Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super - Page 3

[cannonfodder]

err, that's watts / volts = amps , more or less.

That was supposed to be volts times amps equals watts. Then change the formula for the known variables.

I will pull the covers again when I have a moment and put the datalogger on the heating element to check the voltage draw as well as the internal power connector.

[cannonfodder]

I do drop below 8 bars though while I am 9.5 to 10 while brewing. Maybe others can say if this is normal or if I should consider the project.

Dan has the uber espresso geek mad scientist kit. He has some pressure transducers and the computer software to profile the machine. We did note a slightly larger than normal dip in the pressure but nothing as drastic as what you are reporting. We are both (Dan and I) getting a half bar dip when the heater kicks in. My Isomac is just a shade less than that but not enough to be remarkable.

My Super has a very long power cord, 7 feet. That my be causing the extra little dip. We are working on proving or disproving that theory. That test is still a week or two away.

We will be posting pressure and temperature profiles but that takes time to compile and we are still waiting on a part or two.

[edwa]

Stellar photography on this thread! I nominate the milk steaming video to be cross posted to a Milk Steaming guide.

Is the unit's steam production too powerful to get good results with a 5-6 oz SS pitcher for those of us doing the "No waste Macchiato"?

[cannonfodder]

Thank you, I am glad you are enjoying it.

I can do 5oz of milk with no problem. I used more milk in the video just for the sake of the video. With a little pitcher it is hard to see the milk rolling. It is almost too turbulent to see clearly on video.

To prolong the stretching phase, you would want to use ice cold milk. I normally steam 5oz for a traditional cappuccino (6oz total) with very little waste. For diminutive amounts of milk you may want to try a smaller steam tip like the single hole Barry posted about earlier. You could also run lower boiler pressure. One of the benefits of a larger boiler is that less boiler pressure is needed for steaming due to the increased volume of steam. On my two group (11 liter boiler) I run a meager 0.8 bar and it will still steam as much milk as you could drink. Cutting the Super's boiler pressure down to 0.8 bar would get you longer steam times.

A possible side effect may be a cold group. With the thermosyphon restrictor, the lower temperature may not sufficiently heat the group which maintains around 200F at 1.1 bar.

[cannonfodder]

I was going to get our ammeter from work to get some heating element and total machine amperage today. Unfortunately, someone left the meter on the roof of the building after working on a freezer unit. Then it got rained on for a couple of days, then the person that left it up there decided to try cleaning it up with some Zep industrial cleaner. That stripped every bit of print off the meter, so needless to say, it does not work any longer. So, no amperage readings for a while.

I did get some voltage readings. From the internal power tap with the power off I get 122 volts, no surprise there. When the machine is powered on I get 116 volt draw. The machine specs a 120 volt draw. I moved the meter to the heating element, again I get 116 volt draw, no big insight.

Seeing how most vibratory pump machines suffer from a pressure drop when the heating element engages I decided to check the pump out. That is where I had a bit of a surprise and am not sure what is going on. I was getting 7 volts while it was at rest, 123 volts from the pump while it was running. When the heating element kicked in it dropped to 117 volts.


Another thought, the UKLA pump is rated at 120 volts so the 116 volt draw I was getting would be insufficient to power it. I wonder if there is a step up transformer on the pump circuit. If I add the 7 volt idle power reading I was getting to the 116 volt draw I do get 123 volts.

[cannonfodder]

Ease of service is one factor that distinguishes the commercial espresso machine from the home or 'prosumer' espresso machine. Commercial machines are also assembled with heavier parts, sturdier fittings and more modular design. When your business depends on one piece of equipment, that machine has to be reliable. It must also be easily and quickly repaired in the event of a failure.

I have busted knuckles, sliced fingers and scraped the skin off my hands trying to work on some of the 'prosumer' machines. Vibiemme stepped up to the plate on the Domobar Super design. No gyrations are required for a basic teardown and replacement of failing parts. The entire outer casing comes off in under two minutes. The outer shell is held on with 6 large slotted screws, three on either side. You simply unscrew them and lift the shell off the machine.



You have side access to the inner workings once the shell is removed. Inside the machine is an inner housing that separates the water reservoir from the boiler and electronics. That is easily removed by unscrewing two stainless steel Phillips head screws located on top of the inner cover and two small Phillips head screws located at the rear, bottom of the machine. Once removed the inner housing tilts back and lifts off the chassis.

All the internal workings are easily accessible once the cover is removed. Dominating the inside of the machine is the large copper boiler. Across the top of the boiler (moving left to right) is the vacuum breaker and a three-way fitting that supplies the steam wand, boiler pressure gauge and pressurestat. Located in the top center of the boiler is the upper thermosyphon line. To the right of that is the boiler pressure relief valve which is set at 1.8 bar and then the water level sensor probe. Under the boiler is the lower thermosyphon line and heat exchanger inlet.



The boiler is supported by a large U-bracket that is brazed to the front and rear portion of the boiler's underside. That bracket is then screwed to the frame providing ample support. That support relieves tension on the thermosyphon lines, which adds to longevity and reduces the risk of strain-related leaks.

The Parker pressurestat sits high in the frame. This unit does not use a solid state relay (SSR), rather it directly controls the heating element via contacts that close when the pressure in the boiler drops. The Parker pressurestat is rated for 25 amps at 300 volts. The contacts close with an audible click. It is far from being noisy, but noticeable in a quiet room. But if you were looking for a super-quiet espresso machine, you would not be purchasing a vibratory pump driven machine.



Vibiemme has made adjusting the pressurestat very easy. Removing the cup warmer tray from the top of the machine reveals a small black plug atop the inner metal housing. Simply lift the plug off and insert a slotted screwdriver into the adjustment screw. The adjustment on the Parker pressurestat is very wide. Unlike most of the smaller pressurestats, a full revolution of the adjustment makes a small change in the boiler pressure. That makes fine tuning the pressure much easier.



The pressurestat on my machine has a 0.13 bar deadband, which is on par with other pressurestats of this type. Another noteworthy feature is the pressurestat support bracket. While some machines rely on the pressurestat tubing for support, the Vibiemme Domobar Super uses a heavy piece of zinc plated steel. The mount is screwed to the base of the frame and extends up the right side of the machine. The pressurestat is mounted to the steel bar, relieving undue strain on the copper line and fitting. The mounting bracket is clearly visible on the right side of the machine.



The 41 watt ULKA vibratory pump is mounted on the left side of the frame. The pump is completely rubber mounted to dampen vibration.



The OPV (Over Pressure Valve) is located in rear of the machine. For those of you new to the espresso machine world, the OPV controls brew pressure by venting excess pressure from the pump and returning the water back to the water reservoir. The Vibiemme has one of the heaviest OPV's I have seen. Once the outer shell is removed, you can access the adjusting screw through an opening under the water reservoir. The angle is a bit awkward but still usable. It would be easier to access if the opening was cut a half inch lower. To adjust the OPV, turn the screw counterclockwise to lower and clockwise to increase.



In the extreme rear corner of the frame is the Gicar controller box. The controller is attached to a small riser to elevate it above the floor of the machine. That will keep it away from water spills in the frame. The controller is then strapped to the socket to prevent it from coming loose. The location of the box puts it as far away from the heat of the boiler as possible. It also sits near vents in the base of the frame to provide further cooling.



The right side of the machine contains most of the wiring. The heating element inserts through the right side of the boiler. The water tap is on the right side and is mounted above the heating element. That prevents the boiler water level being accidentally lowered below the heating element. The Parker boiler-fill solenoid and its boiler-supply line is also located on the right of the boiler.



Hiding behind the pressurestat mount is the boiler over-temperature breaker. It is easier to access than it looks in the photo. Gone are the days of struggling to find a replacement for a blown thermal fuse. If the Super's breaker trips, you can easily push the red button to reset it.



The three-way power switch is massive by home espresso machine standards. It is protected from overhead spills by a stainless steel shelf. The switch itself is encased with a silicone cover. That should provide more than adequate protection from the occasional drip and spill. I have worked on commercial multi-group machines and recognize its commercial quality.



All of the electrical connections are made with fully-insulated crimp connectors. I gave all the connectors a wiggle to see if anything was loose. All the connectors were firmly locked onto the spade fittings.

The machine is well put together and very sturdy. All the fittings appear to have a hefty wrap of Teflon tape and are firmly secured. There were no signs of leaky fittings inside the machine. The wiring is a little cluttered but routed away from heat sources and secured with nylon ties. Almost every part on the machine can be easily accessed and changed within minutes.

[bdbayer]

for diminutive amounts of milk you may want to try a smaller steam tip like the single hole Barry posted about earlier.

Diminutive amounts of milk is really about all it was good for. The Expobar tip did a very fine microfoam, but it took forever. I bored out the hole with a 1/16th" drill bit. That increased the steam volume considerably but still did not give better results than the stock tip. That's $9.95 I could have put toward a better grinder, but it was worth the experience.

I have since returned to the tip provided by Vibiemme and used the angle shown in cannonfodder's video. This technique (angle of pitcher to tip) seems to work very well. I am getting much better results in a good time and can start working on some art now. I did one my daughter thought looked like Jesus, but I couldn't sell it on Ebay because it tasted soooo good.

Thanks for that video, very educational.

Barry B.

[Randy G.]

Mr. Valente then created a new company from scratch: Vibiemme, pronounced like the letters v.b.m ( the V stands for Valente , the B for Biancolini, and the M for Meroni.) These three men had been FAEMA's top management prior to state ownership.

Since I do not speak Italian I was a bit confused over the correct pronunciation. The letter from Cristiano Osnato as posted is in English. It states that the pronunciation is like the letters "V,B,M." This might cause one to presume that they would be pronounced in English. but that is evidently not the case. Since Vibiemme is an Italian company we would have to assume that the letters should be pronounced in Italian. So I had to do some research (because I do not speak Italian). To clarify how the company name is pronounced in Northern Italy (Milan, in the North, being the home city for Vibiemme):
V - Vee
B - Bee
M - Em-may
I have it as a 28Kb WAV file if anyone cares.

[bdbayer]

Just an update on the power drop situation I mentioned earlier in this thread, today I ran a single line 20amp line dedicated to the outlet powering the Domobar and Rocky). The pressure drop is now in line with what others are seeing, about .5 bar.

I did, however, have to lower the pump pressure. I went up to 12 bar with the new power line.

Barry B

[HB]

I also received a big package, the black Vibiemme Domobar Super. Below are the first of my notes from the last couple weeks:

• My wife likes the black and it works for me too. Owners and other reviews have mentioned the depth is more than most E61 espresso machines, and indeed it's noticeably deeper, similar to the Cimbali Junior. The width is typical of other E61s.
• As Dave noted, a very smart feature is the three position power switch. Off, pump on, pump and heating element on. Filling the machine for the first time was anxiety free. I bet the vendors are happy about this too, speaking as one who accidentally melted the heating element of an evaluation espresso machine a couple years back.
• The flush routine is familiar, seems a little faster to rebound than a Vetrano, which prefers a 20 to 25 second rebound. While Dave is taking the holistic approach, I broke out all the tools in the drawer. Thirty minutes with the thermofilter and Eric's adapters reveals what would have taken me 2-3 weeks to be certain about. Even so, I'm going to try not to rely on them too much, since that short circuits the "getting to know the Vibiemme" phase.
• The pressure ramp-up is very E61; the initial plateau of 4 bar, pause, then rapid increase to full pressure.
• Super has got some serious steam. It's not in the range of a La Marzocco GS3 and the steam is also a bit wetter than I'd like, but hey, it's rocket fast and well balanced. If you're into 20 ounce pitchers, steaming wonderful microfoam is a breeze.

Eric's thermometer E61 adapter fits, but you need three copper washers for it to seat properly, otherwise the hex nut will cut into the chrome (please don't ask me how I know). The thermometer's temperature tracks a degree or so behind what I would expect from a type T thermocouple.


From Eric's digital thermometer adapter documentation

[cannonfodder]

When you see a Vibiemme Domobar Super for the first time two thoughts jump to mind (or at least my mind). The first is 'Wow, that is big machine'. The second is 'that is huge grouphead'.

As I mentioned earlier, VBM is an offshoot of Faema, the designers of the E61 grouphead. VBM has carried the E61 lineage into the Domobar and Domobar Super product line. The E61 group has to be the most replicated design in espresso history. The design has evolved very little since its original inception 40+ years ago.

The group on the Domobar Super has changed little, if at all, from the original design. Two things stand out about the design. The first is how the top of the grouphead is assembled. Most manufacturers use one very large hex-head bolt which can be difficult to remove. You need a very large and relatively expensive wrench or socket to remove it. VBM has used two Allen screws to secure the top of the group. Simply remove the two screws and the entire top comes off the group.



The second standout feature of the Domobar Super is the flow restrictor in the upper thermosyphon line. This restrictor slows the flow of water through the thermosyphon line and helps to keep the grouphead at a reasonable temperature.


Image courtesy of Espressocare, please do not copy

One annoying problem with most E61 lever groups is that the 3-way valve will spray the lower portion of the machine with dirty water. Vibiemme put an extension on the bottom of the group. This extension vents the high pressure water directly through the drip tray cover. This minimizes the amount of splashing against the back of the machine and makes cleaning up much easier.

[cafeIKE]

Eric's thermometer E61 adapter fits, but you need three copper washers for it to seat properly, otherwise the hex nut will cut into the chrome (please don't ask me how I know).

For those more patient, and not into mickey mouse, simply machine .075 off the 7/16 body hex to extend the barrel length. Be sure to chamfer the hex / barrel junction for maximum clearance. Eric has an example of a flawless installation:



Cost : coupla beers for my machine shop bowling buddy.

[HB]

Thanks for the tip Ian.

[luca]

The second standout feature of the Domobar Super is the flow restrictor in the upper thermosyphon line. This restrictor slows the flow of water through the thermosyphon line and helps to keep the grouphead at a reasonable temperature.

Thermosyphon restrictors are standard features of most e61 machines, so it's probably not really all that accurate to say that it is a standout feature. It's just that people are finally starting to talk about them.

What is difficult is getting the right sized one. One of the deciding factors in buying my machine was that Dave Makin, who imports them, went to the BFC factory in Italy and tried out a bunch of different restrictors and selected a set that makes flushing almost unnecessary.

Some manufacturers put different restrictors in machines for different areas. For example, I have read that for some reason some Expobars in the USA/Canada seem not to have them at all (!) whereas here they're fine.

Cheers,

Luca

[HB]

Today is a national holiday and my loving wife generously offered to keep the kids occupied while I made a few videos. In the spirit of Dave's Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide, these are the first three shots of the day. To save you the sound of kid chaos in the backgroud, the audio tracks were removed.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5533933493630689846[/gvideo]
Lots of nutty flavors from Intelligentsia Kid O's Organic Espresso, but the finish was a little bitter and the roast notes higher than I prefer for straight espresso (however it would undoubtedly make an excellent macchiato). Lately I've been playing with downdosing to improve the nuance of a blend; below is my second attempt with less coffee and a finer grind. The dose is 15.5 grams, which is below the rim for Faema-style baskets. To downdose the grounds, I curved my finger downward into the basket while redistributing, a modified Stockfleth's Move of sorts. It pours a little faster than the previous extraction:

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6077981095368574216[/gvideo]
The nutty flavors remained and the finish was much, much smoother. The roast notes also subsided; a very enjoyable espresso. To finish the series, I coarsened the grind ever so slightly and kept the dosage the same.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4965410804652664560[/gvideo]
The taste profile didn't change noticeably, but the body decreased, in part because of the coarser grind, in part because I let the extraction run a couple seconds too long. The second espresso of the series was the best.

[cannonfodder]

Thermosyphon restrictors are standard features of most e61 machines, so it's probably not really all that accurate to say that it is a standout feature. It's just that people are finally starting to talk about them.

What is difficult is getting the right sized one. One of the deciding factors in buying my machine was that Dave Makin, who imports them, went to the BFC factory in Italy and tried out a bunch of different restrictors and selected a set that makes flushing almost unnecessary.

Some manufacturers put different restrictors in machines for different areas. For example, I have read that for some reason some Expobars in the USA/Canada seem not to have them at all (!) whereas here they're fine.

Cheers,

Luca

Let me elaborate. In the United States, every E61 machine I have used does not have a flow restrictor. The manufacturers do not put them in US bound E61's. My understanding is that they are commonplace on machines bound for other markets. I don't know why that is. That is why I point it out as a significant feature.

If someone can list any other US market E61's with factory installed thermosyphon flow restrictors, please do so. I know the Elektra, Isomac, Faema and Expobar do not have them installed for the US market.

[cannonfodder]

I have been pulling a lot of shots on the Domobar Super. After all, that is the measure of a good espresso machine. All the steaming power in the world is worthless if the shots are not up to par.

The Super has the typical E61 group, vibe pump, and brew pressure ramp. A quick build to around 4 bars of pressure with a two or three second dwell, it then ramps up to full brew pressure. I have settled on a brew pressure just over 9 bar with the onboard gauge. I believe my gauge is reading high. The onboard brew pressure gauge reads 9.6 bar, but a portafilter mounted reads 130psi, which is 8.9 bar. Neither gauge is terribly accurate, but my taste buds tell me I am right at 9 bar.

I have played with the dosing, spanning from 14 to 18 grams. At the lower doses I had some difficulty with channeling. That is not to say I could not get a good shot at a low dose, I was just having some difficulties. The shots were OK at the higher end of the spectrum, but nothing that made the machine stand out. There was lots of body in the cup, but the more delicate flavors were absent. Beyond 18 grams, the puck scraped the shower screen. In the end, I have settled on a 16 gram dose with most coffees.

Espressos from the Super are typical to slightly better than other E61 machines I've tried. It produces a thick and crema laden shot (provided your beans and grinder are up to the task). The deep flavors (i.e. chocolate/coco/leather) are abundant in the cup. The mid tones (i.e. nut and spice) are the next most accentuated flavors with the lighter, more delicate notes coming across a little more muted. The cup is more of a melange, all the flavors are there but not as defined as the shots from the Elektra A3. Some may say that is an unfair comparison given the vast differences between the two machines. When comparing the general cup qualities of a more in class machine (Isomac Millennium), I find that the Super produces a slightly more rounded cup.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7439441519024429408[/gvideo]

While having a larger than normal boiler, the Domobar Super still benefits from a flush and rebound method of temperature management rather than the flush and go technique I use for the Elektra A3. Below is a video of a flush and double shot pull after the machine has been sitting idle for over one hour. I am using one of Eric's grouphead mounted thermocouples. The thermocouple requires a few seconds to stabilize once the shot is started.

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5494863005375402126[/gvideo]

When I say I have pulled a bunch of shots today testing and tasting, I mean I have pulled a BUNCH of shots.



Sorry about the shaky video, there will be more to come, and yes, I know thermosyphon is misspelled in one of the videos.

[jesawdy]

If someone can list any other US market E61's with factory installed thermosyphon flow restrictors, please do so. I know the Elektra, Isomac, Faema and Expobar do not have them installed for the US market.

I can neither conform nor deny that statement, but if that's true, the question should be why do they not install a restrictor for the US market?

My bumper knockbox looks about the same most of the time, but mostly 'cause I'm lazy (thanks Paul Pratt, slacker home-baristas thank you!).

[cafeIKE]

I have settled on a brew pressure just over 9 bar with the onboard gauge. I believe my gauge is reading high. The onboard brew pressure gauge reads 9.6 bar, but a portafilter mounted reads 130psi, which is 8.9 bar. Neither gauge is terribly accurate, but my taste buds tell me I am right at 9 bar.

As posted in the Digital Pressure Adapter, I arrived at almost identical numbers.

I have played with the dosing, spanning from 14 to 18 grams. At the lower doses I had some difficulty with channeling. That is not to say I could not get a good shot at a low dose, I was just having some difficulties. The shots were OK at the higher end of the spectrum, but nothing that made the machine stand out. There was lots of body in the cup, but the more delicate flavors were absent. Beyond 18 grams, the puck scraped the shower screen. In the end, I have settled on a 16 gram dose with most coffees.

I use a shallower 12g double basket and around 14.5g. I also changed the shower screen. It's flatter, shorter and does not have a 'step' at the edge relative to the stock. Used with a custom 58.25mm Reg Barber American Curve and a slight down dose, pulling great shots is a doddle.

From Espresso Resource.

Thanks for all your work on a great review.

[HB]

Lino and I have been talking about an E61 article for ages. No real progress to report, but it will get done someday. On a related note, Ian Stewart volunteered to help with the photography. Below are a few teasers he recently finished featuring the Vibiemme's E61 grouphead:







Copyright Ian Stewart (woodchuck), please do not copy