Beginner Vetrano/Compak K3 Elite user with issues..

[Kat]

Hi everyone! I am having problems and need some general guidance.

The grinder has been set at several different settings, between 34 - 40. It is now set at 36.5.

We are doing a cooling flush before shots, but don't have a thermometer on the brew group. Also, we're using a bottomless portafilter.

Espresso is more of a syrupy consistency at this point, but taste remains somewhat bitter and the volume is very low (maybe a little more than .5 oz). The crema seems to look good at first, and I am trying to end the shot when I start to see light tan coloring. We're using Black Cat coffee at the moment, after having already gone thru a pound of Machristay from Chris' Coffee since yesterday.

I really appreciate any and all advice. If I should be posting these questions on another forum, would someone please let me know? Thanks in advance.

Kathy

[HB]

You can read specific suggestions on the flush regime in the Buyer's Guide to the Quickmill Vetrano. I would start by grinding coarser until the pour is around 1.5 to 2.0 ounces in 25-30 seconds. A mere 0.5 ounce indicates the grind way, way too fine, or you're dosing way, way too much (an inexpensive 0.1 gram accuracy scale would be a good investment). Such a slow extraction is certain to be bitter...

[Kat]

We'll get started in that direction. Thanks so much for the advice Dan!

[miKe mcKoffee]

Such a slow extraction is certain to be bitter...

Curious why you say this. A ristretto is a slow extraction and tends towards sweeter not bitter. Even double basket 45sec 0.5oz super tight ristretto can be super sweet not bitter. (and very little flavor definition) That would be if temperature managed properly of course. Did you mean on (some) HX machines with a slow extraction shot temperature may rise during the shot compared to a normale causing shot to go bitter if boiler pressure too high and/or start of shot temp too high?

[RapidCoffee]

An addendum to Dan's post:

Your cooling flush will be shorter than what is shown in the video, due to the higher max flow rate of the Vetrano's rotary pump. I usually flush for just a second or two after the stream settles down. The exceptionally quiet Fluid-O-Tek pump makes it simple to monitor the water dance by sound as well as by sight. Visual monitoring is easier with a bottomless PF or (even better) the PF removed briefly from the grouphead.

Dose and grind are critical factors in espresso shot preparation. It's probably best to start with a standard dose (16-18g is a level dose on my double basket), and adjust the grind to achieve a 25-30 second pour. Ideally you will get at least 1.5oz by the time the stream starts to blond significantly. Pay little attention to the grind settings marked on the Compak dial; you'll need to readjust the grind slightly with every change of coffee, dose, phase of the moon, earth gravitational shifts, sunspot activity, etc.

The brew temp will impact upon the taste as well. Once you have the grind and dose dialed in for a 25-30 second shot, start playing around with flush volume and recovery time. Too bitter? Flush a bit more and/or wait a few seconds less before pulling a shot. Too sour? Flush a bit less and/or wait longer before pulling the shot.

You've got some great gear. I'm sure you'll be in espresso nirvana before long.

[HB]

Curious why you say this. A ristretto is a slow extraction and tends towards sweeter not bitter. Even double basket 45sec 0.5oz super tight ristretto can be super sweet not bitter.

Super tight indeed! Admittedly, I haven't intentionally pulled many 0.5 ounce double ristrettos. If the blend was designed with ultra ristrettos in mind (i.e., very low acidity), why not, but not all coffees are sweeter when pulled so restricted and theses days I'm drinking more fruity, acidic blends and less "chocolate bomb" blends that favor shorter extractions. For a beginner, I recommend something closer to a standard double, i.e., 1.5 to 2.0 ounces in around 25 seconds.

[miKe mcKoffee]

For the past two years I've focused little on ristrettos myself and definitely not primarily into limited taste profile chocolate bombs. However, acidity and ristretto are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For instance even SO coffees like a WP Yirg' or Panama Esmeralda can make a bright and yet sweet ristretto. Agreed best not attempted by beginners! Get a good consistent grip on the standard normale pull first with a somewhat tame blend or SO then play with extremes.

Since this is to a large extent a learning teaching site I had a problem understanding the intent and meaning of the statement "Such a slow extraction is certain to be bitter..." which IMO is certainly not necessarily true.

[Kat]

Okay, we have very close to 2 oz. in 30 seconds now...the taste and smell was actually pretty good with no bitterness. Success! We'll work on our flush/recover time now.

I am a bit confused about how the color should look just before ending the shot. I could possibly be ending the shots too early because of my interpretation of "blonde". Does the shot also get thinner and watery at this point?

Thanks so much for the help guys!

[HB]

I could possibly be ending the shots too early because of my interpretation of "blonde". Does the shot also get thinner and watery at this point?

Absolutely. The video quizzes When did this espresso extraction go blond? and slow motion espresso extraction ask this question. You're right, the color and the viscosity are indicators; the "cone collapse" is an unmistakable transition point, though I recommend dividing the extraction into thirds and tasting them to better understand what each phase contributes. On a related note, Andy's Taste at the end of extraction questions the often-repeated advice that the blondish extract at the end of an espresso extraction ruins a shot by making it bitter. This is a good opportunity to put it to the test...

[cannonfodder]

I assume you are using a double basket with 14ish grams of coffee and not a single basket. With a single basket, 0.5-1.0 ounce would be normal. 0.5 from a double would be a uber tight shot, one ounce is about as tight as I go from a double basket.

[Kat]

Actually Dave, I was using the double basket with around 21 grams of coffee when we got the .5 oz shot. It appears we were using too heavy of a dose. We are staying consistent with 18 grams now, and getting closer to 2 oz. Coffee is still bitter at times. I think I pulled a couple of good shots tonite, which is definitely better, just not consistent. We are working more on the cooling flush and recovery time now.

I tried separating the shot as I think Dan suggested, just so we could see what the beginning and end of the shot contributed taste wise. Amazing taste difference. The end of the shot was not too good, while the beginning of it was tolerable. Something else I noticed is that as soon as a shot is finished, I take a whiff and it smells bitter, possibly burned but not sure; then I swirl it around in the cup just a bit, then take another whiff and it doesn't smell near as strong. Wonder what's up with that?

I am dying to totally rid our espressos of the bitterness and taste the chocolate everyone raves about with Black Cat....actually the expert advice we have gotten on here just today has made a big difference. It's hard to know where to start when there are so many variables, and it's wonderful to have direction!

Kathy

[cannonfodder]

Espresso will lay in layers inside the cup with the heavier, syrupy portion lying at the bottom of the cup with the lighter end of the shot floating on top. Some of the pros have the judge's swirl or stir the cup before drinking to mix the layers together. The other possibility is that you your brew temperature is a bit too high and the tail end of the shot is getting burnt. 21 grams of coffee is a lot for a double basket, you are in triple basket range with that much. 14-18 grams in more in the 'normal' range but each machine is a little different. One may work good with 18 grams of coffee in a double basket, while another may give you a meltdown shot from lack of headspace but work good with 16 grams. You just have to try a range and see what works best for your machine and coffee blend.