Behmor 1600 Coffee Roaster - 1st Look - Page 9

[Ken Fox]

I beta tested the Behmor over 7 months...in fact, I'm STILL testing it!
As far as the comment about "complex products"...the whole point of the Behmor, I believe, is that it can be as SIMPLE, or as complex as you choose..

I'm not going to respond to your post, since Dan accuses me sometimes of having "lastworditis" in threads and I don't want to give him the satisfaction

My only comment is that I really do not appreciate having posts personalized and directed at myself, with references to how I might feel about this or that thing that I own, or whatever some may think of my personal circumstances. This sort of stuff is out of bounds, and should remain so.

ken

[HB]

Please excuse this moderator-ly interruption...

Get over the Behmor brother! Or at least buy one and try it out and tell us about it, since you are so rich and whatever.

When i communicate with my friends here, I WILL NOT CURB MY ENTHUSIASM. That's why we have moderators.

My only comment is that I really do not appreciate having posts personalized and directed at myself...

Long-time members may have noticed that I don't like the term moderators. Frequently it means "forum police." I've done my fair share of that duty and I can assure you, it's tedious, thankless work few would volunteer for. That's why on this site, each forum instead lists a "lead barista" who facilitates discussions as the leader of an espresso lab would.

It would be a waste of their time and talents to burden them with policing adherence to a list of forum rules, so instead we rely on members (implicitly) agreeing to the site's Guidelines for productive discussion. It explains what is expected of forum participants and includes basic common sense guidelines like Be respectful. If you have any doubts about whether your comments are appropriate, refer to these guidelines. If it is still unclear, contact me offline.

Thank you.

[Java Man]

I had a handle on the Behmor after 4 or 5 roasts. Not a perfect grip, but a confident grasp.

I stand by my guideline that people (and I'm referring to home baristas who typically use a machine only daily or even less often, rather than professionals who use a machine dozens of times per day) should wait three months before posting reviews of complex equipment. But let me elaborate (you can't stop me! ).

To me, a review should say more than "it works, and here's how to use it". Reviews ought to help a prospective buyer understand the machine's shortcomings and the petty annoyances of using it day after day. We all know the difference between the enthusiasm we initially felt for a new piece of gear, and our less dreamy assessment of its day-to-day performance after a year of ownership. I'd say three months of use is the minimum required to begin understanding the factors that take us out of the honeymoon phase and into the more balanced assessment that comes with deeper appreciation of both its strengths and weaknesses.

To elaborate on my previous comment, I don't consider most of the posts here about the Behmor as premature "reviews". They're more like running commentaries during the introductory phase with a new machine, and I appreciate having the chance to read them.

Rick

[lparsons21]

I haven't seen any reviews yet either. I have seen what you describe, initial impressions after a day or so of use. That they seem so enthusiastic is a good sign that it has hit some sweet spot for some of us. Of course, we won't know how that will all translate into the longer use period.

While I read of all the things people are doing to stretch this or that, or what outside control they are doing, and I am curious about those things too. I'm doing my testing from the point of view of what it does without all of that. IOW, using the controls as designed and leaving the door shut until it quits. And that is because I think that both sides of the roasting public needs to be addressed.

The inveterate tinkerer, the demanding roaster and the casual roaster who just wants a better, but not perfect, cup of coffee. The question to me, is the Behmor going to address all those types? Right now I'd say the casual roaster can give a qualified yes, the qualification being not enough time to know for sure. The other two? I think the jury is still firmly out for them, but there is a lot of info out there to indicate that it just might be for them too.

I'll keep reading here and other places, and posting too, because this seems to be a very nice product that has hit a very nice, if early, mark in coffee roasting.

[IMAWriter]

I stand by my guideline that people (and I'm referring to home baristas who typically use a machine only daily or even less often, rather than professionals who use a machine dozens of times per day) should wait three months before posting reviews of complex equipment. But let me elaborate (you can't stop me! ).

To me, a review should say more than "it works, and here's how to use it". Reviews ought to help a prospective buyer understand the machine's shortcomings and the petty annoyances of using it day after day. We all know the difference between the enthusiasm we initially felt for a new piece of gear, and our less dreamy assessment of its day-to-day performance after a year of ownership. I'd say three months of use is the minimum required to begin understanding the factors that take us out of the honeymoon phase and into the more balanced assessment that comes with deeper appreciation of both its strengths and weaknesses.

To elaborate on my previous comment, I don't consider most of the posts here about the Behmor as premature "reviews". They're more like running commentaries during the introductory phase with a new machine, and I appreciate having the chance to read them.

Rick

I agree totally, Rick. In fact, I posted several times on CG my desire that fols not post espresso machine reviews for at least 3 months...6 is better, as the learning curve, as you know does take time.
As you said, these (mine included) are running commentaries.....not reviews.
As I mentioned, I've had by now over 7 months with this roaster. I'm pretty secure with it's performance, and the +'s and -'s of same. Hopefully, I've been balanced and most of all, level headed.

[stevendouglas]

I wonder if it's not time to start a new thread on the Behmor. I'm afraid that this one is full of a lot of commentary, particularly in the last few pages, that wouldn't be helpful to a Behmor owner looking for information/advice.

Nonetheless, I'll keep it going for now, since I have a question about roasting Brazilians in the Behmor (Brazilian coffee that is ). What profile do you use?

I'm using P1 for most of SO's other than my Brazilians.

[JonR10]

Nonetheless, I'll keep it going for now, since I have a question about roasting Brazilians in the Behmor (Brazilian coffee that is ). What profile do you use?

I have run several batches of the Brasil Morenhina Formosa (sp?) on the Behmor with several different combinations of load/profile/times/roast levels but I am not ready to post my impressions because the last couple of iterations are just now "ready" and I need a few days to taste them as espresso and as drip.

So, sometime next week I'll probably make a post or two at CoffeeGeek (in the Behmor profiles thread) on the subject of roasting Brasilian beans with the Behmor.....in the meantime I'll just indicate that of the roasts I've tasted so far I have generally liked the beans roasted with the more gentle P3 profile.

When I roast with P3, I like to subtract time before the start and add it back at the end. For example, the last batch I did was 12 ounces on P3*1 lb subtracted to 12:00 starting time and then adding 6 minutes after initiating the roast. This ended up with C1 starting at 11-12 minutes (IIRC) and C2 snippits at 16+ minutes, hitting "cool" just as C2 starts to build and opening the door about 20-30 seconds after to get a quick cooldown.

Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

[mike]

Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Generally speaking (and I sort of posted this at CG), P3 probably wouldn't hurt a soft bean like Brazil that doesn't have any real acidity to miss, especially taken that deep where the roast flavor is going to dominate. So, no attack here, and I think that taste is valid if that is what you prefer.

For what it is worth though....

I did two roast of SM's Classic Italian (what can I say? Sometimes I'm too lazy to blend...), one using P3, and one using P2. Both to light Vienna (rolling 2nd before the cooling stops the roast fully). The P3 was first, and tasted fine. The P2 was a couple weeks later, and was also good, but had some really nice balancing notes of acidity that woke up the palate just a hint. Not bright by any means, but a few other notes in the scale.

I think it will come down to personal taste, but I definitely recommend trying P2 for espressos. I've done both P3 and P2, and P2 won by a long shot to my taste (even if P3 is labeled as for espresso blends in some info). Tom at SM's also likes P2 for Brazils according to his page.

What I do think is a "crime" is to take a nice Central or African, and put it through P3, P4 or P5 like I have seen a few people do. Those beans to me are still like steaks - get the grill hot, roast them quickly to what you want, and cool as quickly as you can. No sense driving off those nice subtle flavors and acidity in my opinion.

I saw Dan and the CCC crew this morning. Within a week or two we'll do a blind cupping of a bean we'll select from the CCC stocks. There are too many variables with espresso prep, so we are going to do normal cupping. We'll do the CCC roast, plus all five profiles of the Behmor taken to the same final level as the CCC. Probably do something like 3 days of rest. I'd throw in my modified popper too, but it is too cold outside for that machine. Chances are we'll do an African with a lot of flavor so that we can clearly identify the effects of the profiles. The results should be interesting!

[IMAWriter]

Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day


Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Why harsh impressions?....as much as I enjoy reading and occasionally posting here, no one on this web site that I know of has a pipeline to the Almighty...agree or disagree, the minute someone puts themselves over another based on such a subjective criteria as taste preference?....I'd just remind them that this is a forum where all should be treated with respect...Jon, courteous and respectful as you have been here and on CG, only a cretin not worthy of your response would react in a harsh manner...so, FEAR NOT, my friend...enjoy your mellowed out espresso choco-latte....lol
Have you tried roasting your Liquid Gold blend?....I forgot the formula...I've roasted 20lbs of Redline...mostly with the optional basket...I've had one for 4 months....it is a MUST for smaller beans...Misty valley, Harar, Yemen, peaberry, etc.
I'll be roasting Bella Vita next week.
In answer to the P2/P3 thing....P2 seems to work best for espresso blends, as long the somewhat subdued 1st crack doesn't scare you!
I actually open the door for 2 seconds when 1st is over, to stretch...for some reason, 2nd can sneak up on you in the P2 profile...
I use P1 for Guats, Costa Rica, El Salvador, etc
later!

[lparsons21]

I guess I'm the only one playing around with P4, or at least one of the few.

I've used it with SM's Classic Italian

1/2# load
Settings: 1/2#, P4, D, 6 +'s

Came up with a nice light show and a very nice dark Vienna. Delicious.

I could have used 4 +'s I think, and since it was an early roast, I didn't log it well. But the results were sure good.

I also did another P4 roasting :

SM's Kenya AA Nyeri - 1/2# load

Settings : 1/2#, P4, D
Stopped the roast with 2:00 left and let the roaster do the cooling.

Results : very nice City roast, very nuanced cup as I expected.

I think P4 is going to turn out to be one of my favorite profiles, although I'm still testing.

[RapidCoffee]

Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.

Give me a demitasse of warmed chocolate syrup any ol' day

Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Jon, I hope you won't allow the recent epidemic of "intolerance flu" to scare you off H-B. I (for one) greatly appreciate your willingness to freely share your extensive knowledge of all things coffee. IMHO your personal experience with the Behmor is worth far more than any amount of hearsay.

I've been roasting with another small electric drum roaster (the AeroRost) for several years now, and I'm convinced this is the logical next step for home roasters who require a larger batch size than air poppers provide. Although the AeroRost has a larger drum capacity, the Behmor has several advanced features (roast profiles and smoke reduction) and a very reasonable price tag. If I didn't already own the AeroRost, you can bet I would have ordered a Behmor!

My home roasts run in the 15-20" range, depending on batch size, and whether I drag out the variac. This is absolutely not baking the beans. And while a blueberry bomb SO Harrar is fine as a special treat, like you, I'm happiest with comfort food chocolate syrup espressos/cappuccinos for my daily bread and butter pours. (Man, I'm mixing metaphors like crazy today.)

Anyway, please continue to share your thoughts on H-B as well as CG. Don't let one grumpy guy in pajamas scare you off.

[prof_stack]

... Generally speaking, some people believe that I "bake" my beans because of some of my extended profiles. My SCTO roasts typically would run 18-20 minutes for a 14-oz charge. Perhaps it's true and my tastes are just not very discriminating, but since I prefer the smoother/creamy/heavy/syrupy-sweeter ("comfort espresso") shots and do not enjoy brighter espresso as much it works fine for me.
... Of course the harsh criticism this post will likely evoke here is the reason I'd prefer to post my impressions at CG

Harsh criticism? Hardly! I'm with you on the smooooother taste coming from a longer roast. Kind of like a German pilsner on tap compared to a USA microbrewed ale (I brewed beer for 20 years and was far geekier a beer nerd than (so far) a coffee guy).

The last two Behmor roasts took over 18 minutes each (but should take less time now that I've got the voltage thing figured out and bought a 12-gauge cord) and they are really satisfying. However, I'm going to recalibrate my taste-buds a little by bringing out the Poppery I and doing a roast this weekend. Just like old times.

[JonR10]

So, no attack here, and I think that taste is valid if that is what you prefer.

Thanks Mike. I appreciate your consideration. I've seen less encouraging comments from others...

I think it will come down to personal taste, but I definitely recommend trying P2 for espressos. I've done both P3 and P2, and P2 won by a long shot to my taste (even if P3 is labeled as for espresso blends in some info). Tom at SM's also likes P2 for Brazils according to his page.

All I am saying at this moment is that for this particular bean I have (so far) preferred the taste of the P3 roasts best. I have 2 batches at home to taste, each was 8 ounces and one was run on P2 and the other P3 and both followed more traditionally accepted roast times (i.e. first crack at around 9-10 minutes and C2 at 13-14 minutes, both roasts quick-cooled at FC+ as C2 started to roll). So far, I have noticed an off taste (both as espresso and as drip) for this bean with the profiles I've used that ramp the temperature faster. Maybe the bean itself has a taste defect, but even if that's true then the P3 roast has masked that defect well.

What I do think is a "crime" is to take a nice Central or African, and put it through P3, P4 or P5 like I have seen a few people do. Those beans to me are still like steaks - get the grill hot, roast them quickly to what you want, and cool as quickly as you can. No sense driving off those nice subtle flavors and acidity in my opinion.

Agreed (for the most part). If I am roasting an African or Yemen bean for espresso then I have always preferred to ramp a tad slower and stretch the roast between C1 and C2 with my SCTO setup. For drip coffee I have roasted these harder beans more like you describe.....


I have started to notice a trend though....with this Behmor roaster it seems like I tend to favor longer roasts that finish lighter than with the SCTO. I have not tasted head-to-head and with (personal) bean inventory changes and such I'm in no position to make any difinitive statements at all, but this weekend I intend to roast some larger batches with the longer roasting times and see how they taste to me and to my office mates.


EDITED, ranting removed

And now we have a new roaster on the market that employs a different system for heat transfer (the combination of cycling quarts elements and the mesh drum). I have noticed that beans seem to behave and taste differently post-roast with this machine than with my SCTO or with the Ambex PLC-controlled roasters owned by my local pro buddy (with whom I often trade notes).

I have been surprised a few times by this machine. Some of my roasts that turned out too light after taking too long to complete have been lovely and some of my more traditional roasts have disappointed me. I decided to toss out my preconceptions and convention and start over, to investigate what works for me (and what doesn't) with this new machine. I bought a buncha beans that I enjoy so I can play with profiles and not worry too much about each batch being acceptable or not...and I have been roasting ALOT lately.


I'm keenly interested in people's experiences with this new roaster - both good and bad.
There's nothing wrong with a little early excitement.



EDIT

Anyway, please continue to share your thoughts on H-B as well as CG. Don't let one grumpy guy in pajamas scare you off.

...so, FEAR NOT, my friend...enjoy your mellowed out espresso choco-latte....lol
Have you tried roasting your Liquid Gold blend?

Thanks guys....I really appreciate the friends I have made online.
Your encouragement has really lifted my spirit this evening.

Thanks again,
Jon

[stevendouglas]

I appreciate all of the feedback.

I've been roasting the Brazilian (Poco Fundo and Moreninha Formosa) on a P1 (preheated for a couple of minutes). With a 300g load this hits 1C at around 10 minutes and 2C about 3 minutes later. I've been very satisfied with the results, but I'll definitely try the P2 profile.

FWIW, I did several roasts this weekend, and found that as a rough rule of thumb for P1, reducing the load by 50g reduces 1C time by about 1 minute.

EDIT: I'll definitely try the P3 profile (rather than P2 - I've done several P2 roasts) with the Brazilian beans. The Brazil I've roasted have seemed particularly sweet, so I appreciate Jon's advice on P3 roasting to sweeten them even more.

[cappadoc]

I've roasted 20lbs of Redline

Rob,
I'm a Redline addict. Care to share your profile?

I've done five pounds and have come up with this so far:
150g roasted at 1/2 lb P2C Start time 14:00 Usually stopped at 3:00 remaining give or take a few.

This results in 7:45 to 8:30 to first crack, 3:30 pause to second, stopped as soon as second gets rolling (FC to FC+).

So far I'm very pleased. Not quite as good as the real thing, but I'm really seeing some familiar flavors in the cup. IOW, VERY CLOSE . I'm really seeing the high notes at lighter roasts.

Anyone who'd care to share, feel free.

Jeff

[IMAWriter]

Rob,
I'm a Redline addict. Care to share your profile?

I've done five pounds and have come up with this so far:
150g roasted at 1/2 lb P2C Start time 14:00 Usually stopped at 3:00 remaining give or take a few.

This results in 7:45 to 8:30 to first crack, 3:30 pause to second, stopped as soon as second gets rolling (FC to FC+).

So far I'm very pleased. Not quite as good as the real thing, but I'm really seeing some familiar flavors in the cup. IOW, VERY CLOSE . I'm really seeing the high notes at lighter roasts.

Anyone who'd care to share, feel free.

Jeff

Wow....you're really getting to 1st quicker than my roaster...I've actually experimented with a similar profile as yours...BUT WAIT!!! (couldn't resist)...my roaster is 1 generation earlier, and Joe mentioned that there were a few minor tweaks...and , I believe a slightly different motor...I'll double check that....your voltage may be a bit more intense, as well....and what's cool, you got a very nice stretch to 2nd...good job!...my P2 roasts, as I said previously will have 2nd crack creep up on me unceremoniously
Just curious....were your 1st cracks subdued like mine, or more vigorous?
On my CG posts, I mentioned that one thing about the 1600 I really appreciate is the even roasts I get with espresso blends, like Redline.
In answer to your question regarding that all important quality, TASTE, my home roasted differs a bit...as it should...I'm an amateur, Tony is a pro...but the his version and mine are more similar than dissimilar...perhaps because Tony's roaster works on a similar prinicipal...radiant heat...just on a much LARGER scale, of course..
Speaking of Tony, he is a great guy, and VERY supportive of home roasters, as is Intelly, Paradise, PT's, and others my sleep deprived brain can't remember. BTW, I stop the roast a bit earlier than you...just personal preference...soon as I hear the first snaps of 2nd, I hit cool...the snaps stop about 20 seconds into cool...not vigorous, but enough to get me to a true full city, no oil. Along with the green, I always order a lb "Tony roasted" for comparison.
Interesting to me that the Redline I've enjoyed on and off this past 7-8 months differs a bit from say, last years...
The fruit is a bit darker, the top a touch more pronounced...still the touch of caramel...a bit less of the berry (at least to my senses...still, a nicely complex espresso....I'll pulling right around 200f...I've got that thermometer thingy from Chris Nachtrieb for my lovely Anita.
Just pulled shots today with 4day PT's Bella Vita (their roast...I also got 5lbs green....
I'm roasting some up tomorrow....
Y'all have a great weekend.

[cappadoc]

Rob,
I'm getting very slow,prolonged first crack. It will last around 2:30 before the pause between 1C and 2C.
I really worked to get this profile; lots of patience and observation. This is about the most I can roast to reach first at the theoretically magical eight minutes (see Ken Fox's home roaster tips) and that's fine with me.
Voltage at 117-121 per my Kill-A-Watt, average 118V. I haven't tried any other profiles than P2.

I agree with your Redline taste observations. Different recently, but good.

Care to post your results of roastng?

Jeff

[lparsons21]

I appreciate all of the feedback.

I've been roasting the Brazilian (Poco Fundo and Moreninha Formosa) on a P1 (preheated for a couple of minutes). With a 300g load this hits 1C at around 10 minutes and 2C about 3 minutes later. I've been very satisfied with the results, but I'll definitely try the P2 profile.

FWIW, I did several roasts this weekend, and found that as a rough rule of thumb for P1, reducing the load by 50g reduces 1C time by about 1 minute.

EDIT: I'll definitely try the P3 profile (rather than P2 - I've done several P2 roasts) with the Brazilian beans. The Brazil I've roasted have seemed particularly sweet, so I appreciate Jon's advice on P3 roasting to sweeten them even more.

On the preheating. Are you finding that is making a difference? Have you made a comparison without preheating? I know that with the Gene and Z&D, preheating made a difference, but I always figured that was as much because of the glass roasting chamber as anything else. With the Behmors open mesh chamber I didn't think it would matter.

[stevendouglas]

On the preheating. Are you finding that is making a difference? Have you made a comparison without preheating? I know that with the Gene and Z&D, preheating made a difference, but I always figured that was as much because of the glass roasting chamber as anything else. With the Behmors open mesh chamber I didn't think it would matter.

I think you're probably right. The heat transfer to the beans is radiant rather than conductive or convective. As such, it probably makes no difference. However, I started preheating based on the following temperature profile that I did in early Jan.



A two minute pre-heat gets T1 up to about 200F, and my thought was that it would shave a minute or two off of the roast time. Thus, I latched on to pre-heat and haven't done any back-to-back comparisons without pre-heating. I did, however, pre-heat too much during a couple of roasts. As a result, I had to cool it down to ambient temperature before starting the roast. I didn't see any significant change in the time to 1C.

Looking a the plot it occurs to me that:

1. T1 during pre-heat is not shielded by the beans or the basket, so T1 rises much quicker. Consequently, it's not as if you're "jumping in" at the 6 minute point.

2. As mentioned, I believe that the overwhelming heat transfer method is radiant, so the environmental temperature (T1) isn't much of a factor in increasing bean temperature. Said another way, T1 is probably a closer tracks bean temperature rather than the other way around. (I'm not saying that T1 is a surrogate for bean temperature.)

I wanted to plot the temperatures of a couple of batches with and without pre-heat, just to see if there is any noticable difference.

[IMAWriter]

Rob,
I'm getting very slow,prolonged first crack. It will last around 2:30 before the pause between 1C and 2C.
I really worked to get this profile; lots of patience and observation. This is about the most I can roast to reach first at the theoretically magical eight minutes (see Ken Fox's home roaster tips) and that's fine with me.
Voltage at 117-121 per my Kill-A-Watt, average 118V. I haven't tried any other profiles than P2.

I agree with your Redline taste observations. Different recently, but good.

Care to post your results of roastng?

Jeff

With the Behmor, I wouldn't worry about a"theoretically magical" 8 minutes to first. We're talking about a different animal here! In fact, with the SC/CO, I got slightly more balanced roasts when entering 1st at 10 minutes or so, depending upon the bean, of course...the beauty of "combo" was a hands on knob to ramp temp slightly up and down to slow down, if necessary..
I'll post my PT results Wednesday or Thursday....after 4 days rest...at least!
This might be more of a CG question but...has any Behmor owner noticed what I have?....that the roasts take maybe an extra day to really set up, but there is a slightly longer 'shelf life" as a result....Misty Valley really came alive day 3.