Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano - Page 5

[whallmark]

Hello,

I purchased one of the first 30 machines. I received it the first week of December. I have been thoroughly enjoying it while my espressos and caps have been steadily improving. The setup of the machine was very easy. I set mine up near the fridge where my old Pavoni used to reside. I just tapped into the fridge water supply. I am too far from the sink so I just use the drip tray without the drain.
With the Italian roast I get from a local shop, I have good results when I use about an 11 second flush after the water dance stops and then pull the shot 25-35 seconds later. However, I am having trouble figuring out how much to flush when I am pulling a second shot. When the machine is hot, the water dance lasts about 11-12 seconds. When I have used the 11 second flush when there is a shorter water dance the shot is sour. Any suggestions on timing?

Wes

[HB]

When the machine is hot, the water dance lasts about 11-12 seconds. When I have used the 11 second flush when there is a shorter water dance the shot is sour. Any suggestions on timing?

Depends on how soon after the last extraction finished and your pressurestat setting. Jim's $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine describes the HX dynamics in "party mode." The original evaluation Vetrano that I tested has been replaced by one from the next shipment, but as I recall, it needed about 1m30s of recovery time between shots (no flush, 1.1 bar). The newer one seems to recover slightly faster, though that could be my imagination (first use was this morning; I'll begin reporting again as my "real" job allows).

If you're pulling slower than flat out (~1m30s) but faster than allowing it to return to near idle (~5 minutes), the flush is around an ounce or two. My preference is to choose one or the other -- party mode or slow mode -- not bounce back-and-forth between them. Guessing at the proper in-between flush amount can lead to off temperatures unless you're really Zen with the machine.

PS: Abe's Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine - A Workable Solution provides flush charts for any idle interval that could be adapted to your espresso machine. And Bob offers his own advice specific to the Andreja Premium later in the same thread:

1. If the machine has been idle for a while, flush 6 oz.
2. After three minutes, flush 2 oz.
3. Wait 40 seconds and pull the shot.

That's it!

Me, I prefer the Zen approach.

[HB]

Apologies for the long delay, my daytime job has been keeping me busy, including late nights this week. The Vetrano from the second batch arrived last week and we've been getting reacquainted. The changes are subtle:

• Nice custom dual gauge with sensible recommended pressure ranges for the boiler and pump (pictured earlier)
• Drip tray drains from the bottom (good!) and easily slides out, whether plumbed or not (very good!); drains effectively.
• Water inlet is now on the bottom, near the back right corner.
• To accomodate the inlet tubing's 90 degree bend, the legs are a little taller. The extra clearance allows for better wiping the countertop around the machine (the Vetrano is located next to two grinders, all in a mere 30" width; lots of coffee grounds)

As I mentioned earlier, the Vetrano is in most practical ways the same machine as the Andreja Premium, which I evaluated back in October 2004, so there hasn't been any surprises. The shell is a simple U-shaped wraparound like the Anita and of course the Vetrano has a whisper-quiet rotary pump (rotary pumps are much quieter than vibratory pumps, but the Vetrano is very quiet as rotary pump espresso machines go). To keep things interesting during an evaluation, I like to investigate topics related to the writeup, but not motivated by the particular machine per se. That's what prompted the thread Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor. The comparison of the pressure profiles for a vibratory and rotary pump are reproduced below:


Anita (vibratory) and Vetrano (rotary)

At the same time I was trying out the Weiss Distribution, discussed in Convex tamper and NSEW technique. Pros may eschew this technique, but John Weiss' (RapidCoffee) and my own experience support the assertion that the extra stir action does enhance the evenness of an extraction, especially for grinders that tend to clump. I bet newbies who are still working on their distribution technique will also see better results with this "cheat."


Tracing circles in search of better distribution (link)

While the difference in extraction quality with or without the Weiss Distribution may be minor with a forgiving E61, the difference is likely more stark for demanding machines, which reminds me of Ken Fox's point in the conclusion of The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots:

If you have a rotary pump driven machine and it does not preinfuse the grounds, the modification I have done is fairly easy and cheap to do. The result of doing this modification should be greater tolerance to grind settings, easier switching between coffees, with less sink shots resulting. This is to say that with preinfusion added a non-preinfusing rotary machine begins to more and more resemble the way that a vibe pump driven machine operates. For ease of operation and less hassle, I'd suggest just installing the delay timer in your non-preinfusing rotary machine, without a need for an on-off switch.

His comment prompted me to work the last couple days trying to answer the question: Is a rotary E61 less forgiving than its vibratory pump equipped cousin? No doubt the difference, if it exists, is very small. I strived for hyper-even extractions in the attempt to demonstrate to myself that the difference was either noteworthy or negligible. After days of the most even pours I've ever managed, I'm still undecided. Perhaps this is a good group test for EspressoFest (Anita / vibe versus Vetrano / rotary), most even extraction wins?

On the brew temperature front, I've been refining the flush particulars documented in the Andreja Premium writeup. With a small stack of data and lots of water dance observation, it's humbling that Bob Yellin's three-step "keep it simple, stupid" instructions mentioned in my prior post are tough to beat. The first shot tends to run hot and a few fake cycles seems to help. Of course Chris Tacy's "garbage shot" approach works too, however I cringe when intentionally throwing sink shots only to warm up the group. I suppose one could rationalize the first tossed shot as a grinder adjustment - and lately I've been tossing a lot out as part of the Macap writeup - but the coffee miser in me winces every time.

A page or two back, Teme mentioned using "cheater" tips on the Andreja Premium, which shares the same steam wands as the Vetrano. The adapter below allows one to use the common 10mm female steam tips:



Despite the problems reported in New Andreja owner with microfoam problem, my preference is still the stock setup. Trying several low-volume tips, I found them indeed easier, but the microfoam was invariably airer. The dreaded "cottonball" formed in the milk if I didn't swirl and thunk constantly, which was unnecessary for the chromy milk surface I frothed with the stock tip. That said, an adapter and low-volume steam tip are small outlays, and it's nice to have the option. New owners may wish to give them a try, though I would be surprised if the pair didn't become semi-permanent drawer residents in a couple months' time.

If you would like hands-on time with the Vetrano as well as some other machines from past reviews, plan to attend EspressoFest 2006. In addition to Counter Culture Coffee's training equipment (La Marzocco 3-group Linea, Astoria Gloria), Bob Barraza has graciously agreed to loan us his Elektra A3. It hasn't arrived yet, but I have it on good authority that Versalab will loan us their famed M3 grinder. HB's "special ops" Team headed by Lino Verna and Sean Lennon also promise a few surprises (shhhh-h! The code word is Flux Capacitor... I would say more, but then they would be obligated to kill me ).

[HB]

Follow-on discussion split to The Weiss Distribution Technique is NOT a 'cheat'! and Test videos of espresso extractions...

[HB]

With the SCAA conference and EspressoFest 2006 becoming a fading memory, it's time to put this Bench writeup into the history books too. Originally I secretly planned on staging a side-by-side Anita (vibe pump) versus Vetrano (rotary pump) as part of this writeup, but Jim and Ken's The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots treatment of the topic already shamed anything I could attempt. Instead my interests turned to refining the Guide's espresso performance instructions based on the data from Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter.


Temperature within the valve chamber exit (blue) versus thermofilter (red) - great for predicting the correct flush

The article How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs documents the water dance / rebound technique for HX temperature management, which delivers reproducible brew temperatures within ~1.5F. The added feedback from the E61 adapter greatly simplifies the technique and improves the reproducibility by another notch, albeit a small one for the HX Love reader who's put in a few week's practice. I bet it won't be long before pre-packaged setups are commonly sold by high-end home espresso vendors, giving them ammunition in the HX versus dedicated brew boiler debates.

High tech toys aside, my final thoughts on the Vetrano are much the same as the Andreja Premium with which it shares many components: It's solidly built, easy to use, and makes mighty fine espressos. The added bonus over the Andreja Premium, of course, is the whisper-quiet rotary pump and driptray that converts to plumbed-in with minimum hassle. Chris' Coffee Service has Quickmill's ear and they've addressed the nigglers that would irritate increasingly discriminating home baristas (some of that feedback originated from this report, but a lot of it came from the owner, Chris Nachtrieb, and early buyers of the first production run).

Starting tomorrow I'll work on the Vetrano writeup based on some of the content from the Andreja Premium article, taking into account the two machines' differences as well as improvements in my testing equipment. If there are other topics you would like to see addressed in the Buyer's Guide, please let me know.

[espressoquest]

A Vetrano question for you, Dan or Vetrano/Andreja/Anita owners in general. What is your steady-state boiler pressure when you are steaming? Mine hovers around .6 bar with the steam full on. How does this compare to other machines in this class?

I'm having a bit of a problem getting consistant microfoam right now, but I'm pretty sure that it is an operator problem...I mean, the Vetrano steams like crazy compared to the old Saeco I previously had with it's tiny little boiler.

Ok - more than one question - I am wondering how having a higher pressurestat setting will improve your steaming performance. As I understand it, the steaming boiler pressure is determined by the relationship between element output and steam tip size. As long as the element is on, doesn't the boiler pressure end up the same while steaming, even if it starts at a higher value (IE at 1.3 instead of 1.1 bar)? Or, does the hotter water in the boiler at higher Pstat settings give additional steam power at the same steaming boiler pressure - in my case, 0.6 bar? I have brought the Pstat settings down a bit from the factory range of 1.2-1.4 bar, to 1.05-1.25 - and my steady state steam pressure doesn't seem to have changed much at all.

Thanks

Doug

[HB]

What is your steady-state boiler pressure when you are steaming? Mine hovers around .6 bar with the steam full on. How does this compare to other machines in this class?

That sounds about right, though you would already be done steaming for single and reasonable double volumes before it reached that point (6-9 ounces). Bob offered good advice in New Andreja owner with microfoam that applies to the Vetrano.

I am wondering how having a higher pressurestat setting will improve your steaming performance... does the hotter water in the boiler at higher Pstat settings give additional steam power at the same steaming boiler pressure - in my case, 0.6 bar?

No, the steady state pressure will be the same since it's gated by the wattage of the heating element.

I'm not an audiophile, though I think there's a good analogy: Turning up the stereo's volume control increases your perception of the bass notes to a degree, but adding additional woofers increases the "power" of the bass. The same is true for steaming: Increasing the steam pressure adds initial "ommph" to the first few seconds, but it's not the same as having a bigger boiler from which to draw reserve energy. The boiler size and wattage of the semi-commercial machines like the Andreja / Vetrano are well balanced. Most new owners think they have too much steaming capacity.

It's all relative I suppose. I admit liking the big boiler machines, even if they're major overkill (like the teenager behind me in traffic with enough bass to shake my car's windows!).

[HB]

The Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano is online. Comments, corrections and follow-up questions to the article are welcome in Article Feedback.

I would like to thank Steve Robinson for his valuable contributions to the taste evaluations. John Weiss' peer review comments were helpful and succinct. Finally, special thanks are due Sean Lennon for his expert knowledge and loan of the "Wizard's Kit", which made studies like those documented in Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor possible.

[olypdd]

I finally decided to register on this site after enjoying all the informative posts and discussions. Dan Kehn's eval of the Vetrano was of great interest to me as I had the not so dreaded upgrade-itus taking hold in recent months. I have both an Elektra lever and an Isomac Venus. The Venus gets the daily use and worked well after I upgraded the steam stat and adjusted the opv to brew at 9.5 bar. But I hate the water tank thing. I found myself forgetting to check it and running it dry on a shot. I used it for 3+ years and may sell the thing. It's a great starter machine, one of the best in my opinion.

So back to Dan's first eval of the Vetrano. I recently purchased a Vetrano from Chris Coffee, who I have done business with previously, and heartily recommend him because of his providing premium customer service. The machine I purchased is apparently the one Dan first evaluated and which he depicts in his discussion of the first run Vetrano eval (according to Mary at Chris Coffee) I plumbed it in and it primed right up. I have pulled some great shots right off the bat. I included the water filter, and plan to add the pressure regulator, even though it doesn't seem to be an issue except a minor movement in the gauge with water usage around the house. ( I used to be a plumber and love the john guest stuff ) I noticed that Chris threw in the drain connection and hose. Not sure I will use it but I might try it some time.

I thought that if Dan played with it, it's probably been tweaked to where it should be and it seems to be performing in the sweet spots I would have set it to.

Did I mention the rotary pump? Do I need to? The dang thing is mighty stealthy and my wife didn't even know I had pulled a shot for her latte the first time I made her one.

It's funny, but some of the same antics HX owners have to engage in the purged excessively heated brew water, I was doing with my Venus. It's an entirely different machine, and a different "thing" going on, as I was purging until the heating element kicked on and brewed a few seconds after it kicked off. So the HX regimen seems to come very naturally to me. I am very interested in the discussions about the probe and adaptor Eric has come up with, and I think this might revolutionize the HX experience to the extent that shot consistency and shot profiles are possible (different brew temps for different tastes/coffee blends).

I noticed that when I made my own naked portafilter (that's right, I used a dang hack saw and file by hand and I said I used to be a plumber), that there was some channeling with the Venus. With the Vetrano, and thanks apparently to pre-infusion, I have observed extremely even extraction.

The steaming performance of the Vetrano is well.....stellar! The first time I steamed, it was not pretty. I was surprised because I am pretty good at this. The second time and since, I have finessed the milk beautifully with the Vetrano's stock rounded two hole tip. (which I like alot). It steams to temp alot faster than the Venus, but the Elektra...hmm, it's pretty fast too.

Anyway, when Mary told me the differences between the new Vetranos and the one I purchased, I couldn't find any reason not to go for the discounted machine. Especially since its equipped with the Sirai stat. I also don't mind the original gauge, as I am pretty good at reading the original one depicted in Dan's post. (I like the new one too)

I plan to use a timer, but after reading all the techy talk on surge suppressors, I can't see why I should bother with one. By the way, I left my Venus on all the time and never had a problem. I have been leaving the Vetrano on, but I figure I might as well save $$ on my power bill.

So thanks to Dan for the break in. It still looks, feels, and smells new, so I know you treated it with care. Thanks again to Chris Coffee for providing great service as usual.

Rich

[olypdd]

From a barista's vantage point.

Here is another...

.... you know you want one of these.

And the ol Venus...which I should sell....



I happened to have an 8mm brew gasket so the ol lion of italy locks into the brew head just skippy-



I also have the hacksawed rancilio job...yes I did it with a hacksaw myself...no motors, no electricity...just brute force and finesse coming together. I have a heck of a time tamping in the naked portafilter, and see some channeling as a result. <sigh> but I have had some even extraction moments. I am hoping to find a steady way to situate the thing so I can have consistent even extraction with it.


Rich

[olypdd]

What an ingenious and yet simple set up this whole preinfusion thing, but it is easy to counter the whole preinfusion process with a microswitch mounted at an incorrect depth.

The micro switch is simple to adjust so that it sticks out of the machine body only enough to activate the pump ONLY when the E-61 brew lever is raised all the way up. The pump isn't supposed to activate before, or at the same time that the valve inside the brew group opens to allow water to pre-infuse the grounds (the valve which HB referred to in a previous post). If it does, then you no longer have pre-infusion...it was adjusted out of your machine that was designed for preinfusion by incorrect microswitch depth/placement.

So the only way to make sure this doesn't happen is to adjust the switch depth/placement correctly. Too bad our machines don't all come situated correctly to allow the pre-infusion to occur. Mine wasn't set up correctly either, but Chris Coffee has been incredible in their customer support, and they are sending me a new microswitch with an included spacer to insure that the switch will be positioned to activate the pump only after pre-infusion has occurred. (at no charge) I feel like tipping them.

By the way, I know some astute observer on this site will see my static pressure is too high. Well I have it regulated now down to 4 BAR from the 6 in the photo below. Thanks HB for the great info on the regulator valve, etc. My brewing BAR is now right at 9.5 give or take a smidge, vs the nearly 10 it was previously. I didn't have to adjust the rotary pump...I just installed the regulator and adjusted it. No fluctuation, no jumpin around. The gauge sits still even if I turn the kitchen faucet on and off like a man with a post hole digger. Know what I mean?


And yes, I took the sticker off the brew head. We don't need no steenkeen steekers to know it's hotter than a pistol.

Rich

[another_jim]

What an ingenious and yet simple set up this whole preinfusion thing, but it is easy to counter the whole preinfusion process with a microswitch mounted at an incorrect depth.

Um, on the E61, the gradual pressure ramp up, over ca 10 seconds, **after** the pump is activated, is called the preinfusion. A springloaded cylinder inside the manuial group, or a filling cavity in the solenoid versions, takes care of this process.

The "pre-pre-infuse" of opening the valve without starting the pump has no merit in pourover machines, since any puck soaking requires line pressure of at least 1.5, and probably more like 2.5 bar. In plumbed machines, most people trying back to back shots once using it, once not, have noticed no difference; although the procedure has, like everything else in espresso, some advocates.

[olypdd]

another Jim,

I enjoy this dialogue because it provides me with further insights to consider, and this is one of the main reasons I have joined this site.

You make an interesting point, but in the case of my machine, as soon as I engage the pump, the water is pumping out at what would appear to be enough pressure to hit the puck with a fair amount of force, vs a mere preinfusion (passive release of static line pressure). When there is a loaded portafilter in the machine, it does ramp up to brew bar in a matter of seconds. When I raise the brew activation lever with the machine off, water runs out the brew group at a leisurely trickle, that which would appear to saturate the grounds in a manner consistent with the idea of preinfusing them in a way so as to not disrupt the integrity of the tamp, and to counter the ability for water at brew pressure to channel along side the puck, vs saturating it uniformly.

I am new to the E 61 thang, however, I did have a Zaffiro some time back, and also, have read the forums here, and at CG extensively as well as elsewhere. I must have missed something, and appreciate your insight. However, I believe that better pre-infusion will occur with the non "live", or passive release of static pressure first, then transitioning through the brief ramp up to pressure, than the active pump pressure, (even if it initially isn't up to full brewing bar), hitting the puck. In the case of my machine, it is plumbed in, on a regulator, and static pressure at the machine is 4 BAR.

I find that when I lift the handle partway, that a valve is opened and the static pressure released allowing water to run out as I mentioned above. It is occurring manually, and potentially before the pump is activated if the switch isn't sticking out too far. This is not to say that something else isn't being activated, as you have mentioned, when the pump is turned on.

What I have noticed recently is that when I manually preinfuse the puck for a second (or so) before I turn the machine back on and activate the pump, the shot shows much more even extraction.

Perhaps I misunderstood what exactly "defines" preinfusion as it relates to the operation of an E-61 brew group, but based on what I have read, and derived from speaking to Chris Coffee, it seems reasonable that initial soaking of the grounds at just over static pressure vs live pump pressure provides less invasive pre-infusion.

I also noticed that when using the bottomless portafilter on my Venus (vibe pump, no pre-infusion, non E-61), that I had alot of channeling. Wouldn't the same ramp up to pressure there serve to preinfuse the coffee as you mentioned with the E-61. In fact, it seems to ramp up more slowly than my Vetrano rotary pump, but I haven't timed the two. Perhaps I will do this.

Also, I have read the posts regarding "leveling of the coffee" vs tamping to insure even extraction. Interesting stuff for sure, but I haven't played with the idea as of yet.

Thanks for the info. Interesting stuff.

Rich

[HB]

You make an interesting point, but in the case of my machine, as soon as I engage the pump, the water is pumping out at what would appear to be enough pressure to hit the puck with a fair amount of force, vs a mere preinfusion (passive release of static line pressure). When there is a loaded portafilter in the machine, it does ramp up to brew bar in a matter of seconds. When I raise the brew activation lever with the machine off, water runs out the brew group at a leisurely trickle, that which would appear to saturate the grounds in a manner consistent with the idea of preinfusing them in a way so as to not disrupt the integrity of the tamp, and to counter the ability for water at brew pressure to channel along side the puck, vs saturating it uniformly.

I did a little experimentation as documented in The Secret Life of Ristrettos, excerpted below:

While my comment isn't directly related to this thread, lately I've been experimenting with extraction rates as part of the Vetrano wrapup. That, plus Ken and Jim's The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots has me thinking about extended preinfusion for E61s, despite their native capability.

Combining the two ideas, I increased the water inlet pressure to three bar. When the lever is up and the machine is off, water flows readily through the grouphead. The "rebound" time for the Vetrano is 30 seconds after the flush, so I reserved the last 10 seconds for additional preinfusion. Specifically:

• Flush as usual; start preparing the portafilter (or prepare basket separately and drop it in later)
• Lock in the portafilter
• The heating element will click off 15-20 seconds after the flush; once it does, turn off the machine
• At the 20 second mark, lift the lever up. The mains pressure will preinfuse the puck ever-so-gently
• After 30 seconds, turn on the machine. Since the lever is still up, the pump begins immediately.

So what does this have to do with ristrettos? Getting the grind perfect for ristrettos on heat exchanger espresso machines can be tricky. Too slow a flow and the HX will overheat, producing a doubly-bitter shot (partially from high temperature, partially from overextraction). Too fast a flow and the rich, sweet, punchiness of a ristretto can be lost. The extra preinfusion appears to increase the margin of error.

As a rule of thumb, ten seconds of (extra) preinfusion equals a grinder adjustment of two millimeters coarser on the Mazzer Mini, or a reduction of coffee equal to approximately 1.5 grams (*). Running the mega-sized preinfusion "softens" the puck and opens a wider window for good extractions. My results so far for ristrettos are improved, though the opposite occurred for regular doubles, where the flavors became muddy and flatter.

(*) Don't take these numbers too literally, they are meant to convey that the effect is very small.

The machine off-on trick avoided any quibbling about the "3/4" position being used for preinfusion. I'm not convinced of the merits of this approach, but it's worth further experimentation.

Wouldn't the same ramp up to pressure there serve to preinfuse the coffee as you mentioned with the E-61. In fact, it seems to ramp up more slowly than my Vetrano rotary pump, but I haven't timed the two. Perhaps I will do this.

It's not easy to compare different grouphead designs; adding different pumps makes it even more challenging. That was a surprising lesson I learned in Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor, i.e., the assumption that a slow pressure ramp up = preinfusion = high forgiveness factor isn't true. I thought it didn't make sense, but several others (including Jim) have confirmed my findings that the A3, which ramps up as fast as a rocket, is a forgiving espresso machine.

[olypdd]

HB,

Very interesting info. I also looked over Ken and Jim's research. One thing I will say about that....I don't think I could discern any difference in shot quality between the rotary and vibe pumps, nor did I expect to. I enjoy the rotary and direct connect for all the obvious reasons, and acquired both with the belief that neither would diminish shot quality.

As for preinfusion time, it has been my impression that it was designed to be a very brief event on the way to live brew pressure's introduction to the puck. After all, moving the lever upwards to brew takes very little time indeed. So in my mind, it was interesting that such a "brief" event along the way, could have such impact on shot quality. Not flavor necessarily, but rather extraction.

I am dazzled at Ken and Jim's research. I would have never devoted so much time and focus to this as they have. A part of me is inclined to fly by the seat of my pants, utilizing intuition and instinct along the way, and making it more of an art (within reason). It's also important to have some hard data to rely on as a basis for what we do to reach our goal of quality espresso. Hey, I want to try Eric's design in monitoring brew water temp and see how that may benefit my consistency of shot quality. So thanks to Ken and Jim for the trouble. I will just soak it up and enjoy the benefit of all this.

HB, when you wrote of forgiveness factor and its correlation to ramp up speed, it reminded me of that which I wrote of above...the fact that any passive introduction of water to the puck just before the pump kicks on, is a situation where preinfusion is very short, and hardly a pause. Very interesting findings you have shared.

HB...thanks for the info. I intend to try the technique you listed. I love Ristrettos and it will be interesting to see how things turn out.


Rich

[RapidCoffee]

What I have noticed recently is that when I manually preinfuse the puck for a second (or so) before I turn the machine back on and activate the pump, the shot shows much more even extraction.

Perhaps I misunderstood what exactly "defines" preinfusion as it relates to the operation of an E-61 brew group, but based on what I have read, and derived from speaking to Chris Coffee, it seems reasonable that initial soaking of the grounds at just over static pressure vs live pump pressure provides less invasive pre-infusion.

I also noticed that when using the bottomless portafilter on my Venus (vibe pump, no pre-infusion, non E-61), that I had alot of channeling. Wouldn't the same ramp up to pressure there serve to preinfuse the coffee as you mentioned with the E-61. In fact, it seems to ramp up more slowly than my Vetrano rotary pump, but I haven't timed the two. Perhaps I will do this.

Also, I have read the posts regarding "leveling of the coffee" vs tamping to insure even extraction. Interesting stuff for sure, but I haven't played with the idea as of yet.

Hi Rich. I humbly suggest you reread those posts, take the lessons learned to heart, and work on your barista skills. Yes, prewetting may provide a more even extraction because it allows the coffee grounds to expand and fill in cracks in the puck. But you'd be better off fixing the grind/dose/distribution/tamp defects that produced those imperfections in the first place, and only then play around with pre-preinfusion. Note that Dan used an extended preinfusion for reasons of taste, not to fix channeling.

No offense intended. We all go through this with the bottomless PF. It's a great tool for improving espresso technique - and teaching humility.
________
John

[olypdd]

John,

I agree with you....I think I might clarify a couple of things. When I read some posted questions and discussions on this site regarding micro switch placement and preinfusion, it seemed that the point wasn't clearly made that the switch could be adjusted to allow for a quick and gentle prewetting of the puck before the pump kicks on (except, of course that HB posted the drawings of the groups guts and made things more vividly clear). It was always my understanding that this was how the E-61 was supposed to be set up, and vendors who sell these have contributed to this understanding, and that it was designed in this way to help prevent channeling. Perhaps it wasn't the intent of the design, so then I ask, since it is something this group can do, does it contribute to better shots?

Also, I have read the discussions, and observed the renderings of the E-61 group on this site and others to gain an understanding of its design, and how water moves through it.

What I have also understood, was that pre-infusion contributed to flavor, and that one could play with this whole process and possibly experience different flavor profiles. HB apparently studied this, and reported his findings regarding ristrettos, which I found very interesting. In the photos below, the one on the left is a standard M1A1 double, and those on the right are ristrettos with a wee bit of preinfusion. Now differences in light and photo techniques aside, you can still see a difference in "color". The ristrettos were sweeter and more flavorful, and the one on the left was pretty good, and smooth, but no real complexity in the flavor profile.

I focused on channeling, because with the naked portafilter, it's one of the main things you hope you won't see during extraction, however, I was seeing channeling at times, and could not determine if it was just because of tamp/techniques, or a lack of preinfusion, or what. Channeling was something that seemed to become less of a factor when I did a little extra preinfusion. BUT, I have said from the start, that tamping with a naked portafilter was awkward to me, as it doesn't sit nice and level like my LaMarzocco, etc. Reading the threads here has led me to try tamping with the basket removed. I am seeing what appears to be improved results in extraction. It too is a bit awkward, but only because it is new to me, and not physically like trying to hold a naked unit on the edge of the counter on a towel.

Plus, I have been incorporating BobYs technique for flush, wait 3 mins, flush 2 oz, and wait however many seconds gets you the brew temp you're after. I am impressed thus far.

My machine is "new" to me, so I, like anyone else, am getting acquainted, and applying new techniques at the same time. I have no trouble with being humble. I have learned that it is best to approach things in life with an attitude of humility and discernment. I am trying to learn and improve...bottom line. I will say that with my Elektra and Venus, I had grown to the point that pulling most incredible ristrettos was a consistent easy effort, and that with no emphasis on any attempts at preinfusion. (although it may have been occurring in some manner) It only became a real interest to me when I purchased an E-61 machine, because preinfusion was always represented to me as an important design feature of the E-61. Not to compensate for poor technique, but to compliment proper technique.

[olypdd]

I have using BobY's heat management regimen on my Vetrano since yesterday and I am getting close. The body, color and crema of my ristrettos overall is beautiful, but I can tell by "taste" that the brew temp is very slightly high. Or perhaps it's because I didn't try the manual infusion on these last 3 pulls. <gasp, that infusion word again> The cool thing about BobY's method is that the taste will clue me in on how long to wait after the 2 oz flush.

On that note, one question I have is regarding the initial 6 oz flush. BobY has his machine set to 1.1 BAR boiler pressure. I have a Vetrano with a boiler pressure at 1.2 BAR. Should I flush more than 6 oz initially when the machine has been idle a while? Say more like 7-8 oz? OR perhaps wait less than 3 minutes to do the 2 oz thang? I will have to cogitate on this a spell.

I also threw another artifact into the whole mix....a triple LaMarzocco basket. I like tamping into this one out of the portafilter, as it taller and easier for my big hands to deal with. The consistency of even extractions is improving very quickly. I believe it was anotherJim who mentioned some time back that tamping in the same type of motion as a coin going round and round before it falls flat is an interesting idea to seal around the puck, and one I am trying as well. Stirring with the end of a large paperclip before tamping really mixes up the grind promoting more uniformity throughout the puck, and makes me wonder why the heck I didn't try this before.

I don't believe I would be pulling great shots so soon on my HX if it weren't for the great input of HB members. I look forward to pulling outstanding shots once I have settled into my routine.

Thanks again for the great insights and critique.

Rich

[HB]

I have a Vetrano with a boiler pressure at 1.2 BAR. Should I flush more than 6 oz initially when the machine has been idle a while? Say more like 7-8 oz? OR perhaps wait less than 3 minutes to do the 2 oz thang? I will have to cogitate on this a spell.

For the Vetrano, I would leave the flush amount the same and reduce the rebound time by 5 seconds if the espresso taste indicated the brew temperature was too high. BobY's keep it simple instructions are consistent with flush-rebound-pull, not flush-n-go, and I obtained better results that way. Most of the semi-commercial HX espresso machines perform better using one or the other, while some will only perform correctly with one approach (for example, the Elektra A3's recovery was too fast for anything but flush-n-go, i.e., it's "rebound" maximum was around 10-15 seconds).

[olypdd]

Thanks Dan, that's in fact what I just tried (smoothed out the taste ) and will continue for awhile and see what the shot average is. Like I said, I'm close, and I prefer the Keep It Simple methodology. I'm too busy to do much else.

Rich