Brown flakes coming out of the steam wand -Rancilio Silvia

[tcampbells]

Hi. I just finished descaling my Rancilio Silvia. It was a used machine which I purchased and he (the previous user) said he descaled it as well as used filtered water only.
I have had it now just over a month and finally got around to descaling it myself, and thus comes my questions:

What does the water coming out after descaling look like?

I realize it will have a greenish tinge due to the brass boiler but when running through the steam wand there were flakes (about the size of coffee grounds for a French press pot) and they were brown in color similar to coffee, if rubbed between my fingers they turned powder which dirtied my finger just like rubbing coffee grounds.


Is this what the build up should look like or is it a sign of another problem? I assumed scales would be the white color like that in my hot water kettle over time or something. Why brown?

[HB]

Is this what the build up should look like or is it a sign of another problem? I assumed scales would be the white color like that in my hot water kettle over time or something. Why brown?

Scale (calcium carbonate) is white. The descaler solution should be blue/green with perhaps some white flakes. E61 espresso machines with chromed inner plumbing will also have silver metal flakes. Brown speaks of some containment; the thread Inside of Boiler Looks like Butterscotch Pudding graphically shows how ugly it can get. Good luck...

PS: Forum hoppers will also note Thomas' cross-post here.

[tcampbells]

That is where mine is strange. The color is dark, blackish brown as shown in the picture, much like dark roasted coffee beans. It is also paper (skin) thin.

Is it possible that milk which was not cleaned from the steam wand would "cook" inside the wand and over time change to this color, and by the massive flush of water through the wand along with the use of the descaling Citic Acid that it would cause this to be released.

Why I ask, is my understanding is the steam wand is stainless steel, and therefor there could be nothing coming off it, but if I run water through it these pieces come off (some every small (specks) and others bigger (3~4mm in size)). However even if I run a whole tank of water through the grouphead nothing comes out. which would suggest the problem is in the steam wand not the boiler. Correct?

I am sorry about posting on another site. My understanding is that many users frequent one site more then another or do not even go to the other sites. For example it wasn't until recently I found this site, but I have been reading others for a long time before I purchased my machines. I was hoping that someone might have noticed a similar problem with their machine and helped me. Though I understand that there is possibility a member might respond to both post (providing that he (or she) is a member of both groups), I would assume that a member who posts an answer on one site and sees the similar question on another site just won't not be bother by the post and simply not respond there. However, members of the other site who may not be members of this and viewed the post would be able to post their response. Thus helping me and maybe other members.

[HB]

However even if I run a whole tank of water through the grouphead nothing comes out. which would suggest the problem is in the steam wand not the boiler. Correct?

Could be. Try scrubbing the inside of the steam arm wand with a brush like this one. Or remove the steam wand and soak it in descaler for a few hours.

Though I understand that there is possibility a member might respond to both post (providing that he (or she) is a member of both groups), I would assume that a member who posts an answer on one site and sees the similar question on another site just won't not be bother by the post and simply not respond there.

I understand your point of view. If someone feels it's necessary to "throw a wider net", no problem. All I ask is that they mention the other site(s) they've already posted to so I can follow the conversations there. It's irritating to spend 20 minutes composing a thoughtful response to someone's question, only to read a similarly thoughtful response on another site an hour later. That's why the posting window has this message in it:

Welcome to HB - PLEASE READ THIS REMINDER
Many of our members frequent multiple coffee sites. Please avoid cross-posting your question, or mention the other site(s) to avoid repetitive responses. This reminder message will be displayed for your first five posts. Thanks!

[tcampbells]

Thank you for your responses and suggestions. I will follow them. I will look for a brush like that in my area (I am in Taiwan).

I understand your reasoning and I agree. I am sorry I did not mention the other site, and I will do so in the future if I post at more than one site. As well I will try and make sure that I post only when I am awake (not 2am like the last time) as it seems my spelling and reading were both bad.

[tcampbells]

Haven't found the brush yet, though I have soaked the wand and descaled the boiler again with no more brown flakes (and no scales the first time or this time - I guess the preboiled water needed in Taiwan along with the filtration through a Brita helped. Though probably doesn't help with the espresso taste).

The mystery has not been solved for the cause of these brown flakes. On the other forum someone suggested that the boiler in older models of Rancilio Silvias were lined with teflon. However an old post by Mark Prince in 2000 was is below so that would suggest it is not the case.

Newsgroups: alt.coffee
From: Mark <m...@coffeekid.removethis.com>
Date: 2000/02/29
Subject: Coming soon - Gut shots of a Rancilio Silvia

Sergio, who recently had to perform open boiler surgery on his
Rancilio Silvia, sent me a bunch of photos of the operation, and as
soon as I get some free time (next few days), I will be posting them
up in the Rancilio section of http://www.coffeekid.com .

I'm telling you now because cool news - though I recently got
confirmation from Alexander that the Silvia does NOT have a teflon
lined boiler like the older Rialtos did, Sergio totally confirmed it
after taking his boiler apart.


So, NO Teflon inside the Silvia's boilers. Let's let that rumour get
some rest...


Mark
--
Mark Prince - Web Developer and Coffee Kid

I wish I could be certain what caused this, as it does have the texture of a coating and the color is brown, but it seems rather strange.
Thomas

[mandioca]

here it is inside a La Pavoni. I have had this in almost every boiler I have opened. what is it? I don't know.

[DavidBB]

Could just be scale from hard water.

[tcampbells]

Are those scales hard or soft?
Even after mine sit and dry, they are still soft and flexible to the touch.

As it turns out they are not gone. Once Silvia heats up fully and then I blast water though the wand out it comes again. (They float as well)

It feels a little scary looking at your boiler, that we actually drink water that comes from that. It might be safe and harmless, but doesn't look that way!

[tcampbells]

Well I thought the flakes had stopped but they came back today. 4 more ones about the same size as was pictured.

Descaling it for a second time did not cause any more to be released. I guess the only solution would be to take the machine apart and look inside the boiler and the lines to see. soak the wand in descaler which I did but nothing came out. I am still looking for a small brush to use to clean inside the wand. all the brushes seem to large and my shop doesn't carry one.

I have come to the conclusion that it isn't milk. Maybe I am right and maybe I am wrong.

In the month plus that I have been using it, the wand tip has never been lower then 1 cm into the milk. If that is the case then there would have only been one CM of areas for the milk to build up. I have been very good at cleaning the wand the second I stop steaming, flip on the hot water switch and running hot water through the wand until boiler light come on (that is a lot of water and should have cleaned out the wand.)

That said, even if the past user sunk the wand the full 3 inches into the milk (up to the curve of the wand (and never cleaned it - though unlikely from the look of the machine when it arrived - spotless - and the fact that the seller roasts his own coffee and has about 6 different kinds of coffee machines as seems to know about coffee). But providing that he did not clean it, that would still give very little surface area for milk film to form.(and would have resulted in a low water flow rate with the wand being clogged - which is not the case).

Saying all that, I have run about 20+ tanks of water through the wand, descaled it 2 times and I am still getting these rubbery thin flakes (for lack of a better word). So I can't figure what is happening. I assume it isn't the teflon problem from the post by Mark Prince, and that the Silvias did not have a teflon lined boiler just the Rialtos. So I can not think of another cause. Is there something else in the sivia that would be along he steam wand line that could be breaking down and coming out (since it doesn't come out of the group head). Suggestions welcomed.

[EspressoObsessed]

Today I found the same flakes coming off the tip of my Silvia when I removed it for cleaning. I have had these regularly. I believe they relate to the Americanos I make since I drop the wand into the shot to add water to the drink. The coffee dries on the bottom of the tip, out of sight unless you unscrew it from the wand. They are very adherent and do not come off without scrubbing or soaking, which may be why you see them when cleaning your machine.

If you are adventurous, try putting a flake in your mouth. I bet it will taste like coffee. Do you know how physicians used to diagnose diabetes? It involved a urine sample. Use your imagination!

I'll stop now.

[tcampbells]

Yes, the taste test always seemed to be the standard method. To be honest I have not put them in my mouth. Call it strange, but it just seemed better to not do that. But I guess that is an idea.

Although I do my americanos differently. Usually I pour hotwater into the cup first then pull the shot on top of it, so that the creme stay, as well as preventing the possibility of too hot water "burning" the espresso. It is possible the previous owner done exactly as you did, so you might be on to something. Thanks a lot for the suggestion and the possible cause as that seems very logical.