Breville 800ESXL: Sorry, Pitiful Waster of Money

[Mortimer]

I'm sorry for what all those television tattoo shows did for tattooing and the tattoo persona. I'm sorry for what all those Harley shows did for the Harley persona. Same with Rick Warren and the church, internet poker, etc etc.

And, likewise, I'm sorry for what I have done to coffee making.

With no research whatsoever, I go to Bed, Bath & Beyond. You all know the story. At least I didn't buy the absolute cheapest grinder they had, I got the most expensive one, which apparently, to anyone who knows squat, is still cheap.

So here I am, quick watery shots, no crema, and after a hundred YouTube videos, am embarrassed at what I've done. I experimented with the grind, the dose, the tamp, and I still cannot seem to pull a shot that takes more than 15 seconds, much less twenty. NOW, only now, I see a ton of bad reviews for my Breville 800esxl.

Thing is, I have not drank a lot of coffee, and have no comparisons whatsoever. So even if I pulled a shot remotely close to what I read or see as "good", it might taste like crap.

I have my receipt, and am prepared to humble myself, unless any of you take pity and walk me through trying to pull a decent shot.

Taste will come I figure.

Any takers?

[cannonfodder]

We have all been there. Even the most modest of machines can usually pull something that at least resembles a shot of espresso. What kind of grinder did you get? Did you happen to get a properly fitted tamper and even more important what kind of coffee are you using? When I started playing I would go to WS and get cans of Illy before I knew better.

[atrueblood]

Haha, I am right there with you! I'm one step behind though, I went with the Breville Cafe-Roma... I to feel pretty depressed since I did not do adequate research before my purchase. It would have helped to find this site before I bought it. I have to make do with it right now though. The wife says so.

However, I do have some hope of improving what I have since I found out I have the option of either get a new filter basket, or cutting the bottom layer of my basket to de-pressurize it. Supposedly that will help. You might look into that, I'm going to try to find someone who can cut it off tomorrow. Good luck!

Alek

[scalla]

... even if I pulled a shot remotely close to what I read or see as "good", it might taste like crap.

Likely not.

Use what you learn here to make the most of the equipment you have and to plan your upgrades. Bueno Suerte.

[cafeIKE]

A pal who had a similar setup depressurized his PF.
Long story short, after a frustrating few months, he came over for a side by side with the Vibiemme and MC4. His first couple of pulls convinced him the gear was hopeless. Sorry.

[highstrings]

Save yourself the hassle and pleeeeaaassee take it back I went through 4 of those units in a year, breaking down with various problems.

I then found this site and invested (keyword) in an Quickmill Andreja espresso machine.... yes over 3x the price but ohhh so nice.

Check around for used machine to save some bucks.

If you keep the Breville I still have some portafilter baskets laying around.

[uscfroadie]

I have that same machine, purchased about 4 years ago - used for the first three; now sitting at my girlfriends house as a decorative piece. Similar to highstrings experience, I had it fail on me once - would not power up. Their customer service sent me a brand new machine as a replacement....Should have sold it then, but at that time, I didn't know better.

Jump to this time one year ago. I'm in Iraq drinking the crappiest coffee I've ever had in my life, purchased from the local coffee shop, Green Beans. They've got nice equipment (La Spaziale 3-group with two adequate grinders (LaPavoni, and not sure of the other one), but the grind is not fine enough, and the beans are stale. After frequenting them daily, I decided life was too short to drink crap coffee...I wanted to have daily the stuff I would get while riding my bicycle all around France and Italy, so I started searching and found this haven - Home-Barista.

After about a month or so of serious research I decided on a QuickMill Alexia w/PID and a Mazzer Mini, which were waiting for me when I returned home in late November. Oh baby, I got very little sleep the first few weeks I was back. Within a short time after following Dave's (cannonfodder) thread on dialing in a new espresso machine, I was pulling great shots (my standards at that time) with illy coffee . And within a week I had freshly roasted coffee and was blown away by the difference. Since then, I haven't looked back at all. Yes, it was a bit of an investment, but it is SO worth it!

Here's a way to rationalize your purchase, should you decide to dive in. You're drinking sub-par coffee now, so if given the option, would you pay $3 a day to drink great coffee? If so, $3/day over a year comes out to almost $1100 - the price of a Rocky/Silvia combo w/accessories. Over two years you'll have plenty to spring for a QM Anita/Mazzer Mini or the like. Over three years....well, you get the idea.

So, to make a long story short, return the machine. In the long run, you'll be much happier. Although you can make modifications to it to get better coffee, it'll never be worth the trouble. Take the $$ and use it as an investment towards a set-up you will use for years to come. As many folks will advise, if you are limited on funds, start with a great grinder and fresh beans; use a regular coffee machine if you must to start while you save up for the machine.

Good luck, and keep us posted on the outcome.

[Mortimer]

Ahhh, sympathy, or at least empathy. Thank you.

After my post, I searched around and saw several times, the issue with pressurized filter baskets. Heck, I thought ALL espresso machines used "pressure"; that it was the pressure inside the basket, along with the density of the puck, that even made an espresso possible. Does this mean that those nicer machines use some kind of "free flow", and if so, might this 20-30 second pull be limited to them?

I bought the Cusinart http://www.cuisinart.com/catalog/product.php?product_id=306&item_id=415&cat_id=3 Supreme Grind Automatic Burr Mill. I'm using the finest setting, which seemed to me to be the most I could do given the short pull. I'm using a 7g scoop (which seems kind of silly to classify a scoop by weight given variance in grind). It's also stamped 1 1/2 tbs. If I use more, I think I burn the coffee.

The bean I bought is Hills Bros Espresso from my local grocery - out of the hopper. I thought it would be fresher than the vacuum bag Starbucks.

I'm still using the plastic tamper that came with the Breville, and wish I had a non-digital bathroom scale so I could see what 30lbs felt like. I want a better one, mainly because it appears easier to make a level puck with a tamp that has some kind of bevel. Most times is hard to keep that tiny ridge from appearing around the inside of my filter.

On a good note, the best I can muster at this point, the short pull does taste good. Maybe I'll take a video and you guys can diagnose my ills (beyond the machine).

[alsterlingcafe]

You fess'd up to.......

I bought the Cusinart http://www.cuisinart.com/catalog/product.php?product_id=306&item_id=415&cat_id=3 Supreme Grind Automatic Burr Mill. I'm using the finest setting, which seemed to me to be the most I could do given the short pull. I'm using a 7g scoop (which seems kind of silly to classify a scoop by weight given variance in grind). It's also stamped 1 1/2 tbs. If I use more, I think I burn the coffee.

About 3 years ago, I was like that gal in the TV commercial running out of the discount store like she pulled a bank job; her husband waiting for her in the parking lot with the engine running. She "got such a good deal" that she figured the store screwed up with their price! So, like her, I went to Costco and found the "Cuisinart Supreme Grind", listing for $80, but only $30........and the box graphics touted "BURR GRINDER." Well, I found out........ you get what you pay for.

I called Whole Latte Love, who had just sent me my Expobar Pulser espresso machine, told them I couldn't pull a decent shot, and they quickly shared that the Cuisinart would never grind fine enough for espresso......... and they easily convinced me to buy the Gaggia MDF; a good entry level grinder.

I suppose this, like everyone here, falls under the "BEAN there, done that" category. You're in very good company. Take it all back, if you can, and start over, now that you know where to come for guidance.

Best of luck, Al

[uscfroadie]

Jeff,

Sorry if I was too direct and you were offended.

In reading your last post I have to point out the first flaw...and you are not alone here. No beans you purchase from your local grocery store will be fresh. In fact, the Starbucks in a bag will be fresher than the Hill Bros you picked up, but both are well past their prime.

To really see the best your current setup can provide, call one of the coffee vendors that sponsor this site and order up fresh coffee. Many of them roast the day after you place your order and mail out your shipment the following day. Take Intelligentsia...if you place an order today they will roast it tomorrow morning and have it on its way to you tomorrow evening. They'll get to you so quickly you'll need to give them a few days to de-gas, but by next Wednesday you could be experiencing the best coffee you'll ever achieve out of your current setup.

As for the plastic tamper (more like a beefy plastic tamper/coffee scoop), it'll suffice for now since your grinder will most likely not be able to grind fine enough to choke your machine. Ensure your machine is on and has been on long enough to warm up the portafilter (about 10 minutes). Anything more and you really aren't going to see a difference since the portafilter is made out of aluminum (I think) and cools quite rapidly.

- Grind and distribute the coffee, distributing it evenly in the tiny portafilter.
- Use the straight edge of the tamper/scoop thingy to discard any coffee above the top of the portafilter.
- Place the tamper portion on top of the coffee and press down evenly until the tamper portion bottoms out against the top of the edge of the portafilter. This will create enough *headspace* so as to not have your puck touch the group head screen.
- Lock and load, turn the switch.
- Stop the shot once you have about 1.5 ounces. Any more than that and you are over-extracting for sure since the portafilter really does not hold much coffee.

I followed these procedures on my old machine just for grins and actually got a few decent shots, but I choked the machine on the first three attempts. With no 3-way valve to relieve the pressure, choking this machine results in one heck of a mess when you unlock the portafilter (read - portafilter sneeze!). You will not run into this unless you replace your grinder.

Once you are able to try this with fresh beans you can determine if you really want to stick with this machine/grinder combo or move onto something a bit more capable. At least then you will have an educated decision on whether or not this will suffice for you.

Best of luck, and keep us posted.

[cafeIKE]

The Cost of Grinder Frugality from our own Randy G.'s EspressoMyEspresso.

I bought one of those for a 'road' press grinder. Utter garbage. Returned.

[Mortimer]

WOW. So as fine as it seems to me, in my ignorance, it's not fine enough?
Maybe I can buy some cheap pre-ground and see what I'm aiming for?
If that's possible, any suggestions?

Loosely fill the portafilter to the brim before packing?
I've seen that on some of the You Tube videos, but it's got to be more than the 7-11g I read about. A finer grind would only amplify that disparity it seems.

Oh no BTW, Im am in no way offended. On the contrary, appreciative.

I'm still holding out that, at my level of taste/experience, I can get some yah yah out of this machine. Focusing on the bean and burr is actually a relief.

[cafeIKE]

Espresso. No yah yah

[Randy G.]

The Cuisinart grinder (Queasy-nart?) that CafeIKE referenced is good for flaxseed and possibly for Aeropress use. Pretty useless for much of anything else.

The espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder. A reasonable cost range for an electric grinder that will make your efforts fruitful will run at least $250 or so new. If the budget is a consideration, look for a quality hand grinder. Still, those sell for around $75 or so new, and ask around for opinions as the quality of hand grinders (particularly for espresso use) will vary widely.

To put things into perspective, I have an $8 espresso machine (see Chapter 80 on my website) that has been used to make good espresso when paired with a good grinder. I also have a $1500 espresso machine that I would not even attempt to get good espresso from using that Cuisinart grinder-- it would be a waste of coffee beans to even try..

[DigMe]

WOW. So as fine as it seems to me, in my ignorance, it's not fine enough?
Maybe I can buy some cheap pre-ground and see what I'm aiming for?
If that's possible, any suggestions?

I suggest just skipping the preground, taking that grinder back ASAP and getting a decent grinder. It's not that the Cuisinart is necessarily not grinding fine enough but that it doesn't even have real burrs that slice the beans into nice sized particles..it actually uses "pseudo-burrs" that pulverize the beans into pieces that are poorly shaped for espresso grinding.

You can search the "Espresso Grinders" forum here for your cheapest possible GOOD solution for espresso grinding.

To pull an excellent shot of espresso you need the following: capable grinder, freshly roasted quality beans, skill (which comes with practice), a decent machine with a heavy brass portafilter and good water. So far you definitely don't seem to have the grinder, beans or machine and since you're new to this you probably don't have the skill either. Getting the grinder, beans and machine will allow you to develop the skill. You don't have to spend 2 grand to get those. You can't get a passable setup for under $500. If I were in your shoes with 20/20 hindsight I'd get a used Mazzer Super Jolly from Ebay, a Gaggia Espresso machine and some beans from Terroir, Counter Culture, Intelligentsia, etc... Poke around Ebay and the For Sale forum at Coffeegeek.com and you might find an excellent deal. Oh and might as well get a heavy tamper that fits your machine too.

Best of luck.

bc

[Mortimer]

Well, I've spent a few hours wandering this site now. I've fallen off the dingy in the deepest part of the ocean.

I'm going to keep that Breville just so I can look back on it later.

Tonight, I just may dream of Elektra's, VBM DS's and Super Jolly's. I've got a plan man, to make my wife a coffee lover, so I can get myself some hardware.

I went fly fishing once, and it wasn't long before I was studying bugs and owned half of Orvis.
I suspect espresso might get the best of me too.

Is this OCD? What do they prescribe for that anyway?

Anyway, you guys have been great. Thank you all.

[peacecup]

If you are committed to keep the machine for a while, you may want to try a good hand grinder. As mentioned, the quality of these may vary, but they can occasionally be had for <$50. Used to be a lot less, but that's progress.

Anyway, good hand grinders are the only low-cost alternative for espresso grinding.

As a temporary solution you can try "double tamping" - this is filling the basket 1/2 way, tamping, the filling and tamping again. This will increase the pressure. Be careful not to stall the machine completely and damage the pump.

You could try a little (a day's worth) pre-ground espresso from a local coffee shop if you knew it was freshly roasted and ground at the time you bought it.

PC

[Mortimer]

Maybe one has to go through their own lessons, experience their own learning curve, when it comes to coffee and machines? Maybe, without such, one would not build a proper appreciation. Maybe, there's just too much subjectivity on the matter.

Anyway, the Breville is still running. Between my wife and I, I pull at least four cups a day out of the thing - latte's for her and cappuccino's for me. I bought a cheap tamper, some Intelligentsia Black Cat espresso Blend, and am making a decent cup. In comes the subjectivity.

I recant the "sorry, pitiful waster of money" statement. It had to be done, and I have less and less regret. The content don't do a lot of complaining, and there are a lot of purists out there, suffice to say; each of whom have their own learning experience.

So, for what's it worth, if you just bought a Breville 800ESXL, congrats and welcome to coffee 101.

Jeff

[doubleOsoul]

Loved the original post and felt instant empathy. RUN that Breville back to the store and never speak of it again. I thought I'd grab a 'filler' machine while I was waiting on my machine repairs and there was the
Breville looking all sweet and budget conscience -sort of. Thank goodness I was able to return it in 30 days...but check this out! When I sent it back (to QVC - where I bought it) I accidently sent it to a Breville distribution center here in California and they tried to keep it. I was told that they never received it. When I revealed that I had proof via UPS and that my lawyer would contact them next, it was magically found and sent to QVC. What a company!