp, a single target temp, as is done in a
commercial HX machine setting where using the same
blend all the time and same shot time desired all the time. Having the
machine tuned to higher temp in the home setting makes it necessary to take
a few seconds to surf each shot yes, with the benefit of being able to "call
each shot temp" on demand.

BTW, all E61 machines require a flush from idle whether dual boiler, HX or
non HX single boiler. From idle the E61 group will be slightly under shot
temp. (group still plenty hot enough to burn the heck out of you even though
it's slightly under shot temp) Dual boiler to bring the group fully up to
shot temp, HX to bring the group up to temp and cool the HX shot water. The
GS3 uses a different design for heating the grouphead and doesn't require
temp stabilizing flush. And it's not like the E61 group is way under temp
from idle, nothing like the ~12f low on Silvia. Pull a series of shots with
a PIDed Silvia and the shot temp will rise 12f or more by about the sixth
shot! (then be stabilized up there) Even just the third shot in the series
will be 4 or 5f higher. Hence the second PID mod for Silvia, group PID
controlled rope heater which can make her very shot series stable. Even more
intra shot stable when doing a boiler inlet pre-heat mod via coiling copper
tubing around the boiler or better yet using a thermoblock from like an old
Gusto. And of course the person I know of who did Silvia's brew boiler PID
mod, group heater PID mod, thermoblock boiler pre-heat mod also got rid of
the vibe pump adding external rotary pump mod. Results a rock stable
espresso shot only machine, but doesn't help going from shot temp to steam
temp. IIRC modding Silvia for dual boiler was on his agenda;-) His "Silvia"
kind of like those VW kit cars that make them look like a high performance
sports car, where you also include swapping the VeeWee engine for a Porche
engine so it really is a high performance sports car.

FWIW I've have no problem running the Bricoletta on a 20A circuit shared with
1000w nuker, Foodsaver, Kitchen Aid blender, food processor etc. Did of
course have the Brute on the kitchen's other 20A circuit. That said when/if
I build a home espresso Cafe it'll have at least 2 dedicated 20A circuits,
plus 220V and gas line;-)

[jason_casale]

I think if you are a fanatic and want the ultimate easy temp control ability the choice is easy the brewtus. If you do not mind flushing the machine using Dans flush routines you can save some money and get an HX machine. The choice comes down to HX or dual boiler 2 very different technologies. I used a linea with a pid and a prewarmer for the brew water to get the most temp stability possible so i can accurately taste espresso at the correct temps. I like being able to easily adjust pump pressure and temp on the fly to dial in any blend you may not. As someone who roasts coffee and sometimes tweaks blends quite a bit this is invaluable. Recently went back to a hx machine and it took a while to get it set up for my blend where I liked it almost 2 hours. adjusting pump pressure and the pressure stat. Not nearly as easy with the pid and external rotary pump. Good luck with whatever you choose. If I had the money it is a no brainer for me the brewtus.

[Maskedman]

And the winner is, there isn't. It's a tie and an apples and oranges kind of thing.

Thanks for the extensive review, but to me it doesn't quite sound like a tie, sounds more like bashing the Brewtus to be honest.

But are they only related to the first Brewtus not the second one?

Thanks,

Thomas

[miKe mcKoffee]

Thanks for the extensive review, but to me it doesn't quite sound like a tie, sounds more like bashing the Brewtus to be honest.

You are of course welcome to your opinion, but I'm not sure what was bashing about it. I attempted to relay what was observed and done. Ok, the bit about cheesy uncovered screws maybe, but that's a looks not functional thing. Was saying "the Brute is an excellent machine for a person who primarily pulls shots of one blend or SO at the same temp (the key factor here is at the same temp, not changing temps between shots) and makes caps or lattes." bashing?

But are they only related to the first Brewtus not the second one?

Thanks,

Thomas

Not knowing what the "they" refers to can't begin to guess. And don't have a BII to play with so couldn't anyway.

[Maskedman]

You are of course welcome to your opinion, but I'm not sure what was bashing about it. I attempted to relay what was observed and done. Ok, the bit about cheesy uncovered screws maybe, but that's a looks not functional thing. Was saying "the Brute is an excellent machine for a person who primarily pulls shots of one blend or SO at the same temp (the key factor here is at the same temp, not changing temps between shots) and makes caps or lattes." bashing?

Yeah, sorry about that. I read it rather quickly and to me, at the time, it just looked like a Bric vs. Brute matchup that didn't really helped me out. But I see your points and I'm going to take them into consideration, I guess I was just hoping that somebody would make the choice for me...naive I know

I guess I'm so new to the more technical side of espresso machines that the information results in overload. I just want the best machine in that particular price range you know?

Thanks again Mike, I really appreciate your feedback

Thomas

[HB]

I'm seriously considering the Brewtus 2, any reasons not to?

Abe compared the Brewtus (I) against the Giotto Premium in the Buyer's Guide to the Expobar Brewtus. I concur with his conclusions, i.e., "Quite simply the Brewtus' no fuss temperature control allows a home barista to use a large range of blends and single origin coffees, and to quickly and accurately determine the optimal brew conditions for each blend." (I also evaluated the Brewtus and noted my comments on the Bench). My main quibble with Brewtus II is the increase in price without adding finer temperature control (1F increments instead of 1C); I would rather have 1F adjustment instead of "no burn" steam arms and another gauge.

That said, I am also satisfied with many HX espresso machines, though I agree with many who observe that more skill is required to produce the same result as a double boiler machine. Is it a significant difference? Therein the debate begins:

Expobar Brewtus II vs. La Spaziale S1
Vetrano vs. Bricoletta vs. ??
Different Question: Andreja Premium or Expobar Brewtus

Just a small sample by searching on "Brewtus".

[miKe mcKoffee]

Yeah, sorry about that. I read it rather quickly and to me, at the time, it just looked like a Bric vs. Brute matchup that didn't really helped me out. But I see your points and I'm going to take them into consideration, I guess I was just hoping that somebody would make the choice for me...naive I know

I guess I'm so new to the more technical side of espresso machines that the information results in overload. I just want the best machine in that particular price range you know?

Thanks again Mike, I really appreciate your feedback

Thomas

No problem, sometimes I can come off as sounding crude, rude and socially impolite without meaning to anyway.

IMO in your target price range there is no best, only different. After temp surfing Miss Silvia for 2&1/2 years before PIDing then realizing PID boiler didn't help with grouphead shot creep then getting into caps' I starting seriously looking at upgrading and I swore I'd never get an HX 'cuz I'd read you had to temp surf them. I'd had more than enough of temp surfing with Silvia! Or so I thought. I'd even been around friends on multiple occasions with HX machines who told me surfing HX was different and easy but it didn't sink in.

While talking to Chris about the pending now seemingly deceased QuickMill dual boiler offering, he mentioned a new rotary Bricoletta (an HX) he'd let go at a steal of a deal. I didn't immediately jump on it. HX=SURF! I'd already read every machine review on HB, went back and spent the next many hours re-reading. Reading Chris's Pro's review of the Bricoletta the 3rd time or so the light came on! For me, an HX would be perfect because I almost never pull a shot of the same coffee back to back. Using the flush & go technique Chris mentioned in his review works great for allowing simply listen for end of flash, count down one thousand one, one thousand two etc. lowering temp 1f per count from known end of flash temp to attain desired temp I want, lock and pull. The three shots I pulled so far today were all at different temps (two different SOs and a blend). Now if I planned ahead I could set a new temp and come back after a dual boiler re-stabilized, but heck I don't know what I'll want to pull next until I walk up and the jars of different rest ready beans talk to me.

On the other hand if I was the type who's consumption style was one blend or SO usually at the same temp, when it's gone move on to another blend or SO I'd be much happier with the dual boiler Brewtus. (or S1) And if the Brute's uncovered steam & water knob screws bothered me too much I'd make covers for 'em. Or be really really really happy with the GS3. Ok, regardless my consumption style I drool over the GS3!

It's all apples, oranges and shades of grey... and yeah, tough decision.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Abe compared the Brewtus (I) against the Giotto Premium in the Buyer's Guide to the Expobar Brewtus. I concur with his conclusions, i.e., "Quite simply the Brewtus' no fuss temperature control allows a home barista to use a large range of blends and single origin coffees, and to quickly and accurately determine the optimal brew conditions for each blend." (I also evaluated the Brewtus and noted my comments on the Bench). My main quibble with Brewtus II is the increase in price without adding finer temperature control (1F increments instead of 1C).

What I don't understand or know is whether the Brewtus I had to play with was defective in some way or not. Todd at WLL didn't seem to think it was a problem saying shot creep normal on the Brewtus. But Abe didn't mention the shot temp creep I observed that required removing the brew boiler insulation to keep a series of shots below 205.Xf. That was my biggest challenge and issue. If I still had Barry's Brute I would try increasing the steam boiler to brew boiler feed line length to bring the incoming brew boiler water lower still. Or based on some other posts today figure out how to lower the HX temp itself. As the Brute came delivered from WLL I suspect the observed shot temp creep may have been why it was buyer's remorse returned and WLL didn't correct it. Or that is just the way it is which doesn't jive with what I'd previously read. But Barry had to sky back to Hawaii and took his Brute with him. (one thing is for certain, I was less than impressed with WLL service dept) Which still wouldn't stop me from getting a Brewtus if it suited my consumption style. Any dual boiler takes a relatively long time to lower shot temp even a couple of degrees! (relatively long time meaning a few minutes as compared to simply a couple additional counts HX surf & go)

[HB]

What I don't understand or know is whether the Brewtus I had to play with was defective in some way or not. Todd at WLL didn't seem to think it was a problem saying shot creep normal on the Brewtus.

Yes, I puzzled over your comment, as I used it for several months and didn't observe the "temperature creep" you reported. As noted in Abe's writeup, the initial offset setting assumes "from idle" usage, not shot-after-shot usage. My initial thought on reading your comment was that you were flushing a lot, which is a hard habit for former HX owners to break. That is, not heeding Abe's "lazy man" flush chart for Brewtus may explain what you observed, but that's only a guess.

[randomperson]

Using the flush & go technique Chris mentioned in his review works great for allowing simply listen for end of flash, count down one thousand one, one thousand two etc. lowering temp 1f per count from known end of flash temp to attain desired temp I want, lock and pull. The three shots I pulled so far today were all at different temps (two different SOs and a blend).
.

Hi mike --

I wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your comparison of the two machines -- very interesting! While I have tentatively (for the moment, maybe!) decided to stick with my Gaggia Classic for a while (no room in my kitchen for these giant machines!) I continue to internally debate the two types of machines -- I guess I'll continue to shop for a year or two, then buy my next machine -- kind of like a car! Anyway, my question is this: I have been confused no end by the "flush and go" description for HX, so at the risk of sounding quite silly, I'll ask my definitive questions: You listen or watch the flash, then count down immediately after the flash ends-- I assume while you are counting you are continuing to flush, is that right? And you are counting down from 206 degrees (the flash point) -- am I right? Once you count down, (and continue your flush) you lock and pull, right? Now, for subsequent shots -- you still listen for the flash (or watch) but it will be a lot shorter duration, I assume, if the shot is a few minutes after the first -- am I right? And you continue then to countdown from there until you reach your desired temp, then lock and pull? Two other questions here: is it easy to know when the flash has ended? Is there a pause or anything before the solid stream? (yes, I have seen the video, but the demarcation was not all that clear for me.) And, if you are making back to back shots, is there a speed at which you can run where you do not have to flush at all in between the shots? (I assume you always have to flush after steaming, right?)

My apologies for these absurd questions -- but to me, it feels more intuitive to flush and go, especially since I am not the fastest at dosing and distribution, so I don't want to have to rush those steps after that first flush. So I like the concept of flush and go but still can't quite fully understand it. Any help you can provide would be most welcome, as I'd like to save those extra hundreds and go with an HX rather than the Brewt, if only for looks alone!

Bah, I'll probably buy a new machine sooner rather than later -- can't get past the fever!

[miKe mcKoffee]

Yes, I puzzled over your comment, as I used it for several months and didn't observe the "temperature creep" you reported. As noted in Abe's writeup, the initial offset setting assumes "from idle" usage, not shot-after-shot usage. My initial thought on reading your comment was that you were flushing a lot, which is a hard habit for former HX owners to break. That is, not heeding Abe's "lazy man" flush chart for Brewtus may explain what you observed, but that's only a guess.

I don't think the shot creep had anything to do with initial E61 warming flush. But yes, after every shot I always grouphead flush & PF wiggle flush, always. Then build the next shot. But pulling the next shot in under a minute, even 90sec from end of wiggle flush, IIRC even 2 min, the temp rose shot to shot and stabilized at 205.6/205.7f, regardless the brew boiler setting. (Before removing brew boiler insulation). Really seems the HX feeding the brew boiler was/is improperly tuned on this particular Brute.

[onemoreshot]

I'm obviously not that technically minded, I don't own a Fluke or Scace or for that matter another pressure gauge, though I may someday own all three. For now I am quite happy to bumble along without external devices. I do own a BII and I do pull a lot of different SO beans and homemade blends at different temps. I like experimenting. Perhaps with less data analysis than some. I probably understand my machine less that I should but that's my downfall as perhaps foolishly I experiment with taste rather than data collection (though I understand the benefits to data collection and am not trying to minimize anyone else's approach). For Brewtus resources I really appreciate the Brewtus Users group which has done a lot of work and reported a lot of data that I thought was quite useful. I also enjoyed reading the technical observations on the BI in this thread, thx. Abe's review on this site, on the BII helped me a lot and I still refer back to it now and then. Having said all that...

I like the BII. It comes with its own set of pros and cons; like any machine. What might work very well for me, may not suit you or someone else. I like the ease of setting a temp and knowing it will do what it is supposed to do with very little fuss.
Today I have pulled approx eight shots. Choosing from three of six jars. I pulled SO and also blended it up. I did change temp twice. With the exception of one shot, I enjoyed them all. My shots are pulled in a leisurely fashion, (I'm not a demanding customer, and my kitchen isn't a commercial environment, haha) but I am reasonably precise in my shot process though I also use some intuitive feel as well. I guess there isn't a point to this post other than to say I really enjoy what I get from the BII. I know I'm not totally out of whack as I still mentally compare the end result in the cup to other espresso I have tasted which have been pulled by barista's far more talented than I on much more exotic hardware at the SCAA.

Taste is a funny thing. What I like you may not. Fortunately I have found that the BII allows me to taste espresso as I see fit to taste it, understanding that the BII is only a small part of a larger chain of events which starts (for me) by sourcing really good green beans. I think if you got the BII you would be happy. You would no doubt also be happy with a number of other excellent machine choices. You are doing the right thing; asking questions, listening to opinions and doing due diligence. Don't compromise on the research leading up to your purchase, research is free. Once you purchase your machine, its time to enjoy pulling shots.

[miKe mcKoffee]

As noted in Abe's writeup, the initial offset setting assumes "from idle" usage, not shot-after-shot usage. My initial thought on reading your comment was that you were flushing a lot, which is a hard habit for former HX owners to break.

I think I definitely ruled out offset as an issue and anything that had to do with the brew boiler itself. And believe or nuts, I did read the manual's suggestion of 2oz E61 warming flush and started from there. Even when I set the brew boiler way down to 80c still maintained ~205.6f shot temps in a series! Now that 24oz non-stop pull at ~2oz/25sec wasn't replicating a shot, just attempting to determine the approx' water temp feeding the brew boiler. Was very bizarre watching the Thermofilter rock solid minutely toggling 205.6/205.7f for the entire 24oz with the brew boiler basically turned off! That's when I came to the conclusion the boiler inlet water had to be too high. Had to be or my thinking totally out of whack. But that test was done only after observing shot to shot temp creep. And that also told me that with the HX feeding the brew boiler properly tuned that puppy could be intra shot temp rock stable.

[HB]

Even when I set the brew boiler way down to 80c still maintained ~205.6f shot temps in a series! Now that 24oz non-stop pull at ~2oz/25sec wasn't replicating a shot, just attempting to determine the approx' water temp feeding the brew boiler. Was very bizarre watching the Thermofilter rock solid minutely toggling 205.6/205.7f for the entire 24oz with the brew boiler basically turned off!

I'm glad that wasn't my machine! Vibratory pumps are only meant to run for one minute with one minute of rest. Wouldn't 24 ounces exceed that several times over? I cannot make any sense out of what you describe or what you are doing to "test" it. Maybe the Expobar factory worker forgot they were assembling a Brewtus and accidently hooked the HX line directly to the grouphead instead of dumping into the brew boiler...

(I'm kidding)

[miKe mcKoffee]

I cannot make any sense out of what you describe or what you are doing to "test" it.

Your replies to my posts make it very clear you are not understanding the observed symptoms, nor probable root cause. Detailed answer on what how and why given once again in Knockbox thread replying to your last post there.

[KimH]

I know it is a long time since this thread was active. But Maskedman, which machine did you choose to buy? and why?

I am in a similar situation and has almost chosen the Andreja Premium.

Regards
kh

[cafeIKE]

I know it is a long time since this thread was active. But Maskedman, which machine did you choose to buy? and why?

I am in a similar situation and has almost chosen the Andreja Premium.

Regards
kh

You may want to check out Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super

A couple of months before the original post, those three machines were on the short list. The Vibiemme made the cut and I have 0 regrets.

[Maskedman]

I know it is a long time since this thread was active. But Maskedman, which machine did you choose to buy? and why?

I am in a similar situation and has almost chosen the Andreja Premium.

Regards
kh

Hi Kh,

After having some trouble getting a Brewtus II from a danish dealer I finally caved in and bought a Andreja Premium.

I haven't looked back since and I've been very very happy with the machine and the quality of my coffee.

You won't regret buying one that's for sure.

And you're more than welcome to contact me if you want to try it out at my place.

Kind regards,

Thomas