Behmor 1600 Coffee Roaster - 1st Look - Page 7

[JonR10]

My experience with the Behmor roaster has been positive overall. It has positive and negative aspects just like everything else in creation....in this case I would love to have more direct control over the heaters coupled with bean mass temperature measurement capability.

I have had a few (BAD) roasts that I will lovingly call "learning experiences". Honestly, the learning curve has been more gentle than it was for me with the other roasters I've used. By varying the bean load and playing with profile settings and adjusting times (I only use P1, P2 and P3) I am getting results that are satisfactory (to me), and some roasts have been outstanding IMO (the Misty Valley was amazing).

I've been roasting for about 4 years and it's been a great experience for me. I enjoy learning more about the bean and of course learning what tastes good to me for drip/presspot coffee and espresso. I don't claim to be on a par with the finer professionals out there, but I can honestly say I prefer my own roasts to most that I've tried.

I do not have discriminating tastes when it comes to wine (whine?), but I know what I like and what I don't. So I cannot say if my tastes are well-developed compared to some others....but I absolutely do taste differences distinctly both in espresso and other coffee preparations, even small differences from my own roast variations. This is how I experiment and learn what works best for my tastes.


I very much appreciate that people have different experiences and different opinions. Just as with other topics I give little credibility to strong opinions posted by those with no personal experience, but that is the natuire of online fora. As I say, this is no different for this subject than any other.

Overall, I think this new roaster has some very positive qualities and already it seems to have coaxed many fledgeling roasters into the fold. Will they all make beautiful roasts every time? Hell no. But that's all part of the learning process. I have had a whole lot of "learning experiences" roasting over the years and I expect to have plenty more. It's all part of the path we walk, it's all good.

[Ken Fox]

But I also think that those with exactly zero experience with the machine are not the ones to look to for valid information either.

That's true, if the person making the statements is simply pontificating about what he or she thinks. We see the same thing here often on HB, which is usually labeled as a "thought experiment" of limited or no value.

I have zero personal experience with this device, but I do have 3 friends I respect (a lot) who do have experience with it and whose comments I have repeated without attribution. Since well-known and well-respected individuals such as these 3 have taken a pass on publicly commenting, one is left with what one has, e.g. the lovefest.

For better or worse (probably worse at this point) I've inserted myself in this discussion because of what I have been told, and which I have not seen stated directly by these three people or other people of similar online stature. At this point, however, I have basically said what I have to say about this device and would prefer not to have to repeat it again (which unfortunately I am apt to do if I get called again directly or indirectly on it, otherwise I'd be glad to just let this part of the conversation die and readers can take whatever they wish from it).

ken

[mike]

One has only to go back 2 or 3 years, and this was very much the case with the Rancilio Silvia. I don't know exactly how many experienced and accomplished home baristas have told me that they believe the Silvia produces inferior results, on average, to a good E61 or single group commercial HX machine, but it has been a lot. And this is even in the best of hands. Yet, if you were to post that on alt.coffee several years ago, you would have been crucified. Now, such comments are being made frequently on HB, in part because some of the biggest boosters of the Silvia have themselves moved on to more substantial machines.
ken

As I mentioned earlier, my personal Silvia monster just hit the counter, and I found myself going back through some old Schecter posts to review the work he did back in 2002! I think the folks who weren't afraid to look at the flaws from the beginning actually came out with something pretty amazing. Slapping a PID on it, and then shimming the OPV value to tweak the pressure? I mean, come on.... As much as some folks wouldn't want to admit it, a tweaked Silvia can produce as well on shots as many stock machines costing 3x as much. Point being, there are a lot of products out there that are a couple optimizations from running with the big boys. And there is a lot of very overpriced, overhyped gear out there too.

On the Behmor there is a clear difference in what Joe wanted to do with the machine, and what an over the edge power user will want. I think Ken and I agree that if I ever get around to it, direct control of the heating elements might just be the final optimization to make this really sing.

Silvia in stock mode was a complete pain in the rear to get a decent shot out of, and boy, I remember what Ken refers to - there were a lot of crap shots being poured out of that machine, but people didn't want to hear it. I think the Behmor by comparison is a heck of a lot closer.

Remember also guys: if somebody is buying stale old beans out of a bin somewhere, or god forbid, stale preground, just about anything home-roasted is going to taste better.

It might have been Ken, but I do recall somebody saying that the best way to optimize your espresso was roasting your own. More than equipment, technique, etc. I've been saying the same thing in similar words for the last few years. I appreciate more than ever being able to learn from folks how to roast better, to me it has had payoff far in excess of any amount of money that I could put into a machine.

[Ken Fox]

I do recall somebody saying that the best way to optimize your espresso was roasting your own. More than equipment, technique, etc. I've been saying the same thing in similar words for the last few years. I appreciate more than ever being able to learn from folks how to roast better, to me it has had payoff far in excess of any amount of money that I could put into a machine.

I DO believe this to be true. I also believe, that for most individuals who want to do this in the cheapest and easiest fashion, a cheap air roaster or popper is the way to go. Sure, you are batch-size limited, but the batches go by fast and the problems with these things are easily dealt with. Variacs are cheap and with very little effort one can learn how to get very decent roasts from a Freshroast, popper, Caffe Rosto, or the other ones.

If you contrast this with what you have to do with any of the more expensive home roasting solutions (except for a BBQ drum, which is in a whole 'nother category of roaster), the small home air roaster is the easiest and cheapest solution. It does require some effort but the effort is rewarded.

By contrast, it is hard to "learn" how to operate something like an Alp, or a Hottop, or a Behmor, because these things are designed to be automatic and in order to have any control, to overcome their limitations, requires using the devices in ways they were not designed for. The Hottop is furthest along in the path of being an automatic set it and forget it type of home roaster, but on balance I'm not sure it is really a cost effective solution for most people.

ken

[lparsons21]

I DO believe this to be true. I also believe, that for most individuals who want to do this in the cheapest and easiest fashion, a cheap air roaster or popper is the way to go. Sure, you are batch-size limited, but the batches go by fast and the problems with these things are easily dealt with. Variacs are cheap and with very little effort one can learn how to get very decent roasts from a Freshroast, popper, Caffe Rosto, or the other ones.

If you contrast this with what you have to do with any of the more expensive home roasting solutions (except for a BBQ drum, which is in a whole 'nother category of roaster), the small home air roaster is the easiest and cheapest solution. It does require some effort but the effort is rewarded.

By contrast, it is hard to "learn" how to operate something like an Alp, or a Hottop, or a Behmor, because these things are designed to be automatic and in order to have any control, to overcome their limitations, requires using the devices in ways they were not designed for. The Hottop is furthest along in the path of being an automatic set it and forget it type of home roaster, but on balance I'm not sure it is really a cost effective solution for most people.

ken

I'm not sure I agree about the hot-air roasters. Yes they are quick and fairly easy, until you want something other than a very bright roast. For the people wanting to spend lots of time figuring out how to slow the roast a bit and fiddle, that is fine. But they don't hit the casual roaster very well, imo. Unless they just happen to like all their roasts bright.

While I have no direct experience with the Hottop, at $900 for the only version I would consider, it isn't going to attract anyone except the most demanding of roasters, willing to fork over big bucks for one. I would love to have one, but I'm not willing to spend that much on a roaster.

For those that like controlling every little aspect of the roast, the Behmor isn't going to be a great solution as it comes out of the box. I've seen that some here think that fiddling with things can make the Behmor more controllable, and that's fine and if it turns out to be true, then it will be great. But it takes away from what it is designed for. And that is simple roasting for not a lot of money. The more I use the Behmor, the more convinced I become that it is designed for easy, relatively quick roasting for not a lot of money. More suited for the casual roaster than the semi-pro.

I know that was one of the goals I wanted to meet with the Behmor, the other was being able to do larger roasts. If I wanted to tweak and fiddle during the roast, I could keep on using the Gene Cafe as it is the most flexible of all the home roasters, imo. Most likely when I do want an exacting roast done, the Gene will be what I use. But the Behmor will be the one I use the most.

[prof_stack]

Nice lively discussions today.

Its too early to call the jury and ask for their verdict on the Behmor. There is a lot more evidence to consider.

Or in real-speak, many more roasts need to be done, more data collected, and commentary to come from those with actual hands-on time with the Behmor. Durability needs to determined. Service and technical assistance should be reported. Etc, etc.

Then get some cupping results from roasts done with the 1600.

Maybe even have a HB roaster comparison like the lever machines and the grinders. Let's see: Hottop, Gene, Behmor, iRoast, Freshroast, TO/SC, Poppery I (with mods). You could also do a baseline Probat or sample roaster in the mix.

Easy for me to say! But it would be interesting and might just open some minds.

[happytamper]

I have been now using the Behmor for about a month. I have been roasting using a Caffe Rosto for the past two years. Generally blending 2/3 Panama and 1/3 Yirg.

To do this I used to roast three batches in the Rosto, two Panama and one Yirg. Now i roast 1/2 lb panama and 1/4 lb yirg in the behmor in two roasts.

Observations so far.

The Behmor roasts are best when left for a few days to develop. Rostos are ready to drink quicker.

Rosto roasts seem to have more body and aroma. Behmor roasts have less body and aroma but seem to have a brighter, (cleaner) taste.

So far my roasts be hmor (lol) with the Rosto but I have not given up because I do have more experience with a Rosto and given the investment in the Behmor I want to give it a chance to impress me further.

But I have to add, I have enjoyed the coffee roasted in the Behmor. It is definitely different. I will know in a few more months of use whether I could say it was a move up from the Rosto.

A few things I like,

The Behmor is very quiet. A pleasure to roast with.
The larger roast batches are great since I roast for my students and need quite a bit if beans every week.
Less smoke then the Rosto though I still need to use it in front of and exhaust vent.


A few things I dislike,

Visibility of roast. Looking through the window is fine but how can you see the color against the bright red light of the heating elements. On the Rosto there was clear visibilty but a bit more difficulty hearing the cracks over the very loud blowing motor.

Control panel. Don't get me started. I am really looking forward to a more logical interface. The percentage changes with the addition of time here or there is just plain confusing. I simply do not understand why it was not designed with manual choices of times/heat levels, as well as programs as a suggestion for people who wanted to just follow a recipe. (I hope when this becomes available It will be offered at a discount to the first buyers of the Behmor.)

All this being said I am enjoying my $300.00 quiet drum roaster and I am sure my roasts will improve with time and experience.

notes:
1. My students did not notice any difference in the coffee on each roaster and still look forward to it.
2. I roasted with the Rosto to compare and ended up really appreciating the quiet Behmor.

I also have to mention that it is a whole different approach to a fluid air roaster and takes a bit of time to get used to.

Congrats to Joe for bringing an affordable drum roaster. Shortcomings can always be found in a coffee community such as ours. I hope he takes them in stride and uses all of this to make the next generation even better.

[mike]

Just a quick observation.

Posts are starting to divide along philosophy lines of:

"Can it be made to do what we want?" vs. "I'm happy with what it can do"

Personally, I'm not really ready to throw in the towel in regard to whether this roaster can be tweaked to do some remarkable things for the price. And all due respect to Joe, if in the process I take off from his design goal to reach mine, I think that is OK. But debating which philosophy is valid won't be productive.

I'm personally a bit terrified of the concept of a "set it and forget it" philosophy of roasting, esp since there are so many variations when roasting on a given day, and the price of a significant mistake is fire. Also, there are, a large number of little roasters that can be used to impress family and friends with "home roasted coffee" at a much lower price than the Behmor. I suppose "set it and forget it" can be done on the Behmor, but the results are going to be light roasts (for safety) and pretty variable. I much prefer the way that most of us are using this machine, standing over it smelling, looking, hearing what is going on and aiming to get the roast we want.

There's not much use in really pursuing this divide though. If people are happy and don't want to see if they can do better, they probably will lead a less stressful life But, for those of us who want to see if by controlling the heaters we can get something at 10% of a sample roaster's price that will perform to 90% of a sample roaster's potential, well, then there is some fun in that.

I've had some plumbing issues with the Silvia (darn builder grade ice maker outlet valve that Lino and I had to replace), plus I've still got to cut the water debit, and I'd like to get through some of the 20lbs of green that Lino brought before I potentially break the machine by opening it up. Honestly I've not even looked to see how to get in the machine. But, based on comments that Joe made about using a variac on ONLY the heating coils if the aim is to control the roast, I suspect there must be a realitively simple way to access the coils. And I'll need to find a variac (unless somebody here would like to send me a spare they have). I'm also not going to rule out contacting Joe directly for a small bit of guidance, but I know he is busy.

[JonR10]

I'm also not going to rule out contacting Joe directly for a small bit of guidance, but I know he is busy.

Shoot him a quick email with your phone number...if he's not too busy I'll bet he calls you

[lparsons21]

Just a quick observation.

Posts are starting to divide along philosophy lines of:

"Can it be made to do what we want?" vs. "I'm happy with what it can do"

Personally, I'm not really ready to throw in the towel in regard to whether this roaster can be tweaked to do some remarkable things for the price. And all due respect to Joe, if in the process I take off from his design goal to reach mine, I think that is OK. But debating which philosophy is valid won't be productive.

I hope there is no real 'divide', because I want both. I like the idea and possibility that I might be able to throw in a lb of Colombian or Bolivian for my every day Americano, but I also like the possibility that I can fiddle a bit with the machine so I can get that little different roast.

While I most likely won't go to variacs and such because it just isn't something I want to do, I know that I'll often fiddle with the various settings and adjust the weight of the load sometimes. I'll also enjoy reading about those that do want to really push the envelope on this roaster, if for no other reason than curiousity.

[Ken Fox]

Just a quick observation.

Posts are starting to divide along philosophy lines of:

"Can it be made to do what we want?" vs. "I'm happy with what it can do"


There's not much use in really pursuing this divide though. If people are happy and don't want to see if they can do better, they probably will lead a less stressful life But, for those of us who want to see if by controlling the heaters we can get something at 10% of a sample roaster's price that will perform to 90% of a sample roaster's potential, well, then there is some fun in that.

Many home roasters make a value determination based upon how much a roaster costs vs. the weight of coffee it will roast. The small cheap air roasters tend to roast 2 or 4, maybe 6 oz. per batch. The next level of roaster, costing anywhere from several hundred dollars to a thousand (souped up Hottop) typically roasts around 8 oz. or so per batch. In order to get to larger weights of green coffee per batch, one typically either needs to buy a commercial (sample or other) roaster, or to build something themselves, the latter category including BBQ roasters.

The Behmor, according to its advance billing, can roast 16oz of green at a cost of $300. On its face, this sounds like a huge bargain and no doubt accounts for the interest and sales it has generated.

If you look at other devices and products in other categories, it is not uncommon to see a novel device come in to the marketplace which purports to offer huge value compared to the competition. One has to look no further than such items as home audio, home theater, mechanical wristwatches, cars, probably even tennis rackets and golf clubs, to find parallels to what the Behmor is attempting to do.

Generally speaking, these "bargain priced new entry" products have to cut corners in important areas, because in a competitive market, there are reasons why, for example, a sample roaster costs $2500 (or more) and a Hottop costs $600 or $1000. The "new entrant product" may have some novel ways of providing value for a given price, but it still has to deal with the same costs of design, production, shipping, etc., that the established products have to live with.

When all the dust settles regarding the Behmor, it is very unlikely (in my view) that this will turn out to be a great roaster that can reliably roast 16 oz of green at a price of $300. The design limitations that prevent this are pretty obvious to anyone who has read any of the Behmor threads; roasting 16oz takes too long and the speed of cooling is way too slow.

But what if the Behmor, with some modification, could reliably roast 8 oz, at a price of $300? It would still represent real value and if it proves to be reliable and durable, it would be a good choice for people who had reasonable expectations for what $300 would buy in a home roasting device.

ken

[JonR10]

At this point, however, I have basically said what I have to say about this device and would prefer not to have to repeat it again (which unfortunately I am apt to do if I get called again directly or indirectly on it, otherwise I'd be glad to just let this part of the conversation die and readers can take whatever they wish from it).

Perhaps your position has changed, and now you've decided to address the value of a product you've never seen in person.

Generally speaking, these "bargain priced new entry" products have to cut corners in important areas, because in a competitive market, there are reasons why, for example, a sample roaster costs $2500 (or more) and a Hottop costs $600 or $1000.

And in SOME cases, prices that are set are artifically inflated by collaborative pricing efforts between major players (in my view somewhat unethical, but it happens). In such cases pricing isn't any indication of quality construction, more often it's a sign of the "bend you over because we don't have any real competition and we CAN" philosophy. Of course nobody is saying that's the case with these roasters....

IMvHO only someone who has seen and used different brands could make a fair comparison of build quality and value for the $. I've seen some posts from Gene Cafe and HotTop users with pro's and cons's but I've not seen any glaring "roaster A is much better built than roaster B" statements about any of them and since my experience doesn't include the other home drum roasters I can't offer an opinion.

But I suppose only time will tell if the Behmor is a good value at $300.
It certainly has produced alot of interesting conversations already!

[Ken Fox]

Perhaps your position has changed, and now you've decided to address the value of a product you've never seen in person.

Actually, a closer reading of my post might show you that my post wasn't specifically about the Behmor but rather about new entrant products in already crowded categories, at lower price points, purporting to offer value. The Behmor is such a product, as I tried to explain clearly in my post.

When people start taking personal affront at comments about a product that they have purchased, discussions become futile and fruitless, as this one is becoming.

ken

[lparsons21]

I prefer to think that in pricing and marketing, there are two philosophies at work here. Maybe the producers of the Gene and Hottop see the market as a very limited one, with no real expansion possible. That would keep the prices up as it usually does in a highly specialized marketplace.

But given that the initial marketing plan was to sell the Behmor via Ronco, it seems that Joe and others felt there was a broader market available if the price and performance was right. Hence lower pricing to entice some into the fray.

As to durability, yes it is all guesswork about how long it will hold up. But if you look at it critically, there are hints to what to expect. Quartz heating tubes have been around a long time with a good track record of reliability. The 'rotisserie' and fan motors look to be off-the-shelf items, and frankly we've been making those for a heck of a long time and using them in all kinds of 'bad' places with good results. The afterburner seems to be just a heater, so I would expect that to hold up pretty good. All these are big pluses for the idea that durability should be very good.

The only questions left, imo, are the controls and sensors. Not being an expert in roasters, but having worked on electronics for many years in very much less than desirable areas, heat is generally the problem with these parts. It seems that because of the location of the controls that little heat is actually getting to them, so assuming these are quality parts to begin with, they should last quite awhile.

Because of these things, I think it will hold up quite well for a long period of time. Of course, in a few months or years, we'll all know if I'm just full of it or not.

[Ken Fox]

Because of these things, I think it will hold up quite well for a long period of time. Of course, in a few months or years, we'll all know if I'm just full of it or not.

If there is a design flaw or limitation that causes these roasters to die early, it will take both a large "installed base" plus some period of time to observe this. There are parallels in other coffee equipment that immediately spring to mind, such as the relay that dies in (at least earlier models of) the Pasquini Livia, plus the hard rubber bottoms of earlier models of the Freshroast. Online venues such as this one very much reduce the amount of time it takes for people to make such observations, which will undoubtedly be true of this roaster.

ken

[JonR10]

When people start taking personal affront at comments about a product that they have purchased, discussions become futile and fruitless, as this one is becoming.

Hmm....interesting. I have no emotional attachment to other's opinions about equipment I own.
I can usually decide for myself if I am happy with my stuff.

In this case my concern is about well-respected folks posting very strong opinions on equipment they have never seen, or tested (or tasted?). Ken - you may say that post wasn't specifically about the Behmor, but of course you did mention it by name. And you can say you don't want to be "Mr Behmor basher" but the majority of your posts in this thread contradict that.

Ken, alot of people respect your opinion (with good reason). Believe it or not, I am one of those people and I commonly refer to other posts you've made and I have benefitted personally from some of the research and testing work you have posted. (Thanks for all of that btw)


For me, $300 is not alot of money but for some folks it certainly is. So I don't mind being a guinea pig, and I figure I'm a good little piggie because I roast more volume than the average home roaster (according to many posts I've seen). My personal "home" consumption is only about 1-2 pounds per week but I also roast an additional 2-3 pounds per week for relatives and for my office mates. So I commonly roast 4-5 pounds per week.

Honestly, I have considered getting a BBQ setup to do the larger quantities for my family, friends and coworkers...but in the meantime I am going to see how this product holds up to my usage. I make no claims about the build quality or longevity relative to other roasters and I'll reserve comment until I see for myself.

All I can say with certainty is that I've been through a few TO tops in the last few years. Hopefully this unit will hold up well but as I said already, only time will tell.

[lparsons21]

Well back to something about the results with the Behmor vs the philosophy and such...

Here's a couple of roasts I did that turned out well.

#1 - 1/28/2008 - SM Classic Italian Espresso 1/2# load
Settings : 1/2#, P4, D, 6+'s

I did this the other day and it went a bit beyond Vienna, but this blend likes dark so it wasn't an issue. I did get a light show from it, but I never felt I was in danger of a fire. After a few days, this was the best I've ever gotten from this blend. And one of the nice things about this blend is that it is good as an espresso, Cafe Crema, Americano or
in Caps and Lattes. Very nice.

I think that 4+'s would have been the right spot as I did end up stopping it before it shifted to automatic cooldown. Unfortunately I didn't log this well and my timings weren't logged.

#2 : DP Sidamo 1/2# load
Settings : 1/2 lb, P1, B and 2 +'s at the 1 minute left mark

This produced a beautiful FC roast. The reason I added the 2 +'s was I didn't think it was going to get into 2nd crack at all. It was the right choice as I let it go to the automatic completion.

For info 1st crack occured 10:17 into the roast and 2nd happened with 0:50 left in the roast after the two +'s were added.

[Java Man]

Actually, a closer reading of my post might show you that my post wasn't specifically about the Behmor but rather about new entrant products in already crowded categories, at lower price points, purporting to offer value. The Behmor is such a product, as I tried to explain clearly in my post.

I don't see it that way. The home roaster category isn't much like the well-developed product categories in which the phenomenon you described is most common. If anything, I'd call it a new product category which, until recently, has attracted little or no attention from experienced appliance companies with the kind of quality assurance and value engineering skills that only long production runs develop.

Enter the Behmor, which looks as though it incorporates a few genuine breakthrough innovations. The current model may be one or two iterations away from being a truly well-developed "appliance", but it looks as though it has set a new benchmark for other manufacturers of home roasters.

There certainly are criticisms of the long duration of 1 lb roasts and the slow cooling, but as we often said on alt.coffee, never mind the specs -- what's in the cup? I'm interested in whether any of the other home roasting appliances available produce better results in the cup in blind taste tests, and in how Behmor roasts stand up to those produced by commercial roasters. But maybe that would take the sport out of these discussions?

Rick

[Ken Fox]

There certainly are criticisms of the long duration of 1 lb roasts and the slow cooling, but as we often said on alt.coffee, never mind the specs -- what's in the cup? I'm interested in whether any of the other home roasting appliances available produce better results in the cup in blind taste tests, and in how Behmor roasts stand up to those produced by commercial roasters. But maybe that would take the sport out of these discussions?

Rick

Nice to see you posting again, Rick!

With your permission, I'm going to give out your address, as an impartial judge for Behmor roasted coffee

ken

[HAL9000]

FWIW I consider JonR10, despite his humility, a very good source for taste comparisons. He has roasted his own for years in the various contraptions that many others have tried, and has not been reluctant to purchase roasted beans from many of the popular sources as well. Now he has a Behmor, and some nice things to say about it. Given his past experience with his own efforts and professionally roasted beans, I think his commentary is at least as valuable as that of any unnamed sources who are not willing to post their thoughts in public.

Disclosure: I have a Behmor and am very happy with it so far, having roasted in a Poppery with a high-end PID, heat controlled with an SCR and airflow controlled with a variac, for a couple of years now. I don't pretend to have any kind of palate worthy of admiration, but the fact is that I like the coffee I get from the Behmor very much. I have much better control over the roast profile in the Poppery setup, but have no plans to go back, unless the Behmor falls apart.

Reading all of these forums and alt.coffee for a few years I convinced myself that minute control of the roast was important. But having recently seen a one bag roast done in a Probat operated by a very highly regarded local roaster, and noticing the relative lack of process feedback involved, I came to a much different outlook on the need for tight controls. I mean, you might as well PID a steak, or a roast, or an over easy egg. But of course no one does that. Instead we learn to cook these things by sight, smell, taste, and cumulative experience. IMHO coffee is no different.

Just my $.02, not meaning to offend anyone!

Cheers,
Paul