Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano - Page 3

[skyryders90]

I saw that with the second tip Chris shipped me with the Bric' and it's 1.5L 1900w. It's a four hole, and each of the four holes is larger than the holes on the two hole tip. OTOH, the what I believe is the stock Bric' two hole tip the boiler climbs while steaming and seems undersized and slow steaming. I have the Gold Pro 2 hole Malachi suggested coming.

This 4-hole tip is what I got with my Bricc as the "stock" tip - the holes are HUGE. I have used the gold pro tip, and while the performance is pretty good, by the standards discussed above it would be considered too slow - my boiler will drop initially, then heat back up well into normal, even so well as for the pstat to cycle on and off. I could literally steam ALL day constantly with this tip with no problems (other than boiler refill). I am currently using the 2-hole tip from EPNW - the one that is very much like the gold pro but in stainless. I THINK the holes are slightly larger than those on the gold pro, at least judging by boiler performance. This one works quite nicely. I have also played with the old expobar "tube" tip - it works pretty well too - not too fast for the machine, but a bit too fast for my meager barista skills.

[HB]

A number of HB members are big fans of Caffe Fresco and its enthusiastic proprietor, Tony Sciandra. The order of Ambrosia Espresso Blend and Papua New Guinea that I was expecting this week arrived yesterday and today was the first day after its recommended rest period of five days. Generally I am reluctant to post tasting notes after only a few samples, but seeing that I'm on vacation and Tony asked for feedback in an attached note regarding the Ambrosia's darker roast level, I'll post some brief comments.

(Our own Abe Carmeli offers the love soliloquy Ambrosia by Caffe Fresco - A blend worthy of its name - I'm still a little dizzy: "As I watched it pour into my cup, I had a hunch something extraordinary is happening. It built slowly in the cup, as reddish dark brown crema, heavy and thick, like pouring melted chocolate. With the first sip I took I felt the consistency of buttery heavy cream. Complex and deep tones, balanced rich with a hint of dry fruit and strong bittersweet chocolate tone.").

First of all, I was surprised to see a slight sheen of oil already showing. I've only sampled his Ambrosia Espresso Blend once before and I remember it being roasted to barely Full City. The recommended maximum brew temperature is 201F, which translates into about 4-5 seconds past the end of the water dance on the Vetrano. Having only 14 ounces to work with, I avoided wasting coffee on a "garbage shot" by flushing the group once, waiting three minutes, and then a short flush-n-go before extracting; this extra step seems to improve the accuracy of the Vetrano's first shot of the day (*). To allay my concern that an apparently beautiful extraction would color my judgment, the last few days I've kept the bottomless portafilter in the drawer. This helps assure that I focus on the in-cup results, but today it's back out for confirming the AEB's extraction. The grind setting was about 3/4 notch coarser than the Kid O's from yesterday. After one iffy extraction, the pulls have come together nicely at around 28 seconds, 18 grams, 201F estimated temperature. Rich and balanced, its chocolaty creaminess lasts until the bottom of the cup. Really yummy.

However, I'm not entirely sold on the higher roast level. It may make for an easier pull and the chocolates are stronger, but I miss the added dimension the longer roast appears to suppress. Instead of the dark ruby red / brown crema, it's closer to mahogany / cherry wood; it still exhibits the sweetness I remember from the first batch from a few weeks ago. My hope is that another day of rest will enhance the complexity, especially in the finish, as sometimes happens with coffee.

Oh, I've been woefully neglectful of reminders to study single origin espressos, so later this week I'll report on the PNG that accompanied the same order (described in Caffe Fresco Brown Brindle PNG).

(*) In keeping with my promise not to pollute my early findings with diagnostic equipment, this judgment is based only on taste. I've noticed a darker initial crema and indications of over-temperature extractions if I simply flush-n-go straight out of the gate after an extended idle period. Later I will confirm this with in-basket / thermofilter measurements.

[HB]

As for results, I can manage microfoam with all of them and found the EPNW noticeably slower than the stock tip - good if you only want to steam a very small amount of milk.

I have also played with the old expobar "tube" tip - it works pretty well too - not too fast for the machine, but a bit too fast for my meager barista skills.

Jim's proposed "Goldilock's Guidelines" for judging the appropriate balance of steam output and boiler capacity is helpful, but there's no substitute for actually trying it yourself. Each Friday I join other locals at Counter Culture Coffee's espresso lab and play with their "big boy toys" (*) for an hour, so I'm comfortable working with equipment ranging from a Rancilio Silvia to multi-group La Marzoccos. Abe noted an extra sweetness to the milk in his Synesso Cyncra report today. Often home baristas focus on the texture of the milk and don't discuss the sweetness, something that I believe the big boys deliver more easily than their smaller siblings. Although I've not done side-by-side taste comparisons, my gut feeling is that the so-called "cheater tips" sacrifice flavor for texture. Returning to the Vetrano, I find it has enough ummph to approach commercial standards, but not so much that your average enthusiast feels compelled to wear protective safety glasses.

I've used the "tube" tip and it's certainly far from my favorite. The holes for the tip of the "no burn" steam arm are slightly smaller, which makes the difference between barely acceptable and one of the best. I'll come back to this point when I have the adapter, since I've not done an apples-to-apples comparison.


Close-up of the first moments of the "cinnamon cascade"
formed by the separating layers of a macchiato

(*) They've recently upgraded to the La Marzocco GB5, woohoo! We meet at their Durham location every Friday at 7:30am; contact me if you would like to join us.

[malachi]

...my gut feeling is that the so-called "cheater tips" sacrifice flavor for texture.

Absolutely!!!

[another_jim]

Jim's proposed "Goldilock's Guidelines" for judging the appropriate balance of steam output and boiler capacity is helpful, but there's no substitute for actually trying it yourself. Each Friday I join other locals at Counter Culture Coffee's espresso lab and play with their "big boy toys" (*) for an hour, so I'm comfortable working with equipment ranging from a Rancilio Silvia to multi-group La Marzoccos. Abe noted an extra sweetness to the milk in his Synesso Cyncra report today. Often home baristas focus on the texture of the milk and don't discuss the sweetness, something that I believe the big boys deliver more easily than their smaller siblings.

Your point about sweetness **may** be correct when comparing a small hole tip on a small boiler machine with a larger hole tip on a larger machine; but it is emphatically untrue if the same machine is used. A large hole tip on a small boiler, where the pressure drops down to 0.6 bar or so before the heater can hold it, will produce either mere unsweet hot milk using conventional microfrothing technique; or even less sweet meringue if one plays the tip over the surface.

But as a matter of fact, I find no pronounced lack of sweetness in the milk I froth at home compared to what I get at cafes. If there is a difference, it's small enough to not show up in my taste memory; although I grant it may show on side by side tests. However, I think the reason has less to do with the tip and more to do with frothing times ...

The very last thing I need is a frother that can do 12 to 20 ounces in 20 seconds, since I prefer to froth separately for each cup made (on a home 1 group) and I refuse to pour more than 6 ounces of milk at a time (my macs get 3/4 ounce, my cappas 3 ounces, my lattes 6, which fill the standard 2, 6 and 12 ounce cups after stretching). So a frother that does 4 to 6 ounces in around 12 to 15 seconds is perfect for me. Perhaps the lack of sweetness is due to the excessive frothing times one gets when using a small tip on lots of milk.

But what on earth is anyone doing frothing more than 6 ounces of milk with a one group machine? Neither the coffee nor the milk should be standing around for a really good cappa, so the only place for larger milk frothing volumes is on a multigroup machine or for someone who wants to drink coffee flavored milk.

[skyryders90]

I've used the "tube" tip and it's certainly far from my favorite. The holes for the tip of the "no burn" steam arm are slightly smaller, which makes the difference between barely acceptable and one of the best. I'll come back to this point when I have the adapter, since I've not done an apples-to-apples comparison.

I really wish there was a tip with holes that were bigger than the gold pro, but smaller than the "tube tip."

[HB]

Yesterday I received the 8mm female to 10mm male thread adapter mentioned earlier in this thread. Although I'm very satisfied with the stock setup, the adapter does offer the option of swapping in "low volume" steam tips. Below is a picture of the steam arm sans tip:


Teflon tubing insert of the "no burn" steam arm

Keep it clean! Gunky milk residue building up in the steam wand? Ewww-w! Remember to purge the steam wand before and after each use, especially with the no burn steam arm. While I've never had a problem keeping it clean, I see that the tighter confines of this wand could punish those with less circumspect habits. To avoid introducing milk into the arm, have a slight outflow of steam going when inserting and removing the tip from the pitcher. For good measure, I also purge a spritz of steam from the wand after wiping it down. With this regime, I've never seen any evidence of milk residue on the interior surfaces of the wand or tips.

[skyryders90]

Yesterday I received the 8mm female to 10mm male thread adapter mentioned earlier in this thread. Although I'm very satisfied with the stock setup, the adapter does offer the option of swapping in "low volume" steam tips. Below is a picture of the steam arm sans tip:

image: http://www.home-barista.com/images/no-burn-tubing.jpg
Teflon tubing insert of the "no burn" steam arm

Keep it clean! Gunky milk residue building up in the steam wand? Ewww-w! Remember to purge the steam wand before and after each use, especially with the no burn steam arm. While I've never had a problem keeping it clean, I see that the tighter confines of this wand could punish those with less circumspect habits. To avoid introducing milk into the arm, have a slight outflow of steam going when inserting and removing the tip from the pitcher. For good measure, I also purge a spritz of steam from the wand after wiping it down. With this regime, I've never seen any evidence of milk residue on the interior surfaces of the wand or tips.

When you open up the Vetrano, can you take a look at the amount of space taken up on the inside of the case by the hardware for the steam wand? I've been toying with the idea of buying one of the steam arm assemblies from Andreja/Vetrano/GiottoPremium/etc and installing it on my Bricc in place of the traditional wand. Tinkering for tinkering's sake, perhaps, but I'm interested nonetheless.

[HB]

Clearance shouldn't be an issue. You can see the back of the steam wand stopcock in this picture from Chris' Coffee:

[skyryders90]

Clearance shouldn't be an issue. You can see the back of the steam wand stopcock in this picture from Chris' Coffee:

I've seen that picture - what prompted me to ask you is that Chris told me that the valve assembly inside the machine was quite large, and that he didn't think it would fit. Since you have one of them right there in front of you, I was hoping you could compare the general size of the entire valve assembly with the more traditional arms you have seen. You think it would fit?

[HB]

Since you have one of them right there in front of you, I was hoping you could compare the general size of the entire valve assembly with the more traditional arms you have seen.

I don't understand Chris' comment. From the backside it looks the same as a "standard" steam valve to me:


Closeup of the Vetrano's steam valve fitting

PS: Chris' FAQ has a nice closeup of the disassembled no burn steam arm and a typical compression type.

[msurdyk]

I may as well weigh in on my new Vetrano after my first week of use.

I have had a Silvia for about four years but for the last six months, I have been using a Saeco V'spresso exclusively. I finally decided that the convenience of the super-auto was not worth the quality sacrifice. Before I rescued Silvia from storage, I did a bit of research and decided to buy a Vetrano.

After reading Dan's initial illustrated write up it was relatively simple to remove Vetrano's cover and install the supplied drain hose. I couldn't find a long enough screwdriver and opted to not tighten the hose clamp. The hose fits snugly enough and with my installation, I don't see any danger of the drain hose pulling loose. It has not leaked in the week that I've been up and running.

I plumbed the Vetrano supply line in by splicing the ¼" line from my kitchen sink to the refrigerator. This turned out to be an incredibly easy exercise and if I'd realized it as I was ordering the Vertano, I would have asked for a ¼" John Guest fitting instead of the 3/8" that was supplied.

In addition to the Vetrano, I have a new Espro tamp and a naked portafilter with triple basket, so my experience is a bit more complex than simply transitioning to a new espresso machine. Never-the-less I was pouring great shots within a half-hour of digging Rocky out of storage and cleaning him up a bit.

I have been following this thread and refining my flush techniques and enjoying everything about the new machine.

There is one thing that is puzzling -. Some folks seem to say that you can pre-infuse by pausing in the mid lever position of their e-61 machine. That's not the way my Vetrano seems to work. Even though there is a constant 3-4 bar line pressure on my gauge no water comes through the group head in the mid lever position. Am I misinterpreting something?

[HB]

I have had a Silvia for about four years but for the last six months, I have been using a Saeco V'spresso exclusively. I finally decided that the convenience of the super-auto was not worth the quality sacrifice.

Welcome back to the Dark Side! Yours is the first account I've read of someone going from semi-auto to super-auto and back again.

There is one thing that is puzzling -. Some folks seem to say that you can pre-infuse by pausing in the mid lever position of their e-61 machine.

Indeed, water slowly flows out of the group under line pressure just before the pump engages. Try turning off the machine and raising the lever all the way up. Does water flow? If not, do you have a backflow solenoid on the water inlet (i.e., a solenoid that is closed unless the pump is running)?

[skyryders90]

I don't understand Chris' comment. From the backside it looks the same as a "standard" steam valve to me:

PS: Chris' FAQ has a nice closeup of the disassembled no burn steam arm and a typical compression type.

Yeah, I've seen that closeup. Chris is great, but I kinda think he just didn't want to sell me one.

[RapidCoffee]

Hello from another new pleased Vetrano owner. My experiences thus far mirror those of Mike: simple hookup, highly forgiving, overall a great espresso machine. I have a few minor gripes, such as the overly short drip tray which allows water to splash out the front when doing the portafilter wiggle. But my first impressions (posted here last week) are very positive.

Chris emailed me the following [sic], from which I assumed that no manual preinfusion was possible on the Vetrano:

"The lever does nothing in the middle position simple raise it all the way up to brew and all the way down to stop. Pre infusion in and E61 group is a funtion that happens internally in the machine automatically."

Dan, I tried your exercise. There is water flow under line pressure when the lever is up and the machine is off. But no flow occurs when the machine is on and the lever is in the middle position. Eventually the pump engages, but no water emerges from the group until the lever is fully up. To my knowledge, there is no backflow solenoid at the water inlet.

Any thoughts? I'm not sure I would use manual preinfusion on a regular basis, but it might be fun to play around with...

- John

[skyryders90]

Dan, I tried your exercise. There is water flow under line pressure when the lever is up and the machine is off. But no flow occurs when the machine is on and the lever is in the middle position. Eventually the pump engages, but no water emerges from the group until the lever is fully up. To my knowledge, there is no backflow solenoid at the water inlet.

What happens if the machine is powered off and you raise the lever all the way?

[RapidCoffee]

What happens if the machine is powered off and you raise the lever all the way?

That's when water flows. No water comes out until the lever is all the way up, regardless of whether the machine is on or off.

[HB]

There is water flow under line pressure when the lever is up and the machine is off. But no flow occurs when the machine is on and the lever is in the middle position.

There's no mystery here, seal #5 begins to lift at the midway point and the outer cam presses the microswitch to engage the pump. Lino's diagrams from E61 Group Espresso Machine: Detailed Interior make it very clear what's happening:

Cross Section, lever and valves in brew position

As shipped, the evaluation Vetrano opens the valve slightly past the midpoint and a few millimeters before the pump engages. You could adjust the microswitch such that the cam lobe pushes it later in the arm's arc, if you want to play with it (or just turn off the machine and lift the lever fully to manually preinfuse). Initially I thought the no-pump flow might be an interesting way to hear the "water dance" better. The Vetrano's pump is so quiet though, I haven't bothered investigating that angle.

[skyryders90]

That's when water flows. No water comes out until the lever is all the way up, regardless of whether the machine is on or off.

But - to be clear - if the machine is off, and you lift the lever all the way up, water DOES flow under line pressure? If so, move the lever very slowly, and note the point that water begins to flow. Is it truly ALL the way up? On my e-61 Bricc, the point that the water begins to flow is roughly 2/3 the way up the lever lift.

This is probably just a matter of adjusting the pump activation microswitch.

[RapidCoffee]

But - to be clear - if the machine is off, and you lift the lever all the way up, water DOES flow under line pressure? If so, move the lever very slowly, and note the point that water begins to flow. Is it truly ALL the way up? On my e-61 Bricc, the point that the water begins to flow is roughly 2/3 the way up the lever lift.

This is probably just a matter of adjusting the pump activation microswitch.

You're right - when the machine is off, water flows before the lever is fully up (but well past the midpoint position). I assume the microswitch is adjusted by simply loosening the nut and turning? Thanks to you both for the tip.

BTW, has anyone tried manual preinfusion on the Vetrano (or Bric)? Curious that Chris plainly said no dice (and adjusted the microswitch so that no manual preinfusion was possible).