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Brewing ratios for espresso beverages - Page 5

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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by another_jim on Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:41 pm

jmvdigital wrote:I'm still a bit confused by this chart.

Assuming that you use the "average" amount of coffee for each (16gr, double), the only other variables are grind and time. Now, does that mean that if I want to pull a lungo, I use the same amount of coffee and grind for a regular espresso, but just let it over-extract and blonde for a while to get the higher shot volume? Are we not paying attention to the extraction point (i.e., using blonding to signal stop of pull) when producing these variations, and more worried about volume (i.e., ristretto under-extracted and a lungo over-extracted)?

Mostly, a finer grind yields a longer time, smaller volume shot and a coarser grind a shorter time, larger volume shot, before blonding occurs. This is just brute observation.
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by AndyS on Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:22 pm

jmvdigital wrote:does that mean that if I want to pull a lungo, I use the same amount of coffee and grind for a regular espresso, but just let it over-extract and blonde for a while to get the higher shot volume?


Great question; I'm not really sure of the answer.

I've never been convinced that a little blonding is as bad as some people say. To me, the blond extract at the end of a shot has a mild creosote-like flavor, and it's obviously a dilutant. But if someone has a taste for lungos, I guess those factors don't bother them.

As far as grind goes, I think a coarser, fast-flowing shot is what you want. A slow shot is probably going to extract more bitterness, and you already have that with the creosote.
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by jmvdigital on Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:06 pm

No one else has anything to add? (No offense Andy :) )
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Definition space

Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by CafSuperCharged on Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:34 am

I like Andy's table and welcome it.

To the forum:
- do you feel these definitions conform to the Italian ideal of espresso, at least for the part they defined?
- Andy tried to indicate some standard w.r.t. coffee, machine and pressure, however it would be nice to work extraction time into the table or a graph representation as well
- with drink volume and brewing ratio, probably you will vary grinder setting significantly - a relative indication of the setting would add value as well

As we are all searching for the divine coffee in this multi-attribute optimization space, the next interesting thing would be if it were possible to relate faults to these graphs/tables.
E.g. "blonde", "thin crema", "large crema bubbles", "acidity" or "bitterness" would have places in this optimization space (away from the optimum space).

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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by Theodore on Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:06 pm

Excuse me, but what about the time of extraction? If for example I want to have a ristretto, should I have a extraction time of 25sec also, besides the volume will be so little?
So, I have to tweak the grinder to grind finer.
Am I right?
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by micki on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:21 am

Theodore wrote:Excuse me, but what about the time of extraction? If for example I want to have a ristretto, should I have a extraction time of 25sec also, besides the volume will be so little?
So, I have to tweak the grinder to grind finer.
Am I right?


Yes, you are right. Some may want to change the extraction time slightly ("the Golden rule") when changing the volume, but I'll go for approx. the same time, ristretto or normal (I never do lungos, but they should keep the same time too)

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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by cgfan on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:11 am

AndyS: Very late getting in on this post, but excellent idea! I only wish I had stumbled upon this before. I love your idea of the Brewing Ratio!

As a home baker I frequently use a very similar term called baker's percent, which is the relative weight of various ingredients to that of the flour. By understanding various bread formulas based upon their baker's percent, one can immediately appreciate differences in hydration, yeast, salt, or any number of ingredients without having to do any calculations. (Many bread formulas are simply published in baker's percent...) The system, being essentially normalized, allows for the direct comparison of vastly different styles of bread.

In the same way I can see your idea as doing the same for coffee. It already has provoked quite a bit of discussion on the basic (water+coffee) drinks; now add-in milk, foam, and perhaps even sweeteners (god forbid!), and imagine what an explosion of discussion that can generate. (Which I see as all good...) With your BR numbers we now have a "scale invariant" means to approach the discussion.

    Forgive a small diversion, and perhaps proposal/consideration, here. Most reader's can simply skip this part!

    There's an interesting difference in the baker's percent system vs. the one you propose. Perhaps rev. 2.0 of your brewing ratio might consider redefining the percentages in a similar manner?

    In the baker's percent system, the percentage shows each ingredient as a ratio of the total flour weight, so it not a true percentage in the sense that it does not represent the percentage of the part vs. the whole. Thus flour weight (read dry coffee weight) will always be 100%. This actually ends-up being very convenient, though not immediately being the most intuitive choice. The value of doing it this way becomes particularly apparent when evaluating multiple-ingredient "recipes" (read multiple-ingredient drinks).

    If we applied this approach to your concept the coffee will always be the 100% ingredient, and all other ingredients (e.g. water) will be relative to the dry coffee weight. Since the coffee will always be represented by a value of 100% "barista's" percent, any single or multiple combination of ingredients can immediately be appreciated with respect to the dry coffee weight via simple addition of their "barista's" percent - no division is required as in a conventional percent system.

    For instance in a milk-based espresso drink one would simply calculate: barista's % water + barista's percent milk. In the traditional system one would have to calculate (% water + % milk)/%coffee.

    Since all ingredients are always normalized with respect to the coffee (flour), all constituent ingredients just simply add without losing the "meaning" of the "barista's" percent, which is the ratio of the ingredient with respect to the coffee...

    Also one often characterizes breads by their (baker's) percent water (hydration), yeast, salt, etc. This works well even across vary different styles of bread. The same would hold true for espresso drinks, in all of the various forms it now is found on the street. From the Char$'s Frappucino (argggh!) to the 3rd wave cafe's ristretto, they can all be understood, or at least contrasted, by their "barista's" percent of water, milk, or wet ingredients, or by their "barista's" percent of sweetener.

    Another advantage is that since one knows (at least in principle) up front the dry weight of the coffee but not necessarily the total weight of the drink they will eventually pull and build, the "barista's" percent can easily be measured for every component as the drink is being built. (To do this in standard percent one would have to "know" the total drink weight before it is even built!) This requires a simple digital scale with a tare and counting function. (I frequently do the same for my breads where I will first always determine up front how much total flour I will use...)

    This is done by simply weighing the coffee (I actually pre-dose all of my coffee right after roasting in tiny single-shot tuperware-like containers) and then switching to counting mode, normalizing the beans weight to a count of 100 "pieces". Thereafter all weights will automatically be in "barista's" percent. The nice part is that the tare function will continue to work, so one just tares the scale before each ingredient is added and simply reads-off each ingredient directly in "barista's" percent as the drink is built-up...


So now how to add the variable of extraction time? Now that we have normalized the water and coffee weights, they no longer have to take "2 dimensions" of an x-y chart, but rather just 1, the BR number. So the second dimension/axis can be freed up to represent the extraction time.

I can now picture a map wherein shaded areas are drawn out on such a field of BR versus extraction time, sort of a topological map of sorts, except that in this "map" the peaks will be the "sweet spots" for the respective drink, the mountains would be the variations in the respective drink as it is practiced from cafe to cafe, barista to barista, and the "elevation lines" would be degrading levels of quality.

So each drink type will be a sort of "mountain", and each "mountain" will probably have a ridge line whose "verticality" (assuming BR is on the X-horizontal axis and extraction time on the Y-vertical axis) represents the particular drink's relative resistance to degradation with respect to the effects of extraction time. (I'd expect these ridge-lines to tilt /-way vs. \-way, indicating that a higher BR [more coffee; less water] can somewhat compensate for a higher extraction time...)

Furthermore drinks that are very similar (i.e.: drinks that are often debated) will have shallow valleys between their respective mountains, while very different drinks (i.e.: drinks that are not easily confused) will have very deep valleys between them.

No doubt every single person will draw up such a map quite differently due to it's subjective nature, but perhaps some generalities can still emerge from map to map?

Will have to put together a sample/illustrative plot when I find the time...
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by AndyS on Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:30 am

Hi cgfan, thanks very much for your thoughtful post. Right now, I can only make a few comments, but I will think more about what you said later.

1. I tried to keep this brew ratio thing simple -- REAL simple. And even at that, there are only a tiny handful of people who ever mention using it. And because there hasn't been much discussion about it, I haven't put any energy into developing the concepts further. I'm glad people like you have thought it out more.

2. I never considered the ratio approach to help define more complex types of drinks -- probably because of late I don't make anything other than straight coffee! But still, I find your suggestions very interesting. One thing about making coffee that is different from making bread is that only ~20% of the coffee in your recipe actually ends up in the cup. The rest stays in the grounds (and the grounds themselves retain a significant amount of the water that went into the brewer). So in practice, making coffee according to a recipe is a little more complex than the two-ingredient formula implies (if it was simple we probably wouldn't need home-barista.com!)

3. As you know, lots of people have criticized the brew ratio concept because it doesn't include the time factor. But even if you include time, differences in basket geometry, preinfusion, grind requirements, etc, etc, will never allow one to completely define the beverage. So I think it's more useful just to stick with the basic coffee/water ratio and acknowledge that all the other variables may or may not be significant in any particular case.
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by narc on Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:24 pm

AndyS, the direct, simple of your brew ratio concept are its strength. IMHO it is one of the better objective description of an extraction. Considering different ramp up profiles, pressure profiles during extraction, pressure range during extraction ideal preinfusion time and total extraction time needs to be tweaked to the machine.
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by erics on Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:18 pm

You keep giving people ideas, Andy.

http://www.asic-cafe.org/htm/CSA/...tem.php?ItemID=255
Skol,

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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by Matthew Brinski on Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:37 pm

erics wrote:You keep giving people ideas, Andy.



No doubt.

He needs to collect residuals.
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by AndyS on Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:59 pm

erics wrote:http://www.asic-cafe.org/htm/CSA/alert_item.php?ItemID=255


Lots of interesting papers on that site. But I guess it cost 200 Euros to get access to them. :-(
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by AndyS on Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:01 pm

narc wrote:Considering different ramp up profiles, pressure profiles during extraction, pressure range during extraction, ideal preinfusion time and total extraction time needs to be tweaked to the machine.


I agree 100%!
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Link to "Brewing ratios for espresso beverages"by cgfan on Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:43 pm

Andy S: Despite my earlier post (http://www.home-barista.com/forums/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402-80.html#73563), I agree 100% re. keeping things simple. Your proposal for using normalized brew ratios, though it looks at only one aspect of what defines an espresso shot, is nevertheless a great contribution to the vocabulary, and its very simplicity is indeed its main conceptual strength. To add other parameters such as brew times or temps can never really, as you so correctly say, completely define the shot.

The act of pulling an espresso can either be made into an act so complicated, with it's various brew temps, boiler pressures, tamping pressures, degree of grind, degree of roast, distribution techniques, etc. to attend to, that taking a completely "left brain" approach is bound to convince one that pulling a good shot is simply not possible. (Much like trying to teach someone how to tie a necktie over the phone...) On the other hand to take a completely "right brain" approach, that is to be guided by one's sensory experience from the cup alone, is not likely to lead one in the correct direction either.

Rather by looking at pulling an espresso as an act of craft, neither 100% art, nor 100% science, seems to me to strike an appropriate balance. And in this regard your brew ratio concept can help us "declutter" ever so slightly the various parameters that we may otherwise attend to, by reducing the combination of the dose, and the volume of extraction, into a single normalized parameter.
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