Best value lever espresso machine

[kramerica]

I'm looking for an espresso machine, that would give great results, but want to spend as least as possible.
I heard that lever machine is the way to go for that demand, and i have a couple of questions:

1. Is it true? The Europiccola costs about the same as the silvia (at least in my country), and I'm looking for better results than the silvia. Can I trust the Europiccola to do that (after a lot of practice of course)?

2. How come the Europiccola is not good for more than 2-3 cups in a row?

thanks a lot...

[mattwells]

This thread has some information you may find useful.

What happens with the Pavoni is the grouphead overheats as the hot water is drawn through it. When the group gets hot enough, it can't act as a heat sink to lower the brewing temperature to the proper level so the water temp remains too high effectively scorching the coffee as the shot is pulled. It is a very capable machine, but there are a lot of other options.

Where are you located (availability in your area may [and most likely will] be different than here in the states)?

As far as Silvia v. Lever Machine - a lot is personal preference.

[happytamper]

I have and use two La Pavonis, I find they work well and the overheat issue is not a problem if only once in a while you make more than three espressos. You can always cool the grouphead with a cool rag. I enjoy using the Europiccola the most, .8 litre tank, heats up fast and makes great espresso. The professional model, 1.6 litre, makes more espressos in a row but with the heat up issue is not really the better choice. Portafilter sneeze can also be tricky on the La Pavoni when making consecutive shots.

A lot to choose from in the lever machine category. Lots of opinions here on the forum, Only reason I started with La Pavonis was because they were the first machine I saw. I used to use the Professional ambassador model in my studio for four or five people but it was a hassle and found an old faema urania two group plumbed in machine to use there. A bit of overkill for four or five espressos but they all get made in no time and there is very little overheat issue.

As far as cost you can always find a good deal on an old Europiccola on ebay.

Good luck

[timo888]

I'm looking for an espresso machine, that would give great results, but want to spend as least as possible.
I heard that lever machine is the way to go for that demand, and i have a couple of questions:

1. Is it true? The Europiccola costs about the same as the silvia (at least in my country), and I'm looking for better results than the silvia. Can I trust the Europiccola to do that (after a lot of practice of course)?

2. How come the Europiccola is not good for more than 2-3 cups in a row?

For lever machines in the La Pavoni's price range (or less) take a look at the Ponte Vecchio Export and Ponte Vecchio Lusso.

The short answer to question #2 is this: water in an enclosed boiler is superheated in order to produce steam for milk-based espresso drinks. The water is much too hot for espresso and scorches the coffee making it terribly bitter and unpleasant; the excessively high temperature releases ugly flavors from the bean. Therefore, machine designers use a bell-shaped hunk of brass to absorb excess heat from the superheated water. (This bell-shaped piece of brass is part of an assemblage called the 'group'.) However, after a few shots of espresso, the brass becomes saturated with heat, which greatly reduces its ability to absorb the excess heat from the water.

If the group is bolted directly to the boiler, that direct connection also allows heat to be conducted from the boiler to the group.

The heat-sinking capacity of the group is a function primarily of its mass and surface area. The more massive groups with larger surface areas take longer to become heat-saturated. If the group is not bolted directly to the boiler, the group remains cooler and is better able to absorb heat from the water.

My personal opinion is that people exaggerate the difficulty of mastering a lever, especially spring-driven levers like the Ponte Vecchio. Once you learn how a few variables interact, you are on your way to making good espresso.

BUT YOU MUST PURCHASE A VERY GOOD STEPLESS BURR GRINDER OR A STEPPED BURR GRINDER WITH LOTS OF SETTINGS IN THE ESPRESSO RANGE. Unless you have tight control over the fineness of the grind --sometimes you need to grind coarser, sometimes more finely-- any good espresso machine will disappoint you, no matter how expensive it is and no matter if it is a lever machine or a rotary pump machine.

Regards
Timo

[kramerica]

First of all, thank you all for your comments..

I still can't make up my mind as to lever vs pump. Sadly, I can't afford two machines, and the variety I have around here (Israel) for lever machines is not nearly as large as pump machines. While we have all the pump machines i see at this forum, the lever choice is basically between many kinds of pavonis to elektras. It comes down to choosing between an Europiccola to the solis sl-70 or silvia.
I'm not worried at all from the learning curve and the hassle of the lever, i am worried from the overheating problem.
Also, I took into consideration the money i'd have to pay for the grinder.

The most important question for me I guess is:
How much time do I have to wait for the grouphead of the Europiccola to cool down before i can pull another double or two?

[happytamper]

Hi,

I make two or three doubles every morning consecutively. I know there is a overheat issue but it never seems to affects the espresso too much and I have been doing this for years. I had a pump machine prior and since I started using Lever machines I have sold the pump machines. The quality of the coffee is many times better in my opinion.

Also for the grinder you can buy a relatively inexpensive manual grinder like a Zassenhaus if they are available in Israel. The grind is perfect and adjustable.

Also the grind quality becomes more important on the elektra because it has a spring driven piston, on the pavoni the force exerted on the coffee is by your arm. More fun to learn on. And a bit more control. But each are great machines.

[timo888]

First of all, thank you all for your comments..

I still can't make up my mind as to lever vs pump. Sadly, I can't afford two machines, and the variety I have around here (Israel) for lever machines is not nearly as large as pump machines. While we have all the pump machines i see at this forum, the lever choice is basically between many kinds of pavonis to elektras. It comes down to choosing between an Europiccola to the solis sl-70 or silvia.
I'm not worried at all from the learning curve and the hassle of the lever, i am worried from the overheating problem.
Also, I took into consideration the money i'd have to pay for the grinder.

The most important question for me I guess is:
How much time do I have to wait for the grouphead of the Europiccola to cool down before i can pull another double or two?

Sorry to hear your choices are so limited there. Can you import from another country on the Mediterranean?

You can quickly cool a lever machine's group by holding the empty portafilter under cold running water (or dip it in ice water) and then lock it into place. Do this a couple of times. Or you can place a cold wet dishrag on the group till it becomes warm,; wring it out, and then repeat. These pproaches take but a minute or two. However, the machine would take quite a while to cool down if all you do is turn it off.

The overheating issue is not limited to lever machines, BTW. Any espresso machine that produces steam and brew water from the same pressurized boiler is subject to this overheating problem. Even the machines with two temperature settings in the boiler, one for steam, one for brew, keep the brew water under pressure and therefore at a much higher temperature than what is good for espresso. The Silvia will overheat after a series of shots too. An H-B member has reported a 12-degree F. upwards temperature creep (IIRC) over a series of shots on a Silvia.

Regards
Timo

[kramerica]

Actually, I can get any machine pretty easily from Italy or any country in Europe for that matter. The problem is warranty.
Its funny, espresso is amazingly popular around here, and you can get any kind of pump machine like I said, its just that lever machines aren't popular at all and very few people buy them for the purpose of making espresso (most just get them as a second machine and mainly because of the design).

If I understand correctly, the problem of overheating is not t o o serious, but can someone really tell me how long will it take to make about 4 double-shots cappas?
I drink strait espresso, but my guests usually don't.... I really want to get a pavoni, its relatively cheap, durable and from what i've heard makes great espresso.

[bill]

I'm not sure the Europiccola will make four doubles and steam milk without refilling the boiler. If it won't that will add significant time to the process. The Ambassador I used to have would do that but it had the same size boiler as the Professional. Hopefully some of the Europiccola owners will jump in here and give you a more definite answer.

[mattwells]

I'm not sure the Europiccola will make four doubles and steam milk without refilling the boiler. If it won't that will add significant time to the process. The Ambassador I used to have would do that but it had the same size boiler as the Professional. Hopefully some of the Europiccola owners will jump in here and give you a more definite answer.

I can't verify or deny this, but if that is the case you might want to look at one of the la pavoni professionals.

[timo888]

The La Pavoni marketing literature egregiously overstates the number of cups of espresso these machines can produce.

Model Europiccola allows 8 cups of espresso to be made consecutively. ... Model Professional allows 16 cups of espresso to be made consecutively.

Regards
Timo

P.S. Even when 'cup of espresso' is defined as 25ml. Perhaps there is wiggle room in the definition of 'consecutively'

[happytamper]

I'm not sure the Europiccola will make four doubles and steam milk without refilling the boiler. If it won't that will add significant time to the process. The Ambassador I used to have would do that but it had the same size boiler as the Professional. Hopefully some of the Europiccola owners will jump in here and give you a more definite answer.

Four doubles and steam would be a stretch for the europiccola. On the ambassador or professional it would work out but after each steam you will have super heated the water quite a bit and the next espresso will be quite hot. I use my La pavoni everyday and generally prepare two espressos sometimes with steamed soya milk. Never tried four but I am sure it would work out. Grouphead cooling would definitely be necessary after the second or third.

If your plans are to prepare four than a Zassenhaus manual grinder may be a but slow and you may want a electric like a Mazzer or Isomac.

[peacecup]

Lately I've been cooling the group between every shot on my Ponte Vecchio. I turn the machine off as soon as the pull is done, remove the PF, run it under cold water, and re-engage it while I grind for the next shot. Then I cool the group head with a damp sponge or towel. Its really no big deal, but it is necessary if I'm pulling more than 3-4 shots.

I use a hand grinder like a Zass - it takes less than a minute to grind for a 15-g double - you can decide if this is too slow or not. With an electric you could be grinding at the same time you are doing something else.

PC

[peacecup]

BTW, the PV Export could do four 1.5 oz. "doubles" without being refilled. I'm not sure how many more than that it could do. Refilling does take a minute or two, than the new water takes 5 or more minutes to come up to brew temperature.

PC

[prof_stack]

Last week I had to move the Sama Export while the unit was heated up. It dawned on me how I would have just gotten a really good burn if I had tried that on a LaPavoni (which all too easily moves on its own, anyway). The cover over the boiler on the Export may not be stylish but it does have benefits.

I agree with Peacecup about the # of shots. His grinder of choice is a KYM, also made in Germany. Good as the Zass, I believe.

[Dogshot]

I have 2 questions about the Export, and wonder if you would mind helping me out:

1) prof_stack - what colour describes your Sama? I see from the photos (in other threads) that it is light brown. Is this what PV now calls tobacco, or is it a NOS colour from the Good Coffee Co? I am interested in getting a darker brown cover.

2) have either you or Peacecup opened the cover on your Sama/PV Export? I assume that it has an adjustable p-stat - do you know what kind, or whether it is easily accessible?

3) Is it very easy to drain the boiler? How would you do it? (The machine would be for my cottage, so I would like to be able to drain the boiler when leaving it for a week or more).

Thanks,

Mark

[peacecup]

Mater adjustable pstat:




Seems reliable - Its been in daily use on mine for over a year.


The Export is very portable, and easy to drain - just open the cap (AFTER RELEASING PRESSURE!) and hold it upside down over the sink. DON'T FORGET TO REFILL BEFORE PLUGGING IN - the element can be damaged if the machine is accidentally turned on when empty.

For all its portability the Export is very stable while pulling shots. A combination of suction cup feet and the correct center of gravity allow one to pull shots with one hand without having the machine tip.

PC

[Dogshot]

It sounds like the perfect machine for my needs.

Thanks so much for your help, and all the pics/videos!

Mark

[peacecup]

As a matter of fact, I think Gene at Vanelis told me he has a Lusso at his place near Lake Tahoe, but the place may be heated year-round.

Do remember these are spring, and not manual, lever machines. The Pavonis are manual. Although I really love my Export I have never compared it to a Pavoni or other manual machine.

PC

[Dogshot]

Do remember these are spring, and not manual, lever machines. The Pavonis are manual. Although I really love my Export I have never compared it to a Pavoni or other manual machine. PC

Spring levers are where it's at! In fact, I think I heard that spring levers are the new dual-boilers .

Mark