Behmor 1600 Coffee Roaster - 1st Look - Page 8

[mike]

I'm interested in whether any of the other home roasting appliances available produce better results in the cup in blind taste tests, and in how Behmor roasts stand up to those produced by commercial roasters. But maybe that would take the sport out of these discussions?

Rick

Yep. Biggest question would be: is the aim to duplicate roasts between the devices? I've actually matched CCC's roaster with my modified popper, at least in terms of finish and spread on the agtron.

I've thought something more interesting for the Behmor would be to take 8oz to FC using each of the 5 profiles, and blind taste those. CCC would probably be happy to provide a few pounds of green, maybe even distribute it to some other guys that have other devices. It would be pretty simple.

Again though, I think what it will come down to is that the roasts will taste like the profile used, and it'll be personal taste as to preference. What would be interesting though is if people pick out unmodified popper roasts or 23minutes-to-first-crack roasts as undrinkable.

I should be at CCC this week, and I'll see what folks think. I'm certainly up for it.

PS: and if folks have missed it in my comments, I'm pretty satisfied with my P1 and P2 roasts of 8oz, but still craving some manual control......

[DigMe]

I've got a Behmor on the way. We'll see how I make the transition from sitting over my SC/CO manually adjusting ON/OFF of the heater every few seconds as I monitor air-temps with an instant read thermocouple setup to a "hit a couple of buttons and watch" setup. As much as I enjoy tinkering I'd really like a workable, usable "hit the buttons and watch" setup that doesn't require me to drag out all the pieces and whatnot. My life has been too busy lately!

brad

[Ken Fox]

I'm not going to quote any specific post in this thread, but if anyone thinks they can determine how good someone's taste is from reading forum or usenet posts, you have just disqualified yourself as a discriminating individual as far as I am concerned.

I have at least several online people whose taste I respect, firsthand, and that is based on an exchange of actual roast samples and interactions in person tasting the same coffees in real time or in blind tasting experiments. As to reading someone's posts over whatever period of time, I give that absolutely zero credence, as I have no idea what they are tasting or how they are evaluating it.

ken

[lparsons21]

Ken,

It sounds as if a testing format was set up, you would give it no credence unless some of the several people you know were part of it? Am I reading this right?

But readers in this thread are supposed to give you credence, even though you have absolutely zero experience with this product?

Amazing, simply amazing...

[Ken Fox]

Ken,

It sounds as if a testing format was set up, you would give it no credence unless some of the several people you know were part of it? Am I reading this right?

But readers in this thread are supposed to give you credence, even though you have absolutely zero experience with this product?

Amazing, simply amazing...

Excuse me. Today is January the 22nd of 2008. Am I responding to the gentleman who received his Behmor roaster on January the 19th of 2008, who posted an enthusiastic review of this device on alt.coffee one day later, the 20th of January of 2008, and now asks me this question?

http://groups.google.com/group/al...n#363a9567e22f607e

I have nothing further to say.

ken

[lparsons21]

Excuse me. Today is January the 22nd of 2008. Am I responding to the gentleman who received his Behmor roaster on January the 19th of 2008, who posted an enthusiastic review of this device on alt.coffee one day later, the 20th of January of 2008, and now asks me this question?

http://groups.google.com/group/al...n#363a9567e22f607e

I have nothing further to say.

ken

Actually I got it on the 16th of January and have not given it an enthusiastic review. OK, I see why you would think I got it on the 19th. I didn't catch that as some of it was cut 'n pasted. Sorry for the confusion.

I have given my first impressions there and so identified it as such, I've also given one on CG, also identified as first impressions. BTW, I've done 8 roasts of varying sizes and beans, how many have you done on it? I've been roasting coffee for more than a year and about 80+ lbs of it with varying roasters.

I will be doing a full review, but it will be quite awhile before i do so.

[Ken Fox]

Actually I got it on the 16th of January and have not given it an enthusiastic review. OK, I see why you would think I got it on the 19th. I didn't catch that as some of it was cut 'n pasted. Sorry for the confusion.

I have given my first impressions there and so identified it as such, I've also given one on CG, also identified as first impressions. BTW, I've done 8 roasts of varying sizes and beans, how many have you done on it? I've been roasting coffee for more than a year and about 80+ lbs of it with varying roasters.

I will be doing a full review, but it will be quite awhile before i do so.

Oh, I see, you have owned it for SIX WHOLE DAYS (although you previously stated it was for THREE WHOLE DAYS).

My bad.

ken

[lparsons21]

Oh, I see, you have owned it for SIX WHOLE DAYS (although you previously stated it was for THREE WHOLE DAYS).

My bad.

ken

Ken, regardless of the number of days I've owned one, I did test it very well in a limited way. I then posted my results over a few days. For me, I can tell pretty much how good or bad something is in a very short period of time. The only thing I can't tell in a short time, is tight controllability and durability. And I think I've said that. And my impressions were only with roasts I actually completed and I structured my 1st impression postings that way also.

For some, huge amounts of testing are needed for them to make conclusions, for me that has never been the way I do things unless it turned out to be necessary. My 1st impressions were designated as just that, never tried to hide it at all. And my testing was done with beans that I roast and use all the time, not some new bean I wasn't very experienced with.

But regardless of how or what I posted, I posted from the point of view of a user with some experience and not as a commentator on something I had absolutely no time with at all.

This will be my last post on this point. I'll leave it alone, feel free to do so yourself. Hopefully others can just bypass these few comments and get back to discussing the Behmor.

[prof_stack]

But regardless of how or what I posted, I posted from the point of view of a user with some experience and not as a commentator on something I had absolutely no time with at all.

This will be my last post on this point. I'll leave it alone, feel free to do so yourself. Hopefully others can just bypass these few comments and get back to discussing the Behmor.

Great idea, let's talk about the plus and minus of the Behmor. Let's focus on learning more about it. Let's listen to peoples' successes and failures in roasting attempts (I've had both). Let's get away from condenscending sounding posts which can throw cold water all over what might turn out to be the best new home roaster in years, or maybe a here today, gone tomorrow product.

Ideas are often best discussed with give and take, not push and shove.

[Ken Fox]

Ken, regardless of the number of days I've owned one, I did test it very well in a limited way. I then posted my results over a few days. For me, I can tell pretty much how good or bad something is in a very short period of time. The only thing I can't tell in a short time, is tight controllability and durability. And I think I've said that. And my impressions were only with roasts I actually completed and I structured my 1st impression postings that way also.

For some, huge amounts of testing are needed for them to make conclusions, for me that has never been the way I do things unless it turned out to be necessary. My 1st impressions were designated as just that, never tried to hide it at all. And my testing was done with beans that I roast and use all the time, not some new bean I wasn't very experienced with.

But regardless of how or what I posted, I posted from the point of view of a user with some experience and not as a commentator on something I had absolutely no time with at all.

This will be my last post on this point. I'll leave it alone, feel free to do so yourself. Hopefully others can just bypass these few comments and get back to discussing the Behmor.

Lloyd,

I mean you no harm. But, your posts prove my point. You have owned this thing for 6 or 3 days, and are making enthusiastic posts about it on CG, alt.coffee, and here on HB. You are obviously more enthusiastic about this Behmor roaster you have owned for 6 days, then I am about my heavily hacked thermocouple monitored sample roaster, through which I've run maybe four to five hundred pounds over several years. That's a good thing; home roasting is something I think we should encourage, but we need to temper it with a bit of realism.

I think I am just learning how to roast with this sample roaster; it has taken me years to figure it out and I'm still learning something every day on it. Prior to this sample roaster, I have used a Freshroast+, a Caffe Rosto, and an Alpenrost.

I consider myself a relatively experienced home roaster, but if I was to compare myself to someone who really knows what they are doing, a good professional roaster, I am a rank amateur.

So, when I read enthusiastic posts about some new device that people are waxing eloquent about (on three online sites, no less) after less than one week's ownership, I hope you can appreciate my reluctance to take such posts at face value.

Good night.

ken

[lparsons21]

I haven't had any failures to produce a good roast yet with the Behmor. I have had a couple that ended up lighter, and one darker, than I had intended. In both cases the end product turned out very good. I was surprised at the lighter ones as I tend to do everything FC or more.

I've even given some thought to trying out some lighter-than-city roasts to see what would come out. I've never had luck with them before on any roaster.

Tomorrow is 'give away some coffee' day for me, I'm up to my ears in fresh roasted, way beyond what I usually have laying around. Then some more roasts, some using the profiles I've tracked to see if the repeatability is going to be as good as I think it is, and then with some beans that I've used many times, but not yet on the Behmor to see how they respond to the profiles I have in mind.

[HAL9000]

I'm not going to quote any specific post in this thread, but if anyone thinks they can determine how good someone's taste is from reading forum or usenet posts, you have just disqualified yourself as a discriminating individual as far as I am concerned.

ken

Wha? Don't you realize what this assessment means for your own posts?

!

I like you Ken, and value many of your posts much, but this frankly is crazy.

Get over the Behmor brother! Or at least buy one and try it out and tell us about it, since you are so rich and whatever.

[IMAWriter]

OK...this is obviously nearly 7 months later...as you know, I also had several units to work with. I received my in June, I believe.
Anyway, the P2 profile nearly always has a subdued 1st crack aurally...at least to my ears...
To get the best out of P2...which I like for my espresso blends...using the optional basket with the smaller holes...I recommend using 14oz green by weight....
I'm using P1 for most of SO's other than my Brazilians.
I'll read on as much as I have time for.
By the way, it IS hard to remain dispassionate when a product seems to perform like it's supposed to...and I think the retail price point of the 1600 has a lot to do with engendering enthusiasm. [Dan/Luca, etc...feel free to remove the next comment (in italics)if deemed inappropriate.]
Personally, I believe home roasters have had to over pay for certain roasting devices that offered either smaller capacity than the Behmor, less flexibility, and in some cases no cooling options other than manual. The 3 size options of the Behmor is, to me, a nice feature for espresso blending/post blending purposes.
And yes...the price point HAS to figure in to the equation.
I feel Mr. "McCoffee" has listed his caveats as well as the positives.
other than the true professionals who frequent here, we are all amateurs...with that "puppy dog" sort of enthusiasm. As neither Mike not I(or any other Beta tester of the 1600) received compensation for their/our time, I have no problem with a bit of tempered enthusiasm.
I spent over 100 hours testing...roasting, jotting down, calling Joe whilst I was doing my thing.
My gig was to report back to Joe...as my first version was earlier than yours, Mike.
I'm proud to say (as i mentioned at CG) that a couple of my suggestions were incorporated into the current model.
Is the Behmor a perfect roaster?....Obviously, no, as to make it so would raise the price up to a Sonofresco/Diedrich level.
I'm good at $299.
My test unit is still going strong...nearly two hundred roasts.

[lparsons21]

Lloyd,

I mean you no harm. But, your posts prove my point. You have owned this thing for 6 or 3 days, and are making enthusiastic posts about it on CG, alt.coffee, and here on HB. You are obviously more enthusiastic about this Behmor roaster you have owned for 6 days, then I am about my heavily hacked thermocouple monitored sample roaster, through which I've run maybe four to five hundred pounds over several years. That's a good thing; home roasting is something I think we should encourage, but we need to temper it with a bit of realism.

I think I am just learning how to roast with this sample roaster; it has taken me years to figure it out and I'm still learning something every day on it. Prior to this sample roaster, I have used a Freshroast+, a Caffe Rosto, and an Alpenrost.

I consider myself a relatively experienced home roaster, but if I was to compare myself to someone who really knows what they are doing, a good professional roaster, I am a rank amateur.

So, when I read enthusiastic posts about some new device that people are waxing eloquent about (on three online sites, no less) after less than one week's ownership, I hope you can appreciate my reluctance to take such posts at face value.

Good night.

ken

Peace, Ken. Sometimes posts just hit me the wrong way and I respond a bit harsher than maybe I should.

I've read postings from you on many other subjects, and have always given credence to them because you seemed to have a handle on it. Somehow this thread just brought out something in you (or the way I took it) that just got my dander up a bit.

Here's a little of my experience. A bit over a year of roasting, with FR, Z&D and Gene. Now the Behmor. Usually I roast for FC and beyond and I don't drink straight espresso. Just never acquired the taste for it, not on several trips to Italy and other European countries. I drink Cafe Cremas primarily, Americanos daily and caps.

I like to read what the experts have to say about the beans and such, but oft times don't find myself agreeing with their conclusions. Probably because of different tastes and goals with coffee. Usually I don't express those thoughts in public though.

Good night.

[lparsons21]

Personally, I believe home roasters have had to over pay for certain roasting devices that offered either smaller capacity than the Behmor, less flexibility, and in some cases no cooling options other than manual. The 3 size options of the Behmor is, to me, a nice feature for espresso blending/post blending purposes.
And yes...the price point HAS to figure in to the equation.

I think it is more of an idea that the coffee roasting market could be expanded if only a product came out that was both good enough and inexpensive enough. The earlier home roasters were built with a much smaller market in mind. And with that idea, higher prices would be expected.

Originally the Behmor was to be sold via Ronco best known for cheesy ads for pretty darn good products. They targeted a much broader audience than do the current roaster mfgs do.

Time will tell if there really is a broader market, I certainly hope so.

[Java Man]

Nice to see you posting again, Rick!

With your permission, I'm going to give out your address, as an impartial judge for Behmor roasted coffee

ken

I'll gladly sample the product produced by any Behmor owners in the Vancouver area. You may recall my mini-taste test last year in which my panel of two compared roasts from JJ Beans, my SC/TO, 49th Parallel and Turks (listed from worst to best). Exposure to the competition has improved the quality of my SC/TO roasts, and I'm ready to take on 49th Parallel and Turks for a second round.

On a different topic, I think it's ludicrous to post a "review" of a complex product which you've used for less than 3 months. But I wouldn't classify most of the posts I've read about the Behmor as reviews. They're more like expressions of surprise and delight, which I translate as "holy, crap -- this thing actually works!". And I think the surprise is genuine and perhaps deserved. $300 for a home roaster that will roast up to a lb. of green would be remarkable. Of course, I await the blind taste tests to see just how remarkable it really is.

Rick

[Ken Fox]

I think it is more of an idea that the coffee roasting market could be expanded if only a product came out that was both good enough and inexpensive enough.

There is a history to this approach. This is exactly what Zach and Dani's (?sp?) wanted to do a couple of years ago, but did not succeed at, and they were selling a much cheaper roaster.

I personally do not think there is a mass market to be "had." If there is, I think $300 is way above the price point that could develop it.

ken

[Ken Fox]

I'll gladly sample the product produced by any Behmor owners in the Vancouver area. You may recall my mini-taste test last year in which my panel of two compared roasts from JJ Beans, my SC/TO, 49th Parallel and Turks (listed from worst to best). Exposure to the competition has improved the quality of my SC/TO roasts, and I'm ready to take on 49th Parallel and Turks for a second round.

On a different topic, I think it's ludicrous to post a "review" of a complex product which you've used for less than 3 months. But I wouldn't classify most of the posts I've read about the Behmor as reviews. They're more like expressions of surprise and delight, which I translate as "holy, crap -- this thing actually works!". And I think the surprise is genuine and perhaps deserved. $300 for a home roaster that will roast up to a lb. of green would be remarkable. Of course, I await the blind taste tests to see just how remarkable it really is.

Rick

THREE MONTHS? That's nearly an eternity! Wait THREE WHOLE MONTHS?

You must be joking

ken

[lparsons21]

There is a history to this approach. This is exactly what Zach and Dani's (?sp?) wanted to do a couple of years ago, but did not succeed at, and they were selling a much cheaper roaster.

I personally do not think there is a mass market to be "had." If there is, I think $300 is way above the price point that could develop it.

ken

I didn't say it would be successful in that...

The Z&D does too small a load to be really attractive. But 1 lb is about the size people buy coffee now.

But like you, I'm not sure a big market exists either. $300 is a bit above mass-market pricing, but not by much. I'm just not sure you can convince people to roast coffee at home, at least not the soccer moms and such.

[IMAWriter]

I'll gladly sample the product produced by any Behmor owners in the Vancouver area. You may recall my mini-taste test last year in which my panel of two compared roasts from JJ Beans, my SC/TO, 49th Parallel and Turks (listed from worst to best). Exposure to the competition has improved the quality of my SC/TO roasts, and I'm ready to take on 49th Parallel and Turks for a second round.

On a different topic, I think it's ludicrous to post a "review" of a complex product which you've used for less than 3 months. But I wouldn't classify most of the posts I've read about the Behmor as reviews. They're more like expressions of surprise and delight, which I translate as "holy, crap -- this thing actually works!". And I think the surprise is genuine and perhaps deserved. $300 for a home roaster that will roast up to a lb. of green would be remarkable. Of course, I await the blind taste tests to see just how remarkable it really is.

Rick

Rick...I beta tested the Behmor over 7 months...in fact, I'm STILL testing it!
As far as the comment about "complex products"...the whole point of the Behmor, I believe, is that it can be as SIMPLE, or as complex as you choose. Though not "set it and forget it," it can easily be used by the noobiest of noobs. Yes, working with the unit for a time will certainly bring it's own rewards, as does any thing coffee oriented.
I can honestly say I didn't CONSISTENTLY pull good espresso shots for the first 4-5 months of ownership of my Anita and Mazzer SJ.
But I can tell you, I had a handle on the Behmor after 4 or 5 roasts. Not a perfect grip, but a confident grasp.
I too enjoy many of Ken's posts, but his enthusiasm for all things Cimbali seem somewhat prejudiced...and he has a right to feel that way...they make a terrific line of gear...but to put someone else down in that patronizing sort of way...I'm sure he was jumping up and down with happiness with his purchases, and they cost a whole hellava lot more than does the 1600. I invite anyone who has a problem with HONEST enthusiasm to uncheck the notification box. When i communicate with my friends here, I WILL NOT CURB MY ENTHUSIASM. That's why we have moderators.
The sort of snickering tone from some folks here concerning posts regarding the Behmor are somewhat self serving. I don't work for Joe or his company.....If I had charged for my labor (and trust me I charge pretty good), Joe would owe me a WHOLE lot more than a test roaster. In fact....my model is the last pre-production one. I have not asked for a production model, nor do I want one.....until the one I have finally gives up the ghost....whenever that is.
Lets all lighten up here. I have no agenda...in fact, i still occasionally grab my SC/UFO combo rig...if only to get "hands on" a bit more....
For me, it's all about education, especially for those who have already purchased a Behmor.
I'm done here, unless anyone has a question regarding the operation of this device.