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Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super - Page 4

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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by Marshall on Mon May 28, 2007 10:50 pm

cannonfodder wrote:Let me elaborate. In the United States, every E61 machine I have used does not have a flow restrictor. The manufacturers do not put them in US bound E61's. My understanding is that they are commonplace on machines bound for other markets. I don't know why that is. That is why I point it out as a significant feature.

If someone can list any other US market E61's with factory installed thermosyphon flow restrictors, please do so. I know the Elektra, Isomac, Faema and Expobar do not have them installed for the US market.


Maybe you are thinking of a different kind of flow restrictor, but my Isomac Zaffiro shipped with a 1.0 mm gicleur. It typically produced a flow that was noticeably faster at the front of the brewhead, opposite where the flow entered the brew area. My pours started at the front of the screen and turned blonde there well before the rest of the puck.

I took the Isomac to Michael Teahan's shop to see if he had any ideas. He immediately opened one of the two hex nuts on top (I forget which one) and showed me the flow restrictor, which he said was large for an E61. He pulled it out with a tweezer and then dropped in several gicleurs of different sizes to see how they changed the pour (which they did, dramatically). We settled on an 0.5mm restrictor, and my problem was immediately and permanently solved.
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by HB on Mon May 28, 2007 11:07 pm

Marshall wrote:Maybe you are thinking of a different kind of flow restrictor...

Dave is referring to a thermosyphon flow restrictor, which helps modulate the boiler heat transferred to the grouphead. Jon posted pictures and explanation in Installing thermosyphon restrictor on expobar office pulser and others elaborated specifically on the Super's in Size of Vibiemme Domobar Super E61 restrictor?
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Tue May 29, 2007 11:13 am

Sorry about the confusion Marshall. I was not referring the group jet/gicleur, although it would be interesting to see what size gicleur the Super uses. The grouphead flow rate without a portafilter is unremarkable. It appears to be no faster or slower than your average vibratory pump driven E61 machine. I can measure the flow rate if someone wants that bit of information.

As Dan points out, I was referring the flow restrictor in the thermosyphon which helps control idle group temperature. My impression is that they are absent from US bound machines but present in most machines bound for other markets. Again, that is my impression based on little snippets of information I have read here and there. I have no substantiated proof of this and encourage anyone with contrary or confirming information to post it.
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cafeIKE on Tue May 29, 2007 12:36 pm

cannonfodder wrote:I can measure the flow rate if someone wants that bit of information.

There's not much point. There's a fairly wide tolerance in the performance of the Ulka E5. Add in a few cumulative manufacturing tolerance and the number could be specific to the pump / machine / group combo you alone have.

<rant>
It makes damn fine espresso :!:
Bugger the numbers :wink:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by HB on Wed May 30, 2007 12:05 am

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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by HB on Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm

In addition to my role as color commentary contributor to this thread, I log thermometry data to confirm Dave's recommended brew temperature management techniques that he's developed using more holistic methods (namely "water dancing" and taste testing). This tag team approach speeds the review process and helps assure consistency across the Buyer's Guide series.

Below are a couple videos showing my early investigation using Eric's E61 thermometer adaptor (a production version of Dave's do it yourself model). The first video is the traditional flush and rebound, as described in HX Love. The target temperature is around 200F, which worked well for Rocket Reserve:

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6270636544465718678[/gvideo]

I've noted some HX espresso machines perform poorly with the "flush and go" technique, others will only perform well with flush and go, and some work either way if you twiddle the boiler pressure. My theory is that most of this preferred usage is attributable to the heat exchanger size and injector depth. The Vibiemme exhibits a classic E61 "HX hump" and seems to favor the traditional flush and [short] rebound approach.

After a few tries, I wondered if the Vibiemme would produce a flatter brew temperature profile using Eric's "flush and wait" approach. This alternative to flush and go / flush and rebound hasn't been talked about much in the forums, but in a nutshell, it's a slow reverse surf. I flushed down to ~198 and then watched the grouphead thermometer slowly rise to the target temperature:

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2074075821549000604[/gvideo]

I overshot the target temperature, but the overall profile is much flatter. It's a slow technique and only practical if you have Eric's adapter, still it may be worth updating the HX Love article to describe these three techniques (flush and go, flush and rebound, flush and wait).

Those who've watched flush videos with the thermocouple may notice the thermometer reacts more slowly compared to a type T thermocouple. It catches up by the last 5 or 10 seconds and the readings merge, similar to the curves shown in the thermofilter versus thermocouple adapter graph:

Image

With the flush and wait approach, the readings track much more closely, maybe lagging by two degrees and catching up before the midpoint (sorry, when I made the video, I wasn't looking closely at the thermometer after I raised the lever). The ever industrious Eric has a type T thermocouple that's the same diameter for those who wish to swap between ultra-fast thermocouple responsiveness and the more aesthetically pleasing all-in-one thermometer / adapter. While I can readily nail the brew temperature within one degree with Valentina nowadays using a thermocouple, I think more Zen would be required for that level of consistency using the thermometer version. Then again, what would I do with my weekends without this extra challenge? Buy a double boiler and make espresso all day? :lol:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Thu May 31, 2007 11:13 am

I have Eric's adapter installed with the thermocouple instead of the thermometer. It responds faster but I believe it initially reads high then settles in after the first 4-5 seconds. Once I get my thermofilter I can do a graph or two showing the delta between the two measuring points as well as a general temperature profile.

The wife is off to a wedding in Michigan this weekend, along with the camera so no video production this weekend.
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by erics on Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:18 am

CF brings up an excellent point (amoungst many others) on Page 1 of this review when he says:

cannonfodder wrote:I have had the machine on for 4 hours now. I was wondering how hot the water in the reservoir gets as well as the cup warmer. The Fluke tells me the water reservoir is 91F and the cup warmer is a toasty 146F.


I have some 24" bulb thermometers laying around so I put one about midway in Anita's full water tank yesterday and noted tank temps of around 95 F after she was on for several hours. After a few more hours tank temp was approaching 100 F.

Note that the Vibiemme Domobar returns water (from the OPV) that is essentially at supply temperature back to the tank whereas, in direct contrast, the OPV on Quickmill machines like Anita and Andreja return water to the tank that has passed through the hx. Now this probably makes for very little temp difference if you are running a full tank but when the water reservoir is on the low side and you are feeding it OPV water at 200 F +, I might expect some unusual temperature/tastebud readings.
Skol,

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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:09 pm

That is interesting. I wonder why they put the OPV on the hot side of the system. All 3 of my machines vent on the cold side.

The Super also has a thin piece of insulation on the inside of the inner housing. That is there to help slow the warming effect that the large boiler has on the reservoir water.

The wife left the camera at the house, she must have taken a different one, or just forgot it. So I will be pulling some shots and posting some video's this weekend. It is supposed to be cloudy and stormy in Ohio, so I will have to stay inside and make drinks all weekend, darn. :roll:
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Vibiemme Domobar double shot video using caffee fresco and mazzer kony

Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:28 am

The Vibiemme is cranking out some darn good shots. I have most definitely gotten into 'the zone' with the machine. My previous observations still stand. The Super is more than capable of producing some darn good espresso and its steaming ability is the best of any small boiler machine I have used. The flavors produced are a harmonic blend and equal to better than other E61 group machines on the market (thanks Caffe Fresco!). Here is an average shot from the machine. If this does not make your mouth water and heart patter, you must be dead.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4781837225837749690[/gvideo]
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:42 pm

To make room for the Titan Grinder Project, I moved the Super off my test table and to a kitchen cabinet. There is enough room for cups but it is tight.

Image Image

My biggest concern was moving the machine from under the cabinets to fill the water reservoir. The feet on the Super are short but stout with stick-on rubber dots to keep the machine from moving around. Unfortunately, they keep the machine from moving around. With the boiler and water reservoir full, you cannot just slide it around, this thing is heavy.

But where there is a will, there is a way. I can remove the cup warmer and use my small thermos to fill the water tank. It takes a few thermoses of water to fill the big reservoir but it sure beats trying to move the machine.

Image
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by HB on Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:08 pm

There may be some among the membership who read the Bench threads and think, "It must be really fun to play with all that high-end equipment!" There are probably others who think, "Oh brother, these guys really need to get a life." For the former group, I present a sample of the less glamorous side of the Bench: Carefully mapping out the thermodynamic characteristics of a particular espresso machine. While Dave is busy going the heuristic route, I double check his findings with thermocouples and lab quality thermometers.

I made the series of videos below early in the review cycle. The larger readout is the temperature from the E61 group thermocouple and the smaller readout is the temperature registered by the thermofilter. The purpose of this series was to "feel out" the best flush regime for the Vibiemme at service intervals in the 1:30 to 4:30 minutes range. The target end temperature was ~200F.

Given our findings from the heuristic and analytical approach, the Buyer's Guide will provide a recipe for optimal usage. Typically the guides will include a "keep it simple" approach that will satisfy the majority of espresso enthusiasts (e.g., Bob Yellin's three easy rules to brew temperature management). If appropriate, a second set of hints is distilled from the Bench research for those who want to maximize the machine's performance, even beyond its original design (i.e., HX espresso machine designers probably weren't thinking of < 1.5F brew temperature reproducibility, but it's possible with modest skills given the feedback from an E61 thermocouple adapter).

4:25
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2863878145341325513[/gvideo]

1:48
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3645970971533709580[/gvideo]

3:51
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7254375991564967590[/gvideo]

2:51
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8262817707816583671[/gvideo]

1:35
[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-707443298742532[/gvideo]
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by Randy G. on Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:14 pm

cannonfodder wrote:To make room for the Titan Grinder Project, I moved the Super off my test table and to a kitchen cabinet. There is enough room for cups but it is tight.

But where there is a will, there is a way. I can remove the cup warmer and use my small thermos to fill the water tank. It takes a few thermoses of water to fill the big reservoir but it sure beats trying to move the machine.


What about getting something like a large air pot and attaching a hose to the output? Put the hose in the reservoir and pump the water in... From the pics of your kitchen, I have to assume that you have a special storage room just for airpots! :wink:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by harris on Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:01 pm

Great stuff so far, I have question.

After reading about the larger steam arm and seeing the video of the steam "power", how difficult is it to steam 2-4oz of milk?
Is a macchiato out of the question?

The Super might not be that super for a single user without a different steam tip, right?


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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cafeIKE on Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:52 pm

harris wrote:After reading about the larger steam arm and seeing the video of the steam "power", how difficult is it to steam 2-4oz of milk?
As long as you use an appropriately sized pitcher, it's not difficult at all. Just takes a bit of finesse with the steam knob and pitcher.

harris wrote:Is a macchiato out of the question?
Not at all. Of course, some consider it 'cheating' to use 'alf & 'alf, but it does make for a very delicious potion. :wink:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:16 pm

The Titan Grinder Project has had me distracted for the past couple of weeks. I need to put more time back in the review.

While you can do tiny amounts of milk, it is no easy task, at least for me. I just find it difficult to finesse the steam valve while trying to position and work the pitcher. If 3oz of milk was all I ever frothed, I would get a single hole steam tip and turn the boiler down to 1.0 bar at the highest.

The nice thing about a large boiler, you can tune it down to suite your needs. Then when needed, you can turn the power back up. You can make a big boiler do a small job but you can not make a small boiler do a big job.
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cafeIKE on Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:13 pm

HB wrote:I double check his findings with thermocouples and lab quality thermometers.

How about posting graphs instead of videos? :evil: Or at least in addition for those not of the MTV generation? :roll:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by Randy G. on Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:39 pm

cafeIKE wrote:How about posting graphs instead of videos? :evil: Or at least in addition for those not of the MTV generation? :roll:


How about those of us who are on dialup at 28.8... on a GOOD day! Currently connected at 26.4Kbps... :cry:
Tried four or five (unsuccessful) times to download the milk steaming video yesterday.... :roll:
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by HB on Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:11 pm

cafeIKE wrote:How about posting graphs instead of videos? :evil: Or at least in addition for those not of the MTV generation? :roll:

When I have time, I will plot some of them. Unfortunately I only have a Fluke 54-II without the datalogging software, so I have to key in each data point by hand into Excel. I posted the last series of videos to offer insight into the process behind a review, not show specific results.
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Link to "Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super"by cannonfodder on Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:57 pm

Like Dan, I do not have the software to do the downloads and hand key into Excel from the Flukes memory to create the chart. I actually brought my meter to work today so I could key in data for a flush chart using Eric's thermocouple adapter. Unfortunately, work and spare time do not often meet. I will get one or two up when the opportunity allows.
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