Cappuccino vs. Latte

[kiwi_barista]

...or is it a latte vs cappuccino? when i first started learning the art of coffee making i was told that a latte was 1/3 coffee 1/3 milk and a 1/3 froth i was recently told that this is actually the make up of a cappuccino. i was wondering what one it was latte or cappuccino.

[HB]

I've often heard a cappuccino defined as a drink of thirds; searching the Internet, you'll have no trouble finding plenty of similar "1/3 espresso, 1/3 foam, 1/3 steamed milk" definitions. The SCAA competitions were recently held in our region and of course this question came up at the judges' certification workshop. You might expect that a competition would lay down rigid measures, but I was surprised that they simply defined a cappuccino as a harmonious balance of espresso, steamed milk, and frothed milk. That leaves plenty of wiggle room for regional differences.

The Judges Rules & Regulations added some other criteria:

Visually correct cappuccino:
All styles of cappuccinos are acceptable. A cappuccino is a beverage of ratios, producing a harmonious balance of espresso, steamed milk and frothed milk. A traditional cappuccino is a five- to six-ounce beverage (150 to 180 ml.), served in a five- to six-ounce (150 to 180 ml.) porcelain cappuccino cup with a handle and a rounded interior base.

Consistency and persistence of foam:
Foam should be smooth, silky and free of bubbles. Judges will evaluate under the surface with a spoon for total perception of consistency throughout the drink.

Taste balance:
The taste balance should be a harmonious blend of the sweetness of the milk and the espresso as a building block. The drink should not be too milky: a distinct taste of espresso should be present.

Although it's not a part of the SCAA's definition, my purist definition doesn't allow for mondo-cappuccinos (e.g., a twelve ounce "double cappuccino"). Latte definitions are less disputed, with most agreeing it's a milk drink with a thin layer of foam. In my area, they are generally served in twelve ounce cups instead of the 4.5-5.5 ounce cups for cappuccinos. Due to the lower ratio of the espresso base, the predominant flavor is sweet milk.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I've often heard a cappuccino defined as a drink of thirds; searching the Internet, you'll have no trouble finding plenty of similar "1/3 espresso, 1/3 foam, 1/3 steamed milk" definitions. The SCAA competitions were recently held in our region and of course this question came up at the judges' certification workshop. You might expect that a competition would lay down rigid measures, but I was surprised that they simply defined a cappuccino as a harmonious balance of espresso, steamed milk, and frothed milk. That leaves plenty of wiggle room for regional differences.

Indeed! I wish I'd found this post before yesterday's NWRBC judges cert' workshop! I'd read the judge's & competitor's rules & regs multiple times before hand so was at the same quandary of having been led to believe a cappuccino was a beverage of 1/3 ratios espresso, steam milk and foam and couldn't figure out how that was supposed to work in 5 or 6oz cappuccino cups. One place I learned this 1/3 rule was the oft' referred Milk Frothing Guide on CG which states The cup itself should hold 5 to 7oz and no more. Sharing the space in the cup in one-third proportions is one shot of espresso, one-third steamed milk, topped by one-third foam. The only way that ratio would work would be a double shot but seems such is not the case in SCAA reality! One-third of a six ounce cap' cup is 2oz, that ain't no single shot!

So of course I brought question up in the workshop. And this caused me some problems in the practice taste calibrations finding the espresso in the cappuccinos very lacking. This morning did some more researching and now find at least one place Schomer referring to a cappuccino as a ratio of about 5:1, which makes more sense as presented by the SCAA competitions.

Seems what I've been making at home using a double shot is halfway between a cappuccino and ~1:1 ratio machiatto.

[peechdogg]

Seems what I've been making at home using a double shot is halfway between a cappuccino and ~1:1 ratio machiatto.

It seems my cappuccinos have been closer to what you describe, too.

[Dogshot]

I'm familiar with, but never understood the thirds rule for capps within the context of our North American use of microfoam. Microfoam is usually described as having a uniform consistency. Poor foaming results are often typified as having a marshmallow in the pitcher that does not want to integrate. So, does anybody make a more traditional drier foam for their capps, or is the milk supposed to separate out into equal parts foam and milk in a capp? Or is the free-floating definition of a capp listed in Dan's post above intended to incorporate the idea of microfoam into a modern capp?

Mark

[cannonfodder]

I have always understood the 'traditional' cappuccino to be a drink of 1/3's and that is how I make them at home. While my microfoam is incorporated with the milk as one homogeneous mixture, I stretch cappuccino's about another 10 degrees F more than latte milk. When I pour I get the rolling crema effect in the milk, the microfoam separates out over 30 or so seconds giving me a drink of thirds.

Lattes settle out to more like ¼ microfoam using the same procedure but with a shortened stretch. My lattes are still 6-7oz, say 2oz espresso 3-4oz steamed milk with 1oz of microfoam. Those 12oz latte drinks are best left to the big cafe chains that cant make a decent tasting espresso.

[King Seven]

Working my way back through my coffee literature I have come to the conclusion that the definition of thirds has come from poor punctuation.

Often you see the following phrase:

"A cappuccino is an espresso mixed with equal parts of foamed and steamed milk."

This would imply that all ingredients are there in equal quantities but what they are often trying to communicate is that the milk and foam are equal, and only the milk and the foam are equal. This would change the ratio from 1:1:1 to perhaps 1:2:2 or maybe 1:3:3 (should you like a weaker drink). The 1:2:2 is what I enjoy, and what I tend to find when in Italy. Problem is, for coffee houses whose focus is retail not coffee, that 5oz isn't really the best size of drink to sell and hence the lovely 5oz capp is rarely found.

You can serve a great drink of thirds (a 6 oz double shot capp) and call it a cappuccino if you like but often you see it called Traditional or Classic and I don't really believe that to be the case, as I am unaware of any tradition or history of a drink with that recipe. (I am not picking on those that do it - it really is a great drink that I am delighted to see people serving it!).

[jrtatl]

Working my way back through my coffee literature I have come to the conclusion that the definition of thirds has come from poor punctuation.

Often you see the following phrase:

"A cappuccino is an espresso mixed with equal parts of foamed and steamed milk."

This would imply that all ingredients are there in equal quantities but what they are often trying to communicate is that the milk and foam are equal, and only the milk and the foam are equal.

Agreed.

Granted, I'm not perfect with punctuation. However, I see so many people play fast and loose with punctuation, either through ignorance or laziness that it hurts. Either way it causes a problem. (especially in the legal profession)

Eats, Shoots & Leaves should be required reading before registering to vote.

[HB]

While my microfoam is incorporated with the milk as one homogeneous mixture, I stretch cappuccino's about another 10 degrees F more than latte milk.

I don't drink many lattes, but when I prepare them for my wife's friends, I stretch them to 70-80F and then texturize the milk to ~150F. For cappuccinos, it's more like 100-110F for stretching, or just about the point that the sides of the pitcher feel warm. For awhile I tried stretching the milk as high as 140F. It made for beautiful white caps just like I remember from Rome, but they were drier and lacked sweetness.

On a related note, one of our site sponsors, Chris Nachtrieb, mentioned that he gets several calls a week asking him for suggestions on how to properly stretch / texturize milk to produce sweet microfoam. In looking over the site's threads, I found lots of fragmented suggestions, but no one "in a nutshell" thread. If I get a free moment, I'd like to bring them together into a nice digest similar to your tamp and dose techniques digest. A missing piece is good videos to convey the sound with the motion. It's hard to appreciate how small a difference in movement makes in the stretching phase. Your video is the only one I found in the HB forums.

From Milk Frothing in a McDonald's Hot Cup

[miKe mcKoffee]

I don't drink many lattes, but when I prepare them for my wife's friends, I stretch them to 70-80F and then texturize the milk to ~150F. For cappuccinos, it's more like 100-110F for stretching, or just about the point that the sides of the pitcher feel warm. For awhile I tried stretching the milk as high as 140F. It made for beautiful white caps just like I remember from Rome, but they were drier and lacked sweetness.

It's finally sinking in. It's not so much the ratio of total milk but rather the milk consistency. Talking to a NWRBC competing barista last weekend she commented one the the pairs of cappuccinos she served the judges she thought were lattes. Same size beverage served but she had challenges steaming on the LM and didn't get good foam but mostly steamed milk.

[luca]

I'd read the judge's & competitor's rules & regs multiple times before hand so was at the same quandary of having been led to believe a cappuccino was a beverage of 1/3 ratios espresso, steam milk and foam and couldn't figure out how that was supposed to work in 5 or 6oz cappuccino cups.

Yeah ... same thing happened to us before the Victorian barista comp ...

One explanation that I have heard is that the 1/3rd/1/3rd/1/3rd ratio thing refers to height in a tulip cup ... still doesn't make sense to me, though ...

[BentheBarista]

Yeah--I think that's a cappuccino. A latte can have a bit of froth on the top, but nowhere near 1/3.

Actually, if we wanted to get technical, a cappuccino would never have espresso in it. In fact, espresso was originally made in Italy to speed up the long process of a cappuccino--or so the legend goes.

But, most old cappuccino recipes are hard to come by. The perfect cappuccino is supposed to be the greatest coffee drink in the world--the impeccable combination of arabic beans and delicate cream. But, no one makes that anymore.

-Ben

[CGP4]

Here's Italy's official definition of a cappuccino. No such thing as a latte in Italy...

[BentheBarista]

Here's Italy's official definition of a cappuccino. No such thing as a latte in Italy...

Wow--weird recipe.

The Modern Marvel's Coffee episode says that espresso was invented to speed along the consumption of dry cappuccinos...crazy--how can you drink an espresso-made cappuccino before the advent of espresso?

Total conflict of evidence. One source is full of it.

-Ben

[RapidCoffee]

You can serve a great drink of thirds (a 6 oz double shot capp) and call it a cappuccino if you like but often you see it called Traditional or Classic and I don't really believe that to be the case, as I am unaware of any tradition or history of a drink with that recipe.

Like many on this thread, I've been calling my preferred espresso beverage a cappuccino. While I enjoy milk or cream in my coffee, more than 3-4oz added to a double shot is too milky for my taste buds. I've been referring to higher ratio drinks (1:5 or greater) as lattes.

But who am I to buck the tides of coffee correctness? I'd just like to know what to call the artist-formerly-known-as-cappuccino. "Drink of thirds" is too clumsy; "traditional" and "classic" could mean anything.

Is that an H-B poll I hear in the distance?

[sehrgut]

Hmmm . . . I've always referred to my favourite drink as a cappuccino, too, and now don't know exactly where it would fall. A doppio with 2.5 oz of milk frothed to an even consistency and allowed to separate in the cup. It generally comes out to a bit less than 2/3 liquid and 1/3+ froth lying on top, height-wise. But my the cups I use for cappas are rather narrow at the bottom, flaring out at the top, so volume-wise, it's probably closer to half-and-half. I don't care for milk in my coffee much (especially when trying new beans/roasts, as I've just started roasting), so I feel as if I'm drowning the coffee if I use too much milk.

[cannonfodder]

Sounds a lot like a macchiato heavy on the foam.

[Psyd]

Those 12oz latte drinks are best left to the big cafe chains that cant make a decent tasting espresso.

Now now! Let's not get snobbish! A twelve ounce drink is perfectly acceptable if it contains the proper ratios! Two doubleshots in a twelve ounce cup with eight ounces of microfoam is perfectly acceptable for me, if the opportunity to come get another one is taken out of the equation. Of course, I'd prefer a second cappuccino made to order after a first, but conditions sometimes don't allow it, so I combine the two drinks into one cup and get on my merry way.
OTOH, this conversation (to a certain degree) relates to another that is taking place occasionally on the Barista Guild of America forum pages. They talk of certification, and I respond with standardization. If the SCAA can't decide what a cappa is for competitive purposes, there is no way that they'll ever be able to get a certification process that's meaningful.
IMNSHO, I think that we should start with the Italians' definition of the humble cappuccino as probably the nearest thing that we have to an authority on the subject.

[cannonfodder]

Now now! Let's not get snobbish! A twelve ounce drink is perfectly acceptable if it contains the proper ratios!

Yes, I will not argue against that. I have had 3 double shots in a tall milk drink before. But most of those mermaid cafe shops use an ounce or two of bad espresso with 11 ounces of scalded milk.

[Psyd]

But most of those mermaid cafe shops use

Sorry, I thought we were talking about places you could get espresso at. ; >
I've stopped using the Mermaid as a ruler. You used to be able to define the bottom end of acceptable (sorta like those disposable tires the auto industry is using nowadays, it'll get you there, but I wouldn't want to have to rely on it for any length of time!) but since their quality had slipped off the end of the scale, and their consistency ain't, they really don't have any mark to measure from. Unfortunately, there are independent shops that actually do less well than they do, so they can't even describe the bottom!