Behmor 1600 Coffee Roaster - 1st Look - Page 3

[miKe mcKoffee]

1# FC in 17 minutes easing through 1st with good steady 1st and good pause before 2nd. Ready for roasting for comparisons prime time.

[Randy G.]

A couple of quick observations from what I have seen here- Unfortunately, the design of this roaster pretty much eliminates any data that would show actual bean temperature. Since the drum's ends are closed, and even Greg doesn't have wireless capability for temperature transmission (or does he? ) the temperature data gathered from the roasting chamber outside the drum isn't all that helpful other than to document the machine's ability to adjust itself based on the programming.

As an example, everything I have learned about roasting (as comparatively little that may or may not be) states that the bean temperature should never be allowed to drop during the roasting cycle. Holding it steady is OK. The graphs show about a 30 degree drop in temperature which, on its own, would indicate a poor appliance, but as I indicated above, since we do not know the temperature inside the drum nor the beans' temperature the data being presented is not all that useful when speaking of the roast itself. At least to say that it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to compare the roasts of the Behmor appliance to most any other roaster.

Another observation is the overly-long cooling period. According to the last graph, at the end of the roast when cooling started it took about 4 minutes to go from about 470 to 280 degrees. Again, this is only the chamber temperature, but points towards the need to get the drum out and cool the beans externally for the best possible results.

[another_jim]

As an example, everything I have learned about roasting (as comparatively little that may or may not be) states that the bean temperature should never be allowed to drop during the roasting cycle. Holding it steady is OK. The graphs show about a 30 degree drop in temperature

Carl Staub, of Agtron fame, says dropping environmental temperatures detracts from the roast quality. On the other hand, there's a few commercial drum roasters that blw cold air into the drum to hold beans to a preprogrammed profile. I make sure I never program a bean temperature profile into my P1 that drops the temperature of the air blowing in (basically, no sharp corners in the profile). My cupping on this has been unscientific, and I'm not aware of any tests that back up Staub's ideas.

[miKe mcKoffee]

As an example, everything I have learned about roasting (as comparatively little that may or may not be) states that the bean temperature should never be allowed to drop during the roasting cycle. Holding it steady is OK. The graphs show about a 30 degree drop in temperature which, on its own, would indicate a poor appliance, but as I indicated above, since we do not know the temperature inside the drum nor the beans' temperature the data being presented is not all that useful when speaking of the roast itself. At least to say that it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to compare the roasts of the Behmor appliance to most any other roaster.

As previously noted the graph is indeed roast environment. I dropped the environment temperature heading into 1st, doesn't mean the bean temperature dropped. Note the environmental temperature was always well above the 1st crack bean temperature range, dropping from a peak on the pre-1st push of 502f! That 30 degree environmental drop going into first had virtually nothing to do with appliance design and was totally planned and intentional. Manual variable boosted heater controlled roast. And since 1st cracked was steady and sustained and following pause proceeded to 2nd without increased heat obviously the roast chamber was not too cool to finish the roast to intended Full City. Actually the last stage 96v to heater stabilized at ~463f so would have easily gone to hard rolling 2nd. In fact I'd intially planned the roast profile to increase heater voltage up at the 16 minute mark but during roast deemed it unnecessary. Reducing applied heat going into first is not uncommon in drum roasting. Commercial drum roasting usual done combination of lower flame and increased air flow.

Another observation is the overly-long cooling period. According to the last graph, at the end of the roast when cooling started it took about 4 minutes to go from about 470 to 280 degrees. Again, this is only the chamber temperature, but points towards the need to get the drum out and cool the beans externally for the best possible results.

Indeed it took 5.5 minutes from end of roast to get to 200f range, which I deem critical cooling point. However, until comparisons of in roaster cooling done with yanking the drum for faster cooling it's premature to assume in roaster cooling will yield inferior rather than equal or even superior cup.

[Randy G.]

As previously noted the graph is indeed roast environment. What makes you assume because I dropped environment temperature heading into 1st that the bean temperature dropped?

I did not assume anything. I never said that, nor inferred that, and I apologize if that meaning was derived from what I typed. I was stating that the graph of roasting chamber temperature was not telling us what the machine was doing to the beans. I was questioning the value of the data in relation to the roast itself, not the accuracy of the data. Indeed, I said:

"The graphs show about a 30 degree drop in temperature which, on its own, would indicate a poor appliance, but as I indicated above [referring to a statement in my original post], since we do not know the temperature inside the drum nor the beans' temperature the data being presented is not all that useful when speaking of the roast itself."

I have logged data from a lot of roasts on a number of roasters and I have never seen a drop in temperature- but that's just my experience. On the other hand, I have always logged the temperature in the bean mass or inside the drum or roast chamber itself (when using an air roaster)- never on the outside of the drum. This is the way most roasters have been discussed, and so that was what led me to question the value or accuracy of the collected data when the beans themselves are the most important thing to consider.

I have dropped the roasting chamber temperature in my roasts on numerous occasions (in nearly every roast for the last six or eight months) but I have numerous logs of the bean temperature to verify the effect of doing so. I have not seen that sort of data from a roast done in the Behmor.

We can guess and assume all we want, but with no data to back it up it is virtually impossible to know that the roasts are doing as well as they can, or even doing what we assume is being done, if there is no way to quantify it objectively. I would like to KNOW exactly how did dropping the temperature as you did in the chamber affected the temperature of the bean mass. Did the rate of increase hold steady? Did it lessen the rate of temperature rise 2 degrees/minute for two minutes? Did it drop? I don't know. I WOULD like to know.

[miKe mcKoffee]

"The graphs show about a 30 degree drop in temperature which, on its own, would indicate a poor appliance, but as I indicated above [referring to a statement in my original post], since we do not know the temperature inside the drum nor the beans' temperature the data being presented is not all that useful when speaking of the roast itself."

Ah see a problem. I need to post some photos! The drum is open mesh type. So yes the TC is outside the drum ~3/4 inch away from the center of the left end, but since open mesh the temp while it may be different than insdie the drum it's highly doubtful to be much different.

We can guess and assume all we want, but with no data to back it up it is virtually impossible to know that the roasts are doing as well as they can, or even doing what we assume is being done, if there is no way to quantify it objectively. I would like to KNOW exactly how did dropping the temperature as you did in the chamber affected the temperature of the bean mass. Did the rate of increase hold steady? Did it lessen the rate of temperature rise 2 degrees/minute for two minutes? Did it drop? I don't know. I WOULD like to know.

When has it been said any Behmor roast that has been done is "doing as well as they can"? I don't have a clue what you mean by "or even doing what we assume is being done". The beans tan, they brown, they proceed to 1st and 2nd crack at given times and temps. No assumptions about that. The roast in question had a sustained moderate paced 1st crack of ~3:30 duration with ~2 minute pause before 2nd, again no assumption on what the bean is doing. That roast happened to do fairly closely what I intended it to do. As far as knowing how dropping the temp affected the bean mass, first I'll say the environament temp was peak 502f when lowering heater power and the beans had not started 1st crack therefore the beans were much cooler than roasting environment since if the beans were actually 502f they would have been past Spanish Roast and in flames. I'll know how using that type of profile with the Behmor affects the beans when I get to the roast comparison in the cup stage of testing and a similar profile but not taking roast environment as hot before the ease into 1st. I do already know that with 1# batch lower environment temp early results in anemic 1st. Burning through test beans to learn the Behmor bean behavior as stated earlier. Measuring bean temps is over rated IMO. (And I've been doing it regulary for going on 6 years around a thousand roasts.) More important to gain an understanding of what's the beans telling you with your senses. In a recent SM List discussion Tom said in part

...consistency and roast quality are more important than whether or not you are measuring the bean temp. Have you ever used a Probat? It's something 90% of commercial coffee roasters deal with - you are usually not measuring bean temp...

[cafeIKE]

I knew somebody was going to ask for graphs! "Only takes a moment" to create graphs in Excel assumes a couple things: 1) have Excel and 2) already know how to quickly create charts in Excel. Ok for 1) I do have full Office Suite. However for 2) I am not proficient with Excel and spent over a half hour messing with a line chart and how the hell do you change the axis so each 30 second temp data point entered is 30 seconds (or 0.5 minutes) instead of 1 minute increment. I'm not wasting any more time on it, don't have the time to waste!

Anyone is more than welcome to convert my data to graphical! I have more test data to key in and post and many many more test roasts to do rather than learning Excel graphing...

Right Click and Save Target As... this Roast Log Plotter. Also does Shots PM if you need help formatting your data

[miKe mcKoffee]

Sorry for no posts or updates, my focus is back where it belongs and must remain, getting mcKona Koffee Roastery Kafe off the ground.

Chris's 1st look with some good pictures http://ineedcoffee.com/07/behmor1600/

[DavidMLewis]

Carl Staub, of Agtron fame, says dropping environmental temperatures detracts from the roast quality.

Even if that's an accurate quote (I don't remember where I read it but I remember his having said you didn't want the environment temperature dropping below the bean temperature), he's assuming that convective transfer is the dominant path of heat into the beans. That's true for both air roasters and commercial drum roasters, but doesn't seem to be the case with the Hottop and I would guess even less with the Behmor. I say this because on the computer-controlled Hottop, I will stall first, when the beans are highly endothermic, if the environment temperature is quite high but the element is off, whereas I won't stall it if the environment temperature is much lower but the element is on. From that I conclude that radiative transfer is much more of a factor in a roaster with a perforated drum and a heating element putting out a lot of infrared. In the Behmor, where the drum is wire and much less opaque, and the element is a quartz one instead of a Calrod, I'd be surprised if the dropping environment temperature meant a dropping bean temperature.

Best,
David

[miKe mcKoffee]

Haven't had/made/found time to do any more testroasting of stock profile configurations. However, I have been using the Behmor as my production roaster with excellent results in the cup. Enough so I'm confident enough in the results to roast any bean. Today's first cup of the morning Cafe Crema Americano of Panama Gesha Esmerelda was on par (or better) than any Rosto profiled roast done in the past. This cup is actually the tale end of this 1# Gesha batch roasted 7/30 with half of the batch vac' sealed and frozen immediately post cooling, removed from freezer a week ago 8/4. This is not this year's new crop Gesha but from the none COE lot SM got in latter part of '06, greens kept vac' sealed room temp. The Gesha 1# roast was a 18:30 total roast time to Light Full City. Superb balance of the wonderful Gesha acidity with very good body. Tuesday of this week roasted 1# batchs of CR Las Laja WP & Miel go LFC in 16:30 with slighly different profile than used for the Gesha. Actually used lower initial heat for the faster roast but held the boost longer. (126v vs. 132v). Haven't had a dud roast yet. Kenyas, Yirgs, Konas, Sumatras etc. all good. I am not using closed door cooling but also not removing drum for speed cooling. Opening the door at start of cooling cycle seems to work quite well 1# batch. Though the Sulawesi 1# roast I did previously with full closed door cooling did turn out excellent (stock P1 18min), haven't tried full closed door cooling with a "bright" coffee.

I have not been using stock configuration however. Stock I'd likely only use the P1 or maybe for some P2 profiles for full pound batches. The other profiles just seem to start too low heat for full pounds.

I didn't like the draw fan/after burner not coming on until 7:30 into the roast when using 1# settings with manual heater control so have gone to using 1/2# setting P5 time maxed to 17:30 for my 1# batches with manual heater control. (The longest possible time with 1/2# selected.) This yields the fan/AB coming on 5 minutes into the roast. I did this not for the after burner but for adding air flow earlier which I believe adds some convection and evenier early roast development. Alchemist has been playing with higher RPM drum motors (30 and has a 60 coming) which I believe is also aiding better convection and more robust 1st cracks and reduced roast times. The stock drum motor is around 12 to 15 rpm IIRC. I'll likely follow suite and add the motor mod'.

If I was just starting my home roasting journey would I be happy with the Behmor stock results? I believe the answer would be yes. As a bit more advanced home roaster accustomed to having good control of my roasts so far happy with the results in the cup and hackability of the Behmor.

Oh, thoughts on the wire mesh drum. It is a 5 count. (mesh of 5 openings per inch.) Works fine for most beans but some smaller will loose a few though very few. Believe 6 count might be ideal. But don't know how much smaller opening would impede chaff exiting the drum so that may have been the trade off. Speaking of chaff, does an ok job but also suspect higher rpm drum will have additional benefit of a bit better chaff removal.

This 2nd cup of the morning Kenya cap' I just made Debi & I is quite delish too. Bean resting and waking up quite nicely, much better than yesterday's shorter 3 day rest. (which is what I have found normal most beans most roasts) 1# 16min batch to barest early 2nd open door cooled.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Couldn't sleep so just finished finally doing some roasting to send out. Roasted 1# batches of Aged Sumatra Lintong, Costa Rica Las Lajas and 20:40:40 pre-roast blend Aged Sumatra, Brazil YB & Yirg' Ididio Misty Valley. Didn't use stock profiles but manual heater control boosted early 126v then brought it down in varying degrees as low as 90v going through 1st the CR going for a bit lighter roast finish City/City+. Batch times ranged from 16:30 to 17 minutes. Cooling under 200f just before 3 minute point. Not totally happy with the results but think they're ok. Believe will get more even roast results with faster drum motor like Alchemist is experimenting with. Stock motor 12rpm or so... But the 126v start of roast boost is more even result than using 132v boost. Also using a 1/2# batch selection time maxed out to 17:30 for 1# manual heater control roasts which kicks the draw-fan and after burner on at 5min into roast instead of 7:30 with 1# selection helps I believe.

Of course roasting 2:30 to 4 am my mind may not be fully functional so who knows.

[lespresso]

...merged with thread on same subject by moderator...



I'm new to the home roasting.I have found Behmor 1600 Coffee Roaster information on the net.Just wonder if anyone has any opinion about that unit. And one more question where to find green coffee beans and what is the criteria for bean selection.
Just love espresso.Thank for all who reply

[Beavis]

I'm brand new to roasting and have been watching the Behmor 1600 too. It's set to be available mid November. I called Coffee Bean Corral and got Russ. He suggested an I Roast 2 for my first roaster and he threw in 2 lbs of coffee. And for another $10, another 5 lbs of coffee. I can always upgrade. The I Roast 2 is about $125 cheaper and seems to be the most popular roaster discussed on these boards. My total was around $197. Sweet Marias is the other main site for roasters and green coffee. They are probably the most popular. Good luck.

[popeye]

OK...I've been waiting, but nobody's started a thread yet with comments about how their Behmor is turning out. Since i got mine about a week ago, and since that qualifies as a first look, i'll post here.

I upgraded from an iroast2. I was having moderate success on the iroast2 with average (115?) voltage in Pensacola, FL. However, since moving out here to San Diego, and my voltage jumping up to 120-122 volts, I'd been scorching beans left and right. The overall heat transfer just seemed too fast, and it was extremely difficult to produce an decent vacpot roast, let alone one suitable for espresso.

Compared to the best roasts from my iroast2, the Behmor is responding as a typical drum: more body, more crema (my decaf is now indistinguishable in crema from my caf), and slightly muted highs and acidity. As far as espresso goes, it's been great. The lighter roasts don't have that biting acidity, and all roasts are producing silkier crema. It's as though the crema is comprised of smaller bubbles, or something. In fact, the Behmor has been turning out roasts with crema that is approaching the amount i've sampled in Vivace Dolce - my "holy grail" of crema quality. In fact, the most surprising coffee so far has been the only decaf i've had available - an oaxaca. It's been producing great crema, and it's mexican!

I've been roasting at 150g, which is slightly over 5 ounces, because i'm trying to roast frequently to get the feel of the roaster. My experience with the iroast2 was that the roasts developed faster post roast (needed just under 2 days to rest) and went old faster (i didn't like them past day seven). I've been drinking the Behmor roasts right off the bat, just to get a feel of how they mature, but coffee from the Behmor seems to ramp up to it's peak more slowly. Right now, the coffee's I've done have been peaking at day 3 or 4. Also, the coffee is constantly changing post roast, and doesn't seem to have that off/on/off of the iroast2. It seems to be a little more like commercial drum roasts, which, in my experience, require the longest rest but stay good for the longest time.

As profiles go, I've been using p3 a lot, which is a fairly slow ramp, but I've got really high voltage out here. It's been working fine. The last roast i did, i used that strange p2 profile, where the heat starts cycling at 60% time. At 150 grams and 120 volts, that cycling began at toward the end of first crack, which was what i was intended. Since the heat was reduced (but the temperature didn't lower), the inter-crack time was about 2:45 seconds. Unfortunately since that was my decaf roast (oaxaca, no less) I can't really compare it like i could if it was my standard espresso. I'm curious to try to repeat that roast with one of the caf blends I've got in stock.
As far as regular coffee (aeropress and vacpot), I've had a little trouble targeting degree of roast, but it's been great. Much more body, and a great buttery mouthfeel out of the one la Esmerelda Gesha I did. However, compared to some of my Pensacola iroast2 roasts (when the voltage wasn't screwing with me) I think I'll be unable to attain some of the high notes. I haven't done a Kenya yet, so I'll withhold judgment on that one. On the plus, repeatability and evenness are way up.

Quibbles: I know there's a new drum coming out, with smaller holes. However, using too small of coffee with the current drum will not only result in coffee falling through the drum, and burning on the chaff collector (throwing off the smell of the roast), it will also allow some coffee to become stuck in the drum. When this stuck coffee hits first crack, it can actually enlarge the hole it was stuck in, bending the mesh of the drum. This is repairable with pliers, but its something i hadn't seen mentioned elsewhere. Also, i wish i had some more manual control. Does anybody have a variac? I've been thinking about picking one up, both for the iroast2 problem, and so i could just leave the Behmor in p1 and use the variac. Lastly, it's been making my smoke alarm go off. Although there's no visible smoke, especially at 150 grams, the particles that do escape must be exactly what my smoke alarm looks for. It's really surprising, because I have trouble getting enough of a whiff to even gauge degree of roast by smell. It's definitely an indoor roaster for me, although I am single

Final thoughts: A huge step up over my iroast2. I'm extremely excited about espresso. I've got a half pound of Coffee Klatch WBC blend sitting on top of my fridge that i haven't been using because i'm so excited about the espresso possibility of the Behmor. I've done one batch of Ethiopian Golocha, a little too dark, yet outstanding (if second crack starts, the only way to stop it is to hit cool and open the door - temporarily! - and quickly get some cold air in there, otherwise it will proceed to completion) I've got some Paradise roasters Havana Reserve, which I'm really excited about, but i'll probably have to wait until after i get back from a thanksgiving trip. Oh, and chestnuts roast well so far too!

What's everyone else been thinking? What profiles have you all been using? (and what's your voltage? I know Tom - of Sweet Marias - was a big proponent of p1 because it sounded like he had low voltage, or at least lower than mine) Anybody play around with p2? Anybody have the same problem with the bean bending the mesh of the drum?

[SJM]

Is Popeye really the only person here that has hands-on experience with the new Behmor 1600 (since it has actually been in retail production)?

Seems like it is generating a love-fest over at Coffeegeek, and I'm wondering why the buzz is limited to that forum.

Santa just might need a hint to replace my IR2 with one, but I need some corroborating evidence before I squander my wishes....

Thanks any/everone.

Susan

[Ken Fox]

Is Popeye really the only person here that has hands-on experience with the new Behmor 1600 (since it has actually been in retail production)?

Seems like it is generating a love-fest over at Coffeegeek, and I'm wondering why the buzz is limited to that forum.

Santa just might need a hint to replace my IR2 with one, but I need some corroborating evidence before I squander my wishes....

Thanks any/everone.

Susan

Something is going on, but I'm not sure what.

There was some interest over at the green bean coop in possibly selling them there if the roasts were satisfactory, but the posts on that thread (especially regarding a group buy) just up and died. Separately, I heard from a coffee friend that he had sampled some roasts sent to him that came out of this roaster, and that he was not all that impressed.

If I was considering this roaster, I'd be looking for more reports from more people (especially people whose taste I was familiar with) before I took the plunge and bought one of these things. The roaster is not all that expensive, but when you factor in your time and effort, plus the cost of beans you might not be happy with, a little more reflection is probably in order.

ken

[nelamvr6]

I've been lurking a bit, but this is my first post here. A few of you may have seen my posts at Coffeegeek, though I'm still a newb there too.

I have the new Behmor 1600, and I LOVE it!

I hesitated to post my views, since I'm still pretty much a newb at home roasting.

But then it occurred to me that other newbs would like to know that this roaster is very newb friendly.

I have so far roasted at least 10 batches, most of which were 1/4#, but I have about four 1/2# roasts under my belt. Every single batch came out beautifully!

During the initial dry-burn there was a bit of smoke, bit after that I haven't seen so much as a wisp of smoke.

I roast indoors, and I haven't set off my smoke detector once.

I hope this helps someone, I appreciate all that I've learned by lurking here, so I figured I should give back if I'm able.

Cheers!

nat

[187]

A lot of people at the Green Coffee Buying Club are thrilled with their Behmor 1600. We managed to get a very good deal on the machines. I've done ten roasts so far and the only problems are operator induced and even then the roasts are great. I think this roaster will be a perfect companion to my Brewtus II. I expect the Behmor to be just as boring as the Brewtus II. All either of these machines do is what they are supposed to do. They both do it to perfection and with no hassle.

[JonR10]

Seems like it is generating a love-fest over at Coffeegeek, and I'm wondering why the buzz is limited to that forum.

I've been posting about the Behmor at coffeegeek and not here mainly to avoid cross-posting, perhaps some other posters are thinking similarly. CG and HB have a substantial overlap of membeship, but if you want to see more buzz from different people, check out the SweetMaria's homeroasting mailing list (yahoo group) because there have been quite a few threads on the Behmor running.

Ken - I was one of the Green Coffee Buying Club group buy participants; I'd say the main advantage of that buy was that we got he roasters in our hands very fast....the thread died out once the roasters were in hand. There is another (active) thread over there where users are posting profiles and results.

Looking back on my CG posts it often seems like I'm a walking advertisement for the Behmor, so I decided to lay off a bit until I had more practice with the machine and more results to compare. I'm no cupper so all I can post about taste is my own impressions.

I've been through a dozen roasts and just this weekend started tasting the espresso roasts I did last weekend. The results from my blend (first try with the Behmor) are very similar to what I had from the last batches (roasted on my SCTO) which is just saying that with the same beans and same person it can produce similar results.....in other words I was able to use the Behmor to get the roast end results I was accustomed to producing with my other rig but of course the Behmor is more convenient.

This weekend (today) it's cold and wet in Houston. To me "cold" means less than 60 F
So I will be roasting in the garage. I plan to try something a little different with my espresso this time around, I am roasting some new beans (to me) will keep all of the batches separate and combine them in different ways to see if I can find a substitute for the Ugandan bean I was using but cannot replace. I also plan on roasting my espresso a tad lighter than I have in the past to see if the Behmor can allow me to bring out more subtle flavors while still maintaining the smooth and mellow sweetness I shoot for in my blend.

Plus - I have a new grinder that I want to compare with the Super-J for lighter roasts.....

[Ken Fox]

Ken - I was one of the Green Coffee Buying Club group buy participants; I'd say the main advantage of that buy was that we got he roasters in our hands very fast....the thread died out once the roasters were in hand. There is another (active) thread over there where users are posting profiles and results.

I was talking about the green bean COOP, e.g. http://www.greencoffee.coop/

There are new posts there since I posted last night, but they talk about mechanics of using the thing and not the results. There are well known people posting about their experiences there, but so far what is written about actual roast results is kinda sparse.

ken