Advice on espresso and coffee combo, preferably built-in

[espresso]

Hello! I am new to this site, and have been an avid espresso drinker for about two decades. I am still using my 18-year-old machine (Krups) that I brought with me from Europe. It has been serving me well thus far. But you guys have got espresso down to a science, and I realize a whole new world lies ahead of me. I would love to explore it!!

Anyway, the point of this post is that I am going to embark on a kitchen remodel. Coffee/espresso-making needs to be addressed, since my current machine is showing signs of aging. In an effort to reduce counterspace clutter, but not taste, I am contemplating an all-in-one machine for both espresso and coffee. Preferably a built-in, but at least a single machine, even if not a built-in. Now, I have really no experience with those high-end machines, how they perform over time, and the results they produce.

So, I thought I'd throw this question out to you experts, and apologize if this question was asked before at some point. I'd like to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. Thank you very much!!

[another_jim]

For really excellent coffee, you need a separate grinder and machine, along with plenty of expertise. If you want to be totally over the top, You can use your remodel to bring in 220V, cold water and a drain, and budget as much as your sub-zero.

For a step or two down, no expertise required, Miele and perhaps some others make built in superautomatic coffee makers for the home. WMF makes very expensive restaurant wall mount models. These grind, make espresso and froth milk after a fashion, and can be programmed for regular sized coffee as well.

Even in this category, you're likely to spend less and get more if you stay away from built in or wall mount models.

[HB]

Although this site doesn't have many super-auto adherents, you may find the discussion Opinions of built-in espresso machines interesting.

I can relate to your comment about countertop space. For years I worked from a 22" section of countertop next to the refrigerator; it wasn't easy finding an espresso machine that was narrow enough and had a steam wand that was mounted directly over the drip tray (many have "gull wing" steam and water wands). In the end, I went with La Valentina (10.5" wide) and a Mazzer Mini. I converted it to direct plumb, including a drain for the driptray.

Another option to consider is "decorative" espresso machines, i.e., ones that are so good looking, you don't think about the space they demand. For example, the Elektra Semiautomatica and a small grinder (e.g., Le'Lit PL53) would need no more than 20" of counter space. In addition to looking gorgeous just sitting there, the Semiautomatica is light enough to pick up and place elsewhere. That's what I do during testing, i.e., I move the Semiautomatica to my desk next to the monitor.

That said, if convenience and appearance are your #1 and #2 decision criteria, I would consider a super-automatic or pod / capsule system like the Nespresso. While they cannot compete against even a modestly skilled barista working from a semi-automatic and dedicated grinder, they are about as good as your typical chain cafe.

[espresso]

Thanks so far for the responses!! I think I need to clarify my post a little. Taste is #1. Looks and size are secondary. I was just wondering if any of the built-in models, such as Miele are worth the money, or if I should steer clear of such devices, and invest the money in a freestanding machine and grinder, because they would give me better results. I am good at learning new skills.

[HB]

To put it bluntly, I've never sampled an espresso from a super-automatic that was better than "OK", and that's being generous. Well informed vendors tell me that a well-tuned commercial super-automatic in the $15K+ range can pull shots on par with a good barista on a semi-automatic; I've yet to have this experience. The built-in Miele and its ilk are essentially consumer super-automatics with very pricey wrapping. I would get a Nespresso before such a super-automatic as they're less expensive, require less maintenance, and are less likely to break (not that I'm an espresso capsule fan...).

If your #1 goal is taste and you're not worried about learning barista skills, scratch the super-automatics from your list (for the longer version of my reasoning, see Making the case for super-automatics (again) and its linked threads). The next logical step is narrow down what sort of espresso machine meets your needs. To save myself a bit of typing, I will repeat some general recommendations I wrote from a recent thread, Seeking advice about an espresso machine purchase:

Brad, I know you've been slogging through a lot of reading, but if you want make an informed decision, I recommend you soldier on. To make your reading assignment less burdensome, I'll pick what I think cover the spectrum of choices and offer a soundbite for each:

Vibiemme Domobar Super - big steamer, easier temperature control among HX espresso machines, solid construction; deeper footprint than most in its class.

Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica - showpiece design and construction, demands eclectic usage, and yet easy to manage temperature control; an absolute dream steamer.

Quickmill Vetrano - plumbed in rotary model similar to the Andreja Premium; super quiet, requires attention to temperature control (unless you install Eric's E61 thermometer adapter), solid steamer.

Expobar Brewtus - no-brainer temperature control, slower steaming than most E61 HX espresso machines; materials and workmanship are mid-grade.

La Spaziale S1 - predecessor to the La Spaziale Vivaldi II, it has garnered many admirers for its no-brainer temperature control; quiet rotary pump and solid construction, powerful and easy steaming. It's wide, but shallower than most home espresso machines.

If the list above hasn't exhausted you, add the Gaggia Achille and Lever Espresso Machine Smackdown. The Ponte Vecchio Lusso is among the contenders that deserves consideration as an easy to master espresso machine for home baristas; a Buyer's Guide on it will be published in the next month or two.

[espresso]

Thank you, Dan! I read the information to which you posted a link in your previous post. Now, I am really dismissing the notion of getting an automatic built-in. I will stick around and read all the posts on this topic to get a feel for the different machines, and the skills required. Should be fun!!!

[HB]

Now, I am really dismissing the notion of getting an automatic built-in.

Heh heh... Saving the espresso Internet, one person at a time.

[espresso]

I am learning, so forgive me if my questions are rather basic at this time. I have done some browsing, and the machines I looked at online, well mainly the La Spaziale models, talk about espresso machines. But can you also make regular coffee with them? I need to sell a machine at that price range, plus the expense of a grinder to my hubby, who does not share my love for espresso to such an extend. He's a "regular" coffee drinker. So, if I'd be specializing on espresso-making, I better have a REALLY good argument to justify the cost.

[zin1953]

Let me first say "Welcome" to HB . . .

Secondly, let me echo what's already been said about built-ins, super-autos, etc., etc.

The requirements of making great espresso are different from making great (brewed) coffee, and -- again -- with combination machines, compromises are made that often leave things lacking in both departments.

In an ideal world you would have an espresso machine AND a coffee maker, a dedicated grinder for espresso AND a dedicated grinder for brewing coffee . . . this, however, may mean you need to remodel TWO kitchens -- the second one in a completely different house, and the goal here is to AVOID divorce! Perhaps your husband will learn to love Americanos?

Several questions:
1. What is your overall budget?
2. Do you drink only espresso, or will you need to steam milk as well?
3. How many drinks do you anticipate making in a day? a week?
4. Does your husband only drink brewed (American) coffee, or does he enjoy coffee made in a French Press? (Please tell me he's not into instant!)

Cheers,
Jason

[Beezer]

I'm not aware of any combination drip/espresso machines that are capable of producing a good shot of espresso. Most such machines are in the low-end of the budget range, like the Krups combination machines. Unfortunately, if you're in search of good espresso, you need a dedicated espresso machine and a great grinder.

I was facing the same dilemma, since my wife prefers drip coffee to espresso. I solved the problem by getting a decent HX machine and a good grinder, then getting a fairly cheap drip coffee maker and a separate cheap grinder for it. It's not the most space efficient solution, but it keeps both of us happy.

[Marshall]

A tea kettle and a Melitta filter holder or a French press make a great cup of coffee. I'd spend the money on the espresso equipment.

[zin1953]

A tea kettle and a Melitta filter holder or a French press make a great cup of coffee. I'd spend the money on the espresso equipment.

Yup! That's where I was headed with my #4 above . . .

[espresso]

Thanks guys!! I think I'm zooming in on the La Spaziale, as I have read too many good reviews to pass it up. I might be able to sneak in an espresso-only machine for the price of a built-in combo, but the grinder will have to work, until my husband's pain over the cost of the espresso machine has dissipated. I don't want to traumatize him too much.

One question though, since my current machine has been running for 18 years straight without any repair. What do I have to anticipate in terms of repairs with the La Spaziale? There is not dealer nearby, so I do need to rely on mailorder, and assume it will be no different in terms of maintenance.

[Beezer]

La Spaziale machines seem to have a good reputation for reliability. However, if you do have any problems, Chris Coffee has excellent customer service, so I'm sure they could walk you through the repair process if necessary.

Are you saying you're not going to get a grinder with your machine? If so, I think that's a huge mistake. You won't get good results with pre-ground coffee or pods, and a whirly blade or cheap burr grinder won't cut it either. You might as well hold off on getting a machine if you don't get a good grinder to go with it. If cost is an issue, you might want to spend less on the machine so you can still afford a grinder. For example, you could get a nice Quickmill Vetrano or Anita for hundreds less than the Vivaldi, and save enough to afford a Macap or Mazzer grinder. Otherwise, you're just wasting money on a $2,000 machine that will give you terrible espresso.

I know that sounds a bit extreme, but it's true. Spending big bucks on a machine and then skimping on the grinder is like buying a Ferrari and then getting the cheapest tires you can find. Why bother?

[Marshall]

I know that sounds a bit extreme, but it's true. Spending big bucks on a machine and then skimping on the grinder is like buying a Ferrari and then getting the cheapest tires you can find. Why bother?

Yup. A total waste of good money.

[HB]

I know that sounds a bit extreme, but it's true. Spending big bucks on a machine and then skimping on the grinder is like buying a Ferrari and then getting the cheapest tires you can find. Why bother?

Similar to my favorite analogy, except I substitute "mounting wooden wagon wheels on it" for "getting the cheapest tires you can find."

[zin1953]

At the risk of being repetitive, let me be repetitive . . .

1. What is your overall budget?
2. Do you drink only espresso, or will you need to steam milk as well?
3. How many drinks do you anticipate making in a day? a week?
4. Does your husband only drink brewed (American) coffee, or does he enjoy coffee made in a French Press?

Heike,

If you are looking at a La Spaziale Vivaldi II, congratulations -- I've never used one, but from everything I've ever heard, read, smelt, felt, tasted, it's a great machine. If that's true, I'm presuming your budget is a bit over $2K.

What you might want to do is talk to Chris about the Izzo Alex -- either HX or their new Dual Boiler. Take the money you save, and get a good grinder at the same time . . . .

[mhoy]

You can generally get a bit of a deal if you get the Espresso machine and grinder at the same time from a vendor.

Mark

[espresso]

You guys are killing me!!

I will have to be creative about getting the grinder, then. Maybe, one day, it will just be THERE. (It's nice to have your own pay check.)

Then I'll be in espresso nirvana as well, once my brewing skills have been perfected. This site is really awesome!

To answer Dan's questions:
1. Budget: somewhat flexible at this point, and the expense may even diminish in the face of a whole kitchen makeover.
2. I mainly drink espresso, but that is thanks to my machine's difficulty of cleaning the steamer.
3. Daily usage: 2-5+ drinks/day, factoring in my husband's forced conversion.
4. We already have a coffee maker and a coffee grinder. So, hubbie's desires are already covered. I rarely drink filter coffee.

[BobS]

I will have to be creative about getting the grinder, then. Maybe, one day, it will just be THERE. (It's nice to have your own pay check.)

Buy the grinder first if it has to be one or the other. The grinder is more important than the
espresso machine. You'd be better off with a $700 to $1,000 dollar grinder and your current
machine than buying a new machine - regardless of the cost.

Think of it this way - in automotive terms, the grinder is the drivetrain and the espresso machine
is the steering wheel. No matter how much you turn the wheel, the car may not go where you
want to, when you want it to.

Bob