Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano

[HB]

The design of the E61 group earns its reputation as the heart of an espresso machine that is forgiving of minor errors in barista technique. This guides considers the latest rotary pump-equipped E61 model from Quick Mill, the Vetrano, named after a gentleman from Milan who worked for Faema for forty years and now restores original Faeme E61 one and two group espresso machines simply for the pleasure.

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[Matthew Brinski]

Dan,

I read the article last evening. Excellent review (as usual). I really like your conclusion. I'm sure that I'm speaking for many when I state my appreciation for the work you put into these buyer's guides. The purchase of my Vetrano was based heavily on your Andreja review. Thanks.

Matthew Brinski

[RapidCoffee]

Carefully researched and well crafted review of an excellent HX machine. Nice job, Dan!

[woodchuck]

Dan, an excellent review, as always. This is the machine I kept looking at before the S1 stole my eye. With Eric's latest probe it makes the choice tougher.

Cheers

Ian

[olypdd]

Great article Dan. One of the reasons I purchased a Vetrano was your well written evaluation of it. In fact, I purchased the first one you evaluated and here it is-



I did not find the first edition machine objectionable and it was a snap to plumb in the line and get it up and running. I may connect the drain some time, but I am in no hurry as this earlier model sounds like a real pain to connect the drain hose to.

as for the probe and thermal readout...well I will be exploring this further.

Thanks again,

Rich

[mgalli]

Dan,
Great review, thanks for your attention to detail. I am planning on purchasing a Vetrano. QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250. An extra $250 plus installation costs is a substantial amount of extra money. Do you feel it is worth it? I have read the articles: No More Guesswork! Naked Truth of E61 Temperature Revealed, and How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

[jesawdy]

Dan,
Great review, thanks for your attention to detail. I am planning on purchasing a Vetrano. QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250. An extra $250 plus installation costs is a substantial amount of extra money. Do you feel it is worth it? I have read the articles: No More Guesswork! Naked Truth of E61 Temperature Revealed, and How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

Matthew-

I wonder if you are confusing the PID kit offered for the Quick Mill Alexia (link)? There may be folks out there that are offering to PID the Quick Mill Vetrano, I am uncertain.

If you PID a HX machine, you are replacing the pressurestat for the boiler with a PID and thermocouple, and regulate the temperature of the boiler rather than the pressure of the boiler.

See, PID on a HX...this is my thinking, is it flawed? and Temperature Stability . . . . from a Heat Exchanger (and others I am forgetting) for related discussion of PID and HX.

To answer your last question, no, it is not really a direct replacement for Eric's E61 group thermocouple adapter.

[HB]

QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250... Do you feel it is worth it? Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

Sorry, I haven't tried a PID on the Vetrano.

As Jeff noted, Ken Fox and Ian Eales (cafeIKE) have PID'd their HX espresso machines with good results. It would be difficult to find two machines more different than theirs (La Cimbali DT1, Vibiemme Domobar Super), but both reported it was necessary to lower the boiler pressure considerably, which makes for less impressive steaming. On the other hand, you can quickly change the boiler pressure via a second PID set point, if you're only an occasional cappuccino / latte drink.

The Vibiemme Domobar Super is similar to the Vetrano, but different enough that I'm not confident that Ian's results would be directly applicable to it. For example, the Vibiemme has a thermosyphon flow restrictor, the Vetrano does not. While I haven't had the heat exchangers and HX injectors out side-by-side for comparison, their operation is different enough that I suspect they're also different. Using a PID to regulate to "normal" boiler pressure (1.0 to 1.2 bar) seems pointless to me because you'll still have to vary the flush; eliminating the need to vary the flush amount was the major benefit of the Fox/Eales PID conversions.

Is it worth PID'ing an HX espresso machine? Obviously some feel it's a great idea. I've had no interest in taking on the cost or trouble, simply because I find brew temperature management very low on the difficulty scale. Learning to diagnose taste flaws, for example, is much more challenging. For those who want lots of feedback, Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter reduces it to pure mechanics (i.e., you flush until the reading says your brew temperature + some delta, wait 10 seconds, pull... works every time for a decent range of brew temperatures). It does however take a few extra seconds and more water than a low boiler pressure PID solution.

[mgalli]

Jeff and Dan thanks for the responses. I went back and looked up the information for the PID and it was indeed for the Alexia, not the Vetrano. I did not understand how a PID worked, but now I have a better understanding. I will not be pursuing a PID for the Vetrano. Thanks again for the information.

[RegulatorJohnson]

the Vibiemme has a thermosyphon flow restrictor, the Vetrano does not.

over the past few weeks, i have learned the vetrano a bit more.

to me it acts alot like the pulser did before i put in that thermosyphon restrictor.

its great but its still a heat management of keeping the brew temps cool in the brewing range. if there was a restrictor in there i think it would work very well and increase the time you are in the brew temp range you want to be in. the pulser with restrictor will stay very stable.

currently on the vetrano, i can flush the water temp to 200° then dose and tamp. 25 seconds later its boiling again, and needs a quick flush (pstat 1-1.3 bar). if i go way below what i want. it will rebound up to about the right temp. but i have to trust it and not flush, not even to see if its boiling again.

it seems on the vetrano without the restrictor "flush and wait" is best. i tend to prefer a "flush and go" technique. i have been tryin to get both techniques wired on the vetrano. a fun process but it seems like this machine prefers "flush and wait". i wonder if a restrictor will help? can it ruin a machine to mess around with its thermosyphon?

thanks for the time.

jon

[erics]

it seems on the vetrano without the restrictor "flush and wait" is best. i tend to prefer a "flush and go" technique. i have been tryin to get both techniques wired on the vetrano. a fun process but it seems like this machine prefers "flush and wait".

The problem that I see is that you are "liking" one method - flush-n-go while the machine "apparently likes" another method - flush-n-wait. And you are, IMO, not doing either - bad boy

To me, flush-n-go means exactly that, flush to A) a particular temperature, B) a particular length of time/volume, C) a specified time after the water dance ends. After either A, B, or C are accomplished, the PF is locked in and the shot initiated right then and there. I am personally convinced that the flush-n-wait methodology will produce consistent shots but I certainly also appreciate the fact that there are lots who prefer other ways and have perfected those other ways.

Method 1

Grind, dose, distribute, & tamp using a spare PF with the little spring removed. The springless, basketless, PF you flush through is sitting in the machine.

Flush to 200, remove and shake/wipe the PF dry, gently plop the basket in and pull the shot.

Method 2

Grind, dose, distribute, & tamp using a spare PF with the little spring removed. The springless, basketless, PF you flush through is sitting in the machine. At the same time you start grinding, start flushing down to 186.

Anytime after the conclusion of the flush to 186, remove the PF and wipe dry. Reinsert PF. When group temperature hits 197, insert the prepped basket. Initiate the shot at 198.

Corrections

If you are twiddling your thumbs waiting for the machine to climb back to 198 because you are skillled at rapidly dosing, distributing, & tamping, flush to 188 vice 186. If the shot seems "cold" at 198, try 199 and so on.

[RegulatorJohnson]

well IMO the flush and wait is inconsistent because you really have to become a slave to the time and the machine reheating.

if you stop to talk to someone or the wife wants you to feed the dog or some other thing around the house happens to distract you you may end up changing that "wait" time.

on flush n go. the rebound time variable is minimized.

i still think a restrictor would be a good addition to this machine.

jon

[erics]

I agree 100% with your rationale - I have a wife, a daughter, and a dog.

I did purchase a variable restriction device to install in Anita - it does not look like a "walk in the park." Vetrano would be easier because there is about 1.25" more horizontal distance between the hx outlet and the group inlet.

I would like to think that there is some reason other than manufacturing cost as to why all of our machines are without this type of valve but I have not been able to arrive at it.

[RegulatorJohnson]

so if i knew someone that wanted to put a expobar thermosyphon restrictor disc in their vetrano would this be something to follow?

i think ultimately a valve would be ideal. maybe one day ill be punk-rock enough to get one in there.

thanks.

jon

[erics]

Jon said -

"restrictor in here correct?" - yes

"open these" - yes

"hold onto this? also loosen it?" - no and no. You may need to apply a counterhold onto the 90 ell in the area above your blue circle and to the left of your red circle.

Also loosen, but do not necessarily remove, the M6 hex head screw on bottom of machine for boiler mounting and you may want/need to loosen the other thermosyphon line, the hot water line, and the steam line to give a little more flexibility.

[Kuban111]

Hi all,

I just wanted to post & thank all that contribute to HB, Dan and the rest of the members here.
With your very helpful info on HB and review that was made on the Quickmill Vetrano.
I am happy to say that I just picked one up.

Very hard decision to make considering that I had to choose between so many other well made and design machines but in the end it really came down to 2 things for me.

1. The final conclusion on the Vetrano buyer"s guide made it real easy to figure out that this was the machine for me.

2. Chris Coffee, what can I say that hasn"t been said before about them. They are just great at helping people; there customer service is just the best "Mary is simply an Angel."

Ps: I"ve been reading all the great post here on HX vs. Single boiler machine and so on.
My 2 cents if you get an HX machine get the digital thermometer adapter kit.

Don"t hate the HX

Michael.