Bitter Bitter Espresso (Gaggia Espresso and Black Cat)

[JoesCup]

Here's my setup:

Cunill Tranquilo
Gaggia Espresso
Intelligentsia Black Cat
Bodum Double Wall Shot Glasses

I don't have any scales or anything yet.

I'm using the double basket. I fill with a yogurt funnel and knock, level, and tamp. Tamping I do the whole North East South West thing. I have warmed my group thoroughly, tried a blank shot first, tried with the boiler on and off. I always get a bitter espresso. If I have the basket at this level, the PF barely screws on. I get loads of crema, complete with the quiness effect, but the espresso is undrinkably bitter.

I have some city roast that I will try next, but I think it goes beyond just the black cat is a fairly "well roasted" variety.

If I fill the basket less, I get just a thin layer of crema and still bitter.

Am I overtamping? Grind finer or coarser? Dosage? I can make some pictures and videos of need be

[bolerba]

I am in the same boat. I have a Rocky, Gaggia Baby, do everything you said, and still get what I consider bitter espresso. someone help...

[appa]

I have a Carezza, and as a beginner myself, i can feel your pain

A common reason for the bitterness is that the water is too hot
when you pull the shot, (assuming everything else is ok)

whats made the biggest difference for me
is to run 1oz of water right before putting in the porta filter and pulling
the shot. This has made my shots alot more consistent.

turn on the coffee button, run an 1oz water, turn off coffee button,
put in portalfilter, then pull the shot...

This "cooling flush" cools things down just enough to avoid bitterness,
but not too much that you get a sour taste because the water is too
cold.

I think the internals of the Gaggia Espresso and the Carezza are close
enough for this to be relevant to you. You may need to pull slightly
more or less water, but not much...

Good Luck

[JoesCup]

I've already tried cooling flushes...I'm still getting bitter shots

[appa]

Here are other things I can think of that may help with your type of machine

1) Do you have the portafilter in the group when pre-heating?

2) you may be tamping too hard. dont know much about the grinder you
have or the coffee you are using, But with my local roasters blend, ive learned
that i dont need to tamp that hard, I would say ~10 lbs or so, assuming your
trying one of the different variants of the "golden rule". I think for a beginner,
its easier to tamp lighter, cos any unevenness in the tamps is less
exaggerated, and its easier to be consistent with a lighter tamp than a heavier
one. then you can focus a bit more on the grind

3) Can you unscrew the "double pourer" piece from you portafilter? If
you can, do that. It is easier to tell when the shot goes blond, and you need
to stop pulling. Too much blond stuff and the shot will go bitter..The rough rule
of thumb ive been using to define blonding is that i dont see anymore darker
streaks mixed with the lighter streaks. Its a bit harder to tell with the double pourer,
especially im the part of the kitchen where i keep my Carezza anyway (not enough light)

Good Luck

[JoesCup]

So I swapped in a city roast, went for a finer grind with a lighter tamp. It was definitely more drinkable, but no crema to speak of. But these beans are a little older. I ran out of the black cat so a bunch of variables did change. I have a .01 gram scale on the way along with a better tamp and graduated shot glass. This should at least take some more of the variability out. At first things come out very dark, then they go honey-like. I'm not seeing a discernible drift towards blonding during my pull.

[HB]

At first things come out very dark, then they go honey-like. I'm not seeing a discernible drift towards blonding during my pull.

Sudden color shifts usually mean channeling. Do you have a bottomless portafilter and video you could post?

[bainesy]

Is this a new machine you're using? If not, is it clean? Old coffee oils can easily build up behind the shower screen and give off a rancid, bitter taste (a taste that is all too familiar from umpteen commercial outlets with poor cleaning regimes).

[JoesCup]

It is a newish machine. I don't have a bottomless pf...nor the cash to drop on one just yet... maybe somebody will love me soon

One thing I noticed, the machine drips quite a bit when just the boiler is on... is this normal for a machine (without 3 way solenoid)? I'm wondering if maybe my machine is running too hot?

[another_jim]

That's not good. There's a small springloaded valve just over the shower screen that seals off the flow until the pump turns off -- it's not seated right.

[TimEggers]

If your shot is starting dark (often black) try letting that go into the drip tray, then insert your glass just as you see the stripping appear. This is known as a dump start and can I bet improve your shot. The harsh bitters are most likely coming from that first little bit if black flow. I used to get the same thing with a certain coffee I used to make. Have you tried a slightly coarser grind?

And if you ask me a cooling flush of some sort (I run an extremely long one at 6+ ounces) should be standard practice on the entry level Gaggias. The mighty little Gaggias have no problem heating up!

As far as the dripping, I wonder if it isn't the little spring loaded shut of valve with a weak spring. You can get to by removing the dispersion screen (single screw in the middle). Then remove the round metal disk (two Allen head screws). Then the valve will be the 12mm nut in the middle. I use a ratchet wrench and 12mm socket.

However before you do that, take the group apart and clean in it (I like a Cafiza soak for the shower screen, round metal disk and all the screws). Then run some Cleancaf through the machine. Routine maintenance is a must. It could also be a speck of dirt (like a calcium deposit) stuck in the spring of the valve. Try a good cleaning, and then remove the valve if you need too. It may also just be a weak spring that needs replaced.

[JoesCup]

hmm, I think I am going to return the machine then... Now the question is do I decide that the gaggia isn't good enough and stick with it...or do I sell some body parts to get a better machine? I have ~150-175 in the gaggia... I'd probably spend another $20-30 fixing stuff like the steam wand eventually... Should I try to jump on a used silvia or something with a little more control? I understand that the barista has much more to do with things than the machine, but that'd be nice. I've seen silvias go for $350 with PID on the used market..... So it would be roughly a $150-200 "upgrade" for me. Which is a lot of beans.... I could also move to the various solis machines as well...

[forgetcolor]

First, read these threads, as they have lots of info that address problems like yours.

Channeling and Distribution Frustration
Undrinkable espresso and not sure what to try next

Then I second Tim's and other's suggestions for a cooling flush. Surest way to a non-bitter shot is give it a long cooling flush, say 4-6 oz. The heat light should go off either before you finish the flush or most likely right after. Then load the PF, wait for the light to come on and start. This should give you a less bitter shot.

A start dump will also help, but I found that it removes too much flavor for me.

Then there's the usual dose, distribution, tamp. I've tried lots of variations on the three. Currently I use WDT, distribute to the rim, tamp 30 lbs, no pressure polish, and go.

It's not the best espresso I've ever had, but it's better than my old usual cafe already.

Hang in there---it can be frustrating, but it will come.

[JoesCup]

For now, I just need to decide if I want to stick with gaggia, or sell it and get a Silvia/SL70/whatever I can find for cheapish. I am disappointed in the steaming for the gaggia... The leak from mine is making it really hard to check the puck since it makes things sloppy, so it definitely is getting returned, just whether I will swap for a Solis or Silvia or whatever the bright minds here come up with From the threads I have read here/on alt.coffee/other boards it seems like the gaggias walk a fine line between bitter and sour when using cooling flushes. Just really not sure where to go from here..

[TimEggers]

I may be wrong, but I would suspect that the leaking valve relieves pressure from the boiler and this would reduce the steaming power.

I can tell you my Gaggia Coffee (same internals as your machine) has plenty of steaming power to accompany any amount espresso the machine can make at any one time, no doubt.

I wouldn't judge the Gaggias as a whole until you A) get yours fixed or B) get it replaced. When properly working the entry level Gaggias are capable machines.

A good cleaning may be all you need. As suggested above try that, and if that doesn't help simply remove the spring valve and make sure it's clean, it's easy to do and you could potentially solve all your problems in about 10 minutes. There may just be a particle between the little ball and where it seals. Beats the heck out of getting a new machine when you may not have too...

Good Luck!

[JoesCup]

I may be wrong, but I would suspect that the leaking valve relieves pressure from the boiler and this would reduce the steaming power.

I can tell you my Gaggia Coffee (same internals as your machine) has plenty of steaming power to accompany any amount espresso the machine can make at any one time, no doubt.

I wouldn't judge the Gaggias as a whole until you A) get yours fixed or B) get it replaced. When properly working the entry level Gaggias are capable machines.

A good cleaning may be all you need. As suggested above try that, and if that doesn't help simply remove the spring valve and make sure it's clean, it's easy to do and you could potentially solve all your problems in about 10 minutes. There may just be a particle between the little ball and where it seals. Beats the heck out of getting a new machine when you may not have too...

Good Luck!

I just purchased this (new), and it has been doing it since I got it... So I am not too keen on potentially voiding the warranty/etc... just yet.

The big problem I have is the steaming wand. It's either the plastic sleeve, an open hole, or replace it with a whole different wand. That said, it is tempting to try upgrading to something I won't have to futz with to get a good shot out of....

[TimEggers]

I just purchased this (new), and it has been doing it since I got it... So I am not too keen on potentially voiding the warranty/etc... just yet.

Then it seems to me you should contact the seller for a replacement/repair.

[jesawdy]

I understand that the barista has much more to do with things than the machine, but that'd be nice. I've seen silvias go for $350 with PID on the used market.....

If you can find a PIDd Silvia at that price, that might be a good option. IIRC, I've seen used Silvias (no PID) at that price and Silvias with PID at closer to $500.

FYI - The Solis machine has a pressurized basket that you would need to replace.... and if you've invested in a tamper already, the Solis has a smaller basket, 53mm.

[JoesCup]

If you can find a PIDd Silvia at that price, that might be a good option. IIRC, I've seen used Silvias (no PID) at that price and Silvias with PID at closer to $500.

FYI - The Solis machine has a pressurized basket that you would need to replace.... and if you've invested in a tamper already, the Solis has a smaller basket, 53mm.

My tamper order hasn't shipped yet, so I could change it. It looks like $10 for non pressurized baskets for the Solis... the only downside is the smaller basket and no bottomless pfs available....

[cannonfodder]

The leak is bad and need addressed. Steam, that depends on what you are steaming. The froth aid attachment (that plastic housing) will give you foam with no effort but will not produce microfoam. I believe there is a replacement wand available from espressoparts.com. You should be able to steam a cappa with no issues (4-5oz of milk) but if you are trying for the big gulp 12oz milk drinks, she may run out of steam before you finish.

The surprising thing is how much fiddling you have to do to get good espresso from an entry level machine, the Silvia surfing regime is nuts. The prosumer HX machines are much easier to use but over twice the cost of the Gaggia.

You mentioned you had a tamper on order as well. Getting a good shot is very difficult if you do not have a properly sized tamper. I would hold off a final decision until you have a proper sized tamper and the group drip resolved. The machine will give you a decent shot but all the variables must align.