Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano - Page 2

[hed1117]

"Doesn't really have anything to do with the Vetrano though..."

As a newbie who has just taken the plunge - I mean leap - from a Gaggia Carezza to my just-arrived Vetrano, I am anxious to read the initial appraisal of those more knowledgable than I - preferably in terms that I can somewhat understand w/o a degree in astro-coffee-physics .

But that's just me.

[miKe mcKoffee]

As a newbie who has just taken the plunge - I mean leap - from a Gaggia Carezza to my just-arrived Vetrano, I am anxious to read the initial appraisal of those more knowledgable than I - preferably in terms that I can somewhat understand w/o a degree in astro-coffee-physics .

But that's just me.

If you were referring to my shot temp series post, that's ok, not that many months ago I wouldn't haven't understood what I was saying either! Hang around here awhile, HB can be a quite educational as well as confusing site.

[skyryders90]

Of interest might be the heater would always be kicked on end of wiggle which was start of 1min PF simulated fill timer. Heater would kick back on once during the 1min between 34 or 24 sec left depending on the previous shot temp pulled. (for about 5sec) The 6 200F shots I noticed it consistently kicked back on right at 24 or 25sec left of the countdown off at 20sec left. It was always just about ready to kick back on again per the gauge when the 1min elapsed but never did until starting the flush and go. Might be even more consistent hitting desired shot temp if waiting for heater to kick back on the second time and immediately starting flush and go at that point, something I'll likely play with since when pulling actual shots I'm not using a timer between shots! (but have timed what it actually takes me a couple times the past few days) Would slow me down a bit when pulling a series of shots but if it proves to be more shot temp accurate, so be it!

Mike -

Did you insulate your Bricc's boiler? Mine is insulated, and I have a thermofilter showing up in the next week or so. Would be an interesting comparison to see uninsulated Bricc v. insulated Bricc v. insulated Vetrano.

[Balthazar_B]

Wasn't able to spend as much time as I wanted on it yesterday, but I'm still trying to dial in the best grind on some beans I'm using (Caffe Fresco Organic PNG), but also having issues with distribution/tamping. My tamper seems to be at least 1mm smaller in diameter than the basket I'm using -- will need to take a caliper gauge to quantify the dimensions -- and getting channeling every third shot or so. So it's making things slower than I'd like. I did turn out a couple of very nice shots, so I'm getting closer, but will need to get the dist/tamping thing worked out before I can hope for enough consistency to know if the grind setting is right on.

BTW, naked Rancilio portafilter/basket from Chris Coffee, Espro 58mm flat tamper, Mazzer Mini-E doserless grinder. I have a convex tamper arriving in a few days...maybe that'll help. Otherwise I may need to rethink the basket/tamper combo.

I will say that flushing is easy on this machine -- gotta love that E61 head -- and the rotary pump seems powerful and is very quiet (compared to every vibratory pump I've used/heard). The no-burn fully-articulated steam wand has lots of oomph, but perfecting microfoam operations on it will wait until my primary objective -- consistently good/great shots -- is achieved. After I get the PNG nailed, I want to try some Ambrosia Blend and Black Cat to learn what subtle grinding/temp changes are called for.

[malachi]

I would be very cautious about insulating the boiler.
We've talked about this in the past.

[skyryders90]

I would be very cautious about insulating the boiler.
We've talked about this in the past.

LOL - the way you put that sounds awfully dramatic.

I've still not seen anything that really shows there is any impact (positive OR negative) to results in the cup based on boiler insulation, only that the machine consumes a little less energy with the consequence of a little more overshoot with the boiler pressure. Given the inherently unexact and pseudo-zen nature of temperature control on a HX machine, I don't really see what the impact is that demands a "very cautious" approach.

I would certainly agree that a temperature surfing methodology developed when a machine was uninsulated would have to be revised after the machine was insulated - but why isn't this just an issue of revising the required surfing technique?

[miKe mcKoffee]

I would be very cautious about insulating the boiler.
We've talked about this in the past.

I too am confused. Your review said:

And, of course, life would get a lot easier if the machine (or at least the boiler) were insulated.

I searched the forum and couldn't find any gotchas. Though I haven't insulated my boiler yet, figure I'll wait until the Monster is done and decide what mods to do all at once.

[hed1117]

I had hoped that the Vetrano, combining many of the components of the Andreja Premium PLUS the desirable rotary pump, would be considered at least as good ie quality and value, as the Andreja.

So far the comments I've read - granted they have all been speculative and/or literally "first look", as the first 30 machines only shipped this past week - have risen only to the sober heights of "it's got to be quieter than my Silvia"...

Any new insights?

[lennoncs]

I had hoped that the Vetrano, combining many of the components of the Andreja Premium PLUS the desirable rotary pump, would be considered at least as good ie quality and value, as the Andreja.

So far the comments I've read - granted they have all been speculative and/or literally "first look", as the first 30 machines only shipped this past week - have risen only to the sober heights of "it's got to be quieter than my Silvia"...

Any new insights?

I have an insight....Let Dan do the review(to completion) and let people get the machine in their hands before speculating on performance.

Sean

[hed1117]

"I have an insight....Let Dan do the review(to completion) and let people get the machine in their hands before speculating on performance."

Point taken.

I will wait patiently ...

[HB]

I had hoped that the Vetrano, combining many of the components of the Andreja Premium PLUS the desirable rotary pump, would be considered at least as good ie quality and value, as the Andreja.

It's the holidays, thirty or so owners recently received a new machine, and I appreciate they would like a quick "first look." Let's get that out of the way...

First of all, your assumption seems reasonable since the two machines have the same group and pretty much the same internals. According to Chris Nachtrieb, who visited the factory, they grab the same grouphead and boiler assembly for whatever machine they're making (Andreja Premium, Anita, or Vetrano). Other companies have the same strategy of changing the casing and componentry to appeal to different tastes in style or price points (e.g., the Isomac Rituale, Millennium, and Tea are internally identical). So far I've found nothing to suggest the Vetrano performs notably different than what I documented in the Andreja Premium writeup. (To be honest, rather than focusing on the Vetrano writeup per se, I have been spending more time comparing the "water dance" method I advocated in How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs to the flush-n-go technique described in Chris Tacy's writeups in terms of ease and in-cup results. It's a good article, but I think HX Love is overdue for an update).

Now a few comments about the rest of this review, and reviews in general on HB.

Each reviewer on HB approaches their evaluations differently. Abe and Chris work in bursts over a weekend, burning through pounds of coffee each day. My personal commitments demand that I spread the work over a longer period in small chunks. Our presentation styles differ too, but that's fine with me as long as the writeups are thorough and well reasoned.

Despite the temptation to leverage my prior work, I've started this review anew. Afterall, over a year has gone by and the manufacturer may have made changes, my diagnostic equipment has changed, and my techniques have changed too - hopefully for the better. The first part of that evaluation is determining the "morning after" score, i.e., how easy is it to operate (without the aid of special measurement tools). Depending on my schedule, this phase lasts from one to three weeks. It was over a month before I broke out the Fluke for the Elektra A3 review. Thermofilters and the like are great diagnostic tools for refining technique, but otherwise I prefer to prolong the discovery mode. Besides, I think that it's "cheating" to use fancy tools for initial diagnostics since few home baristas will have them.

I can't add specifics to the discussion about the performance of the Vetrano versus the Bricoletta. However, I can say that after having reviewed a half-dozen or more machines, you have to adapt your technique slightly for each. The E61 semi-commercial machines as a group behave similarly, but there are differences in operation. For example, the Expobar Lever runs very hot and demands a huge flush at the same pressurestat setting compared to an Isomac Rituale. The Giotto Premium is not far behind the Expobar in this regard. This comes to a point that I return to regularly: It's the Barista, Stupid.

And on that note, the next installment will return to what's really important - the cup.

[HB]

It's been just over a week with the Vetrano and I've worked through about 3-1/2 pounds of coffee:

• Intelligentsia Black Cat
• Intelligentsia Kid O's Organic
• Counter Culture Coffee Toscano

The first and the last blends have been my test favorites for a long time; Kid O's is a recent addition to my regular rotation and one that I really like for straight espresso. Intelligentsia describes Black Cat as "exceedingly heavy in body with dominant notes of chocolate, caramel, and dried fruit, this blend is complex and powerful with a lingering sweet finish." It is very popular and rightfully so, but lately I lean towards more acidic, less intense espressos, especially when sampling lots of back-to-back shots.

Kid O's Organic produces a dreamy, lush crema and nutty toasted almond flavors; it has "snap" on the palate and milder aftertaste than Black Cat. If you give it a try, pay attention to the flavors as it cools; if pulled just right, it finishes with subtle florals and cinnamon sweetness. It stands up well in a standard size cappuccino. Technical notes: Flush-n-go for six seconds past end of water dance, estimated temperature of 200F; LM double basket, estimated weight of 17.5 grams; extraction time was a long 28 seconds; estimated volume of 1.75 ounces (touching the bottom of the interior lettering of an Illy cup).

Under the influence of Geoff at Pheasant Creek Coffee, I'm pulling Toscano tighter nowadays. Extreme ristrettos transform this blend into a chocolate bomb factory and edges up the roast flavors. I recommend the shorter volumes for macchiatos, but those desiring a gentler flavor profile may prefer a more traditionally proportioned 1.75 ounce extraction. Technical notes: Experimenting with rebound method, longer flush of about two ounces past end of water dance, 30 second rebound; extraction time with Faema basket 25 seconds; estimated volume 1.25 ounces; estimated weight 18.5 grams.

Reminder: Using the Vetrano after many months with commercial machines like the Cimbali Junior and Elektra A3, or the temperature-controlled dual boiler Expobar Bretus, I'm reminded how these semi-commercial machines demand more attention to temperature management. You might think from reading the how-to's in a Buyer's Guide that it's plug-n-play easy, but step-by-step instructions are only a starting point. Following my own instructions from the Andreja Premium review, I was getting good results from the get-go, however it was several additional days before things really started to click. These observations are gentle reminders to be patient and take your time.

On a related note, yesterday we piled into the mini-van to visit Santa at the mall. Unfortunately, the line was long and our youngest was getting impatient, so we decided instead to tour a few stores before packing it in for the day. My wife can't avoid the magnetic pull of Williams-Sonoma and the kids like the free samples (chocolate filled candy canes and ginger bread). Among the samples were three espresso machines serving Illy pods and Illy whole bean. I felt a certain obligation to check out the Breville and two super-automatics. The super-autos sold for an eye-popping $2400 and $3200. How to put it delicately... you are giving up a lot in shot quality for convenience. Those espressos were not worthy of this home barista's driptray.

Moral of the story: If you love good espresso, or wish to experience exceptional espresso, the extra effort is worth it.

PS: Next weekend is the return of Caffe Fresco's Ambrosia Espresso Blend, and depending on Miguel's roasting schedule, HB newcomer Espresso Classico from Paradise Roasters.

[quar]

[*]Allow about two minutes of recovery time between shots. The temperature will trend downward over the course of several extractions if you go faster. Whether you flush or not after two minutes of idle time depends on the desired brew temperature and your taste. On a long series of shots, I'll flush maybe a second or two if the machine has idled longer than two minutes.

[*]Remember NOT to flush the group to rinse off grounds in between a series of extractions. The extraction temperatures will trend downward since the HX is losing recovery time and the grouphead is cooled by excessive/premature flushing. The rule is simple: If you're session is over, do the wiggle rinse and water backflush. If you plan another espresso, use the cooling flush to rinse down any grinds from the previous extraction (I noted this same consequence with the A3, but it's more pronounced with the smaller HX of the Vetrano).

Dan,

How long do you find it takes for the machine to reach the point in which there is pronounced overheating to where a full flush is required? It seems like my Anita takes several minutes to where I can hear the sound of boiling water exiting the grouphead. Idling for maybe 5 minutes or so gives me a second or two of the water dance. It's been bothering me as I hear stories of other HX machines needing a significant flush after only a minute or two. Your comment that a two min rest and the barest of flushes sounds like what I am seeing.


Mike

[miKe mcKoffee]

Dan,

How long do you find it takes for the machine to reach the point in which there is pronounced overheating to where a full flush is required? It seems like my Anita takes several minutes to where I can hear the sound of boiling water exiting the grouphead. Idling for maybe 5 minutes or so gives me a second or two of the water dance. It's been bothering me as I hear stories of other HX machines needing a significant flush after only a minute or two. Your comment that a two min rest and the barest of flushes sounds like what I am seeing.


Mike

I suspect some machines needing longer flush after only a minute between shots is due to higher heater power and or larger boiler, which makes sense. Also higher boiler pressure/temp would HX recover faster so that's a factor too.

[HB]

It's been bothering me as I hear stories of other HX machines needing a significant flush after only a minute or two.

It varies considerably from machine to machine. Even for commercial machines, the vigor and duration of the cooling flush diminishes after a few pulls until the machine has idled for five minutes or more (and for the Cimbali Junior, it's more like 10 minutes before a full-tilt flush is needed). If you're serving a large crowd and are concerned about recovery time, raising the pressurestat setting and increasing the boiler's water level will reduce it. The only drawback I can think of reducing the recovery time is your "targetting window" of correct brew temperature will narrow. I run my own machine at the lowest setting for acceptable steaming and recovery time (usually 0.9 bar for light service, 1.1 bar for heavy service).

Updated: See The $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine for how to determine the right pressurestat setting for your heavy service pace. Thanks Jim!

Also higher boiler pressure/temp would HX recover faster so that's a factor too.

Plus the boiler water level, boiler orientation, heat exchanger volume, heat exchanger injector length, group mass ('thermal memory'), and delivery tube length. There's probably other factors that we haven't named. Obviously the barista must adapt their routine to the particulars of the machine.

[HB]

A few months after the Andreja Premium review was out, a buyer contacted me lamenting its steaming ability. "Gallons of milk and I'm getting nothing but dishsoap bubbles. My trusty Silvia produces velvety microfoam with the stock tip. C'mon Dan, you said:

Some owners actually prefer a more modest steaming pace since it gives them additional time to "finesse" the development of microfoam. My personal preference is fast and rocking frothing, which the [Andreja Premium and Giotto Premium] delivered, nearing the stretching and texturing ability of a commercial machine. Their stock tips are also good choices, allowing for both fine microfoam and thicker, airier microfoam by adjusting the time and depth of the stretching phase.

"It's been frustrating for me. I don't understand how could you rate the Andreja Premium's steaming 9 out of 10!?!"

I offered some hints (extra cold milk, pitcher in the freezer, practice controlling the direction of the rotation with water, etc.) and encouraged him to push on. A few weeks later I received the expected "Eureka!" e-mail from him. Several times since then I've had the same experience as new evaluation equipment arrived, reminding me that one must adapt to each machine, and in some cases, unlearn previously acquired skills. I bet if I asked him about Silvia's steaming today, he'd say, "It's excellent, but a little wet compared to my new machine."

The Vetrano has the same "no burn" steam arm and water tap. In addition to the comfort consideration (and not worrying about grab tabs), the rounded two-hole tip cleans easily because the milk doesn't bake on. I also like the direction, velocity, and volume of this setup; it's become a popular choice for top-end semi-commercial units (Andreja Premium, Vetrano, Giotto Premium, and I understand the new Expobar Brewtus II). However, some upgraders like the gentleman mentioned above may initially prefer a "cheater tip" that reduces the volume and increases the velocity. Practically every vendor has an "exclusive" low-volume tip that slows heating and increases velocity, which makes it much easier to stretch and texture milk at a modest pace, especially for single servings.

Unfortunately the no burn steam arm uses a relatively unusual 8mm female thread instead of the more common 10mm male. After hearing from enough customers wanting to experiment with alternative tips, Chris sourced an adapter:


Converts the existing female 8mm steam arm to a 10mm male.

(Turns out this adapter was part of the water tap assembly for fitting the screen head). I'll try it out later in this review with several of the popular low-volume tips (e.g., "new" two-hole tip from Chris' Coffee, Gold Pro 2 from 1st-line, two-hole stainless steel angled tip from EPNW) and report back.

[another_jim]

However, some upgraders like the gentleman mentioned above may initially prefer a "cheater tip" that reduces the volume and increases the velocity.

The stock tip that came with the Isomac and some other of the 1.2 liter E61s was terrible because it was too big for the boiler. The steam pressure dropped to 0.6 to 0.7 bar and stayed there. With these cheater tips, the machines recover very, very slowly when the heat comes on at the bottom of the normal pstat range. Since the boiler never gets out of range, the shots made while steaming aren't messed up either.

The 1.8 liter plus boilers obviously can put out more steam; but the same proviso applies -- a properly sized tip is one that allows the boiler/heater combo to stay *just* within the normal pstat range. If the boiler recovers quickly while steaming, the tip is undersized. If the pressure drops out of sight, it's oversized.

[miKe mcKoffee]

The stock tip that came with the Isomac and some other of the 1.2 liter E61s was terrible because it was too big for the boiler. The steam pressure dropped to 0.6 to 0.7 bar and stayed there. With these cheater tips, the machines recover very, very slowly when the heat comes on at the bottom of the normal pstat range. Since the boiler never gets out of range, the shots made while steaming aren't messed up either.

The 1.8 liter plus boilers obviously can put out more steam; but the same proviso applies -- a properly sized tip is one that allows the boiler/heater combo to stay *just* within the normal pstat range. If the boiler recovers quickly while steaming, the tip is undersized. If the pressure drops out of sight, it's oversized.

I saw that with the second tip Chris shipped me with the Bric' and it's 1.5L 1900w. It's a four hole, and each of the four holes is larger than the holes on the two hole tip. OTOH, the what I believe is the stock Bric' two hole tip the boiler climbs while steaming and seems undersized and slow steaming. I have the Gold Pro 2 hole Malachi suggested coming.

[another_jim]

I saw that with the second tip Chris shipped me with the Bric' and it's 1.5L 1900w. It's a four hole, and each of the four holes is larger than the holes on the two hole tip. OTOH, the what I believe is the stock Bric' two hole tip the boiler climbs while steaming and seems undersized and slow steaming. I have the Gold Pro 2 hole Malachi suggested coming.

Seems you got one that's too small and one that's too large; maybe we should call you goldilocks

[Teme]

(Turns out this adapter was part of the water tap assembly for fitting the screen head). I'll try it out later in this review with several of the popular low-volume tips (e.g., "new" two-hole tip from Chris' Coffee, Gold Pro 2 from 1st-line, two-hole stainless steel angled tip from EPNW) and report back.

Dan,

I'm very interested to hear of your findings. I don't want to try and steal any of your thunder, but I have the adaptor for my Andreja and I've tried the "new" 2-hole from Chris as well as the EPNW 2-hole tip (and a GoldPro is on its way). The biggest downside these have compared to the stock tip is that the alternative tips run much hotter and milk really does burn onto them much more so than with the stock tip - i.e. you lose one of the key benefits of the no-burn wand. This is especially inconvenient with the "new" 2-hole since the ridges on the sides make it more difficult to keep clean. As for results, I can manage microfoam with all of them and found the EPNW noticeably slower than the stock tip - good if you only want to steam a very small amount of milk.

Br,
Teme