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Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!

Beginner or pro barista, all are invited to share.

Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:28 am

The beginning of this week I took delivery of my new Compak K10 WBC conical grinder, an event that is only tangentially related to what I am posting about in this thread. I say "tangentially related," because I had waited for the arrival of this grinder before trying out reducing the dose of coffee I use in espresso making. This is a topic that Jim Schulman and Andy Schecter have written about previously (Jim much more than Andy :P ), and in preparation for playing around with this I ordered some lower volume portafilter (PF) baskets, plus a couple of accurate gram scales.

I've posted a little bit about this in the Titan Grinder Project thread, however I think this topic deserves its own thread which is why I'm starting this thread HERE. For the record, all the stuff that Jim and Andy have done on solubles extraction with different grinders and at different doses, is "interesting," however entirely beyond the point, and I won't refer to it further, here. I must however credit Jim and Andy (and others) with bringing these topics to the fore, in the first place. There is not an original idea that I've had about this, which is not derivative of something that they and others have written on this topic, including what I have put into this post.

What I mean to address here are the practical issues, not the science, not possible explanations, "just the facts," that each and every person reading this can test for themselves and see if it works for them; I think it will.

The two main grinders I have been using the last few months are Cimbali Max grinders, which have a hybrid design with both conical and planar burr sets. These are not commonly being imported into North America, however they are destined to be somewhat modified and imported directly in the near future. The new grinder, which I received the beginning of this week, is a straight conical (the Compak, above). I believe that my observations would however apply to any decent espresso-capable grinder, regardless of whether it is based on conical or planar burrs.

What I have been doing during the last week is dosing 14g into the portafilters, as opposed to the 18 or 19g I used to use routinely. I originally thought I could do this with lower volume double baskets, but this has turned out to be impossible since these will hold 17g at the rim rather than the 14 or 15g I had assumed. So, I went to plan "b" which was to use my gram scale accurate to 1/10g, by dosing into a ceramic ramekin which I'd preweighed and then "tare-ed" the scale to rezero it. Once 14g or thereabouts was in the ramekin, I transferred the coffee with a Teaspoon into the PF basket, which turns out to be much easier than it sounds, with the last bit out of the ramekin being literally poured directly into the PF. Then, I take the spoon and quickly distribute it in the basket, then quickly tamp, then pull the shot. The whole process takes very little more time than dosing directly into the PF.

Dosing from the grinders into the ramekin eliminates mess around the grinder, which saves time on clean up. Precisely weighing the dose going into the PF more or less eliminates "sink" and other compromised shots, so in the end the whole process in reality, in a home setting, takes no more total time than simply dosing into the PF.

OBVIOUSLY, you will need to adjust your grinder to grind much more finely with this lower dose than the larger doses you may have been using. The "goal" is to get approximately the same time/volume relationships in your 14g extractions as you were getting from 20g or whatever you were using before. Obviously, there is nothing magical about 14, so you could try 12, or 15, just keep it on the low side.

So what is the result?

I don't think I'll ever go back to "overdosed" baskets again. The shots are more "balanced," more "nuanced," and HUGELY more consistent and repeatable. The shots consistently blond at about the same time, every time, assuming the grinder setting is right. I haven't had a single channeled shot since I changed to this technique, and I use a bottomless PF for my shots so it would be readily evident.

What are the conclusions I would like to draw from this?

A huge one is that a lot of the "mystique" of espresso making and how hard it is, is based upon the propensity of home users, especially those in N. America (where the popular online venues are located), to overdose their baskets. No wonder that Schomer was able to write an entire book about espresso making, that reduces every step to the very most "anal." No wonder that people think this whole home barista stuff is so damn hard! No wonder that the whole phenomena of "barista competitions" got started! We have been using espresso machines with too-large doses, which makes the whole process much harder and the results much less certain.

14g (or presumably 12g or 15g) shots are balanced and subtle and good, in a way that 18 or 20g basket shots are not. In order to make shots from overdosed baskets the barista has to jump through all sorts of hoops and used assaultive, in your face coffees and blends in order to "knock your socks off," which is what the goal has been for home users and for high end cafes.

I have no question that some blends and some coffees will not taste as "good" at 14g as they would at 20g, but then is this a reflection on the technique, or on the coffee or the blend? I think it is the latter.

Try this for yourself for a few days before you pass judgment on it. In order to do it right, you really need an accurate scale, one that can weigh down to half a gram or less. This sort of scale is readily available for around $30. I can't think of any repeatable way of doing this without such a scale, since home users are not going to adjust dosers since they grind per shot, and don't make enough shots in time to use the grinds when fresh. A photographic timer might work, but you'd still need a good scale to calibrate it.

I think you will find that your espressomaking will all of a sudden become much more predictable, repeatable, and it will appear as if your skill level has taken a big jump. In addition, I think your espressos will taste better.

I am finding that I can drink more espressos in a day, from the lower dose, without getting the sort of caffeine buzz I was getting before at the higher doses, which is an added benefit.

ken
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by HB on Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:45 am

Ken Fox wrote:OBVIOUSLY, you will need to adjust your grinder to grind much more finely with this lower dose than the larger doses you may have been using. The "goal" is to get approximately the same time/volume relationships in your 14g extractions as you were getting from 20g or whatever you were using before. Obviously, there is nothing magical about 14, so you could try 12, or 15, just keep it on the low side.

So what is the result?

I don't think I'll ever go back to "overdosed" baskets again. The shots are more "balanced," more "nuanced," and HUGELY more consistent and repeatable. The shots consistently blond at about the same time, every time, assuming the grinder setting is right. I haven't had a single channeled shot since I changed to this technique, and I use a bottomless PF for my shots so it would be readily evident.

What are the conclusions I would like to draw from this?

A huge one is that a lot of the "mystique" of espresso making and how hard it is, is based upon the propensity of home users, especially those in N. America (where the popular online venues are located), to overdose their baskets.

Ken, thanks for sharing your results. However, I'm not certain if you're advocating precisely measured doses or smaller doses, of which measured doses are a necessary evil because volume dosing it difficult below the rim.

When I'm in test mode, I remove the portafilter retainer clip and dose directly into the basket. I have several baskets and just drop them in a tub for cleanup later. The dosage I choose is based on the machine. For example, I found the Cimbali Junior wouldn't tolerate updosing and settled in around 15-16 grams. The Elektra A3 fell in this same range. The E61 based espresso machines with Faema-style baskets are typically in the 17-18 gram range, or about a nickel's worth of clearance. Generally speaking, I've found espresso machines that side channel with low clearance ("donut shots") improve with a finer grind and lower dose.

Yesterday at Counter Culture Coffee's Friday espresso lab was typical of my test routine. The goal was to compare the Kony and Super Jolly side by side, so I dialed in both grinders, measuring the dose on a 0.1 gram accuracy scale. Once I had pulled three or four consistent espressos on both grinders, I put the scale aside for the test, comfortable that my observations of the required dosage level using the scale were reproduced by volume dosing. Although the scale would assure a higher degree of dosage consistency, speed is critical when there's a crowd waiting for their sample.

(Unfortunately the results are not worth publishing. A local news reporter and photographer stopped by to interview the regulars at the Friday CCC espresso lab. Although it was fun time for all, the focus on delivering paired drinks was lost.)
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by chelya on Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:52 am

Ken, I was thinking about the same thing for some time. Your post was the tipping point. Which lower-volume baskets you would recommend to get to experiment?
I use "LM" ridgeless and they are pretty much impossible to dose less then 17g.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:58 am

chelya wrote:Ken, I was thinking about the same thing for some time. Your post was the tipping point. Which lower-volume baskets you would recommend to get to experiment?
I use "LM" ridgeless and they are pretty much impossible to dose less then 17g.


I think the baskets are irrelevant; I don't think you can buy double baskets that only hold 12 or 14g. In Italy, where this sort of dosing is normal, I believe they rely on adjusting the dosers in their grinders, but this will not work in anything other than a very high volume setting such as a busy cafe.

You will need some way of measuring the coffee independent of the basket size. A cheap 0.5 or 0.1g scale is the easiest and cheapest way of doing this that I can think of.

Just use your regular baskets; they should work just fine with a lower dose.

ken
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:59 am

HB wrote:Ken, thanks for sharing your results. However, I'm not certain if you're advocating precisely measured doses or smaller doses, of which measured doses are a necessary evil because volume dosing it difficult below the rim.


I am advocating precisely measured, smaller, doses. BOTH of these things.

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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by RegulatorJohnson on Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:09 am

seems to me that an over-dosed/under extracted shot, would have less caffeine, than a under-dosed/more well extracted shot. 2 ounces from 18g would have less caffeine than 2 ounces from 14g more is extracted from the smaller dose because it will be more thoroughly extracted.

the 18g has overall more caffeine in the basket pre-extraction but the 14g puts more in the cup post-extraction.

am i completely off base?

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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by chelya on Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:09 am

Ken Fox wrote:Just use your regular baskets; they should work just fine with a lower dose.

Thanks. I'll give your spoon distribution a try.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:59 pm

RegulatorJohnson wrote:seems to me that an over-dosed/under extracted shot, would have less caffeine, than a under-dosed/more well extracted shot. 2 ounces from 18g would have less caffeine than 2 ounces from 14g more is extracted from the smaller dose because it will be more thoroughly extracted.

the 18g has overall more caffeine in the basket pre-extraction but the 14g puts more in the cup post-extraction.

am i completely off base?

jon


I am telling you how the caffeine I am getting from these shots affects me.

For whatever reason, I believe that I am getting less caffeine from these shots than I was getting from my previous 18-20g shots.

ken
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by gscace on Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:51 pm

Ken Fox wrote:I think the baskets are irrelevant; I don't think you can buy double baskets that only hold 12 or 14g. In Italy, where this sort of dosing is normal, I believe they rely on adjusting the dosers in their grinders, but this will not work in anything other than a very high volume setting such as a busy cafe.

You will need some way of measuring the coffee independent of the basket size. A cheap 0.5 or 0.1g scale is the easiest and cheapest way of doing this that I can think of.

Just use your regular baskets; they should work just fine with a lower dose.

ken


Actually, Rancilio's double basket doses 14 gm just fine.

I agree that the business of overdosing shouldn't be slavishly adhered to, but I also think it could be appropriate at times. A couple of months ago, Peter Lynagh from Terroir Coffee visited me and he was dosing 14 gm of the Brazil Daterra that he brought. It was extremely tasty at this dose level, and opened my eyes to see that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Now, when I'm trying coffees, I experiment with different baskets and volumes, but rarely updosing. I think that the geometry of the basket, aspect ratio of the cake, dose volume and headspace above the cake do have an influence on taste. It's certainly worth experimenting with.

WRT to dosing less than the actual volume of the basket - Use a radiused tool to strike off the excess coffee. It leaves a very consistent volume of coffee in the basket and forms the top surface into a uniform, spherical shape. Works great! Some of the Aussie pros have had tools made. I don't get too tricky. I use a curved plastic picnic knife for a first crack at underdosing a basket.

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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by another_jim on Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:41 pm

The habit of updosing in the US was based initially based on the requirement of making large milk drinks. When the better Seattle cafes started emphasizing straight shots from the late 90s on, the first generation of blends they used was based on this dosing practice. In a cafe, if 90 percent of the drinks being served are milk, then the blend needs to be tuned for that. Even if one has a second, straight shot blend, using a different dose for it would be a PITA.

Obviously, the time has come to reconsider this. There's no doubt that lighter roasted, more acidic coffees are better enjoyed at lower doses. Some machines develop severe taste problems if the puck hits the shower screen, which means the dose has to be well below the level of whatever basket one is using, and finger strike dosing won't work. Finally, some grinders seem to perform better at lower doses.

However, I'm not quite with Ken on this if I understand him correctly. I don't think substituting one rigid routine that's considered better for one that is considered worse is the way to go. I would prefer to get to the point where I'm comfortable with multiple baskets, multiple doses, and tasting the results. That way I can use whatever works best for whatever coffee happens to be up. This does have disadvantages, a rigid routine is going to produce more consistent shots than one with a lot of options and variations. It comes down to how much variation you want in your everyday coffees. If you are using the same coffee for long stretches, a rigid routine is going to work better; if you change blends a lot; you're better off being able to change baskets and doses as well.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:26 pm

another_jim wrote:The habit of updosing in the US was based initially based on the requirement of making large milk drinks. When the better Seattle cafes started emphasizing straight shots from the late 90s on, the first generation of blends they used was based on this dosing practice. In a cafe, if 90 percent of the drinks being served are milk, then the blend needs to be tuned for that. Even if one has a second, straight shot blend, using a different dose for it would be a PITA.

Obviously, the time has come to reconsider this. There's no doubt that lighter roasted, more acidic coffees are better enjoyed at lower doses. Some machines develop severe taste problems if the puck hits the shower screen, which means the dose has to be well below the level of whatever basket one is using, and finger strike dosing won't work. Finally, some grinders seem to perform better at lower doses.

However, I'm not quite with Ken on this if I understand him correctly. I don't think substituting one rigid routine that's considered better for one that is considered worse is the way to go. I would prefer to get to the point where I'm comfortable with multiple baskets, multiple doses, and tasting the results. That way I can use whatever works best for whatever coffee happens to be up. This does have disadvantages, a rigid routine is going to produce more consistent shots than one with a lot of options and variations. It comes down to how much variation you want in your everyday coffees. If you are using the same coffee for long stretches, a rigid routine is going to work better; if you change blends a lot; you're better off being able to change baskets and doses as well.


I don't think there is anything "magical" about 14g, but at this point I think I'm prepared to say I prefer 14g to 20g. At the same time, I'm pretty sure even at this juncture that I'm not going to be constantly changing doses each time I roast or buy a new coffee; that truly fulfills the requirements for being a PITA.

So I'm not saying, choose 14g and do it exactly as I am proposing, and that is the be all and end all. What I am saying is that reducing the dosage significantly below the 20 or 18g we have been using is a very good idea, probably for all coffees. I am also saying that in the absence of baskets that will hold a lower dose and no more, dosed to the top which I think is the only really consistent way of eyeballing, that something else needs to be done to be consistent. I think a ramekin and a scale is one such approach, and I've found that surprisingly, at least for me, it doesn't seem to take much more time and is a helluva lot more consistent than what I've done before.

But to each his own on this, both as regards the amount of futzing around people want to do with the doses of each coffee, and the way that they get those doses in the basket consistently.

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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by RapidCoffee on Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:38 pm

We don't hear much from Chris Tacy these days (a real pity), but he might disagree. From his blog:

As a generic starting point I tend to go with the following parameters:
- LM ridged double basket,
- 200F brew temp,
- 9BAR brew pressure,
- 18 gram dose,
- 2oz extraction in 27 seconds.
...
At this point, I move on to establishing a dose starting point. To do this I look at the bean composition and the "signature taste" of the roaster and the coffee. If the coffee has a lot of naturals or pulped naturals I will adjust the dose down from the baseline. If the coffee is mostly high-grown arabica I'll increase the dose. So, for example, with the Terroir Daterra Reserve I'd go with a 17.5 gram dose. But with the Stumptown Hairbender I'd go with a 19 gram dose. The "signature taste" is a harder one and requires some knowledge of the roaster. Is the person roasting this coffee a fan of low acidity espresso? Are they a "chocolate bomb" aficionado? If you know what they like out of their espresso you can do minor adjustments to your dose. So, for example, based on this I would actually drop the Terroir Daterra down to a 17 gram dose but would up the Stumptown Hairbender to a 20 gram dose.


And from an old H-B thread:

malachi wrote:Personally, I've only found one coffee ever that (IMHO) tasted best with a 14 gram dose (in a LM basket). Just my taste perhaps.


Then there's the famous comparison of espresso machines by Alan Frew, in which he concluded that basket size was the most significant factor:

Now for the important bit; how were the espressos? Well, "out of the box" there was considerable variation between the espresso from a Silvia and the espressos from the Isomac and the Expobar. The HX espressos were richer and fuller flavoured, which turned out to be not that much of a surprise after I'd inspected the filter baskets that came with the machines. The Isomac and Expobar single filters hold about 11 grams, or a third more than a standard Rancilio single. The double filters hold over 18 grams, about 20% more than standard.


I generally drink cappuccinos, typically dose around 18g in my "LM" ridgeless double baskets, and enjoy the results. Correct dosing is absolutely critical to fine espresso, and overdosing can certainly ruin your pours. I've never found significant downdosing to be all that compelling, but de gustibus non est disputandum... :wink:
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by another_jim on Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:05 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:I generally drink cappuccinos, typically dose around 18g in my "LM" ridgeless double baskets, and enjoy the results. Correct dosing is absolutely critical to fine espresso, and overdosing can certainly ruin your pours. I've never found significant downdosing to be all that compelling, but de gustibus non est disputandum... :wink:


Try a straight wet processed Yrg. You may find that at 18 grams it's undrinkable, and at 14, it blows away everything you thought was great espresso.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:04 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:
I generally drink cappuccinos, typically dose around 18g in my "LM" ridgeless double baskets, and enjoy the results. Correct dosing is absolutely critical to fine espresso, and overdosing can certainly ruin your pours. I've never found significant downdosing to be all that compelling, but de gustibus non est disputandum... :wink:


I could (and may have) posted more or less the same thing up until a week ago. I'd like to think that there is something in common between a taste in espresso, and a taste in fine food and wine. In retrospect, an 18 or 20g dose is akin to a piece of foie gras sauteed in butter, or one of those California wines that has spent simply too much time in oak; e.g., too much, or "trop," as the French would say.

I was one of the most resistant, and one of the last, to consider this "lower dosing" phenomenon; I put "lower dosing" in quotes because it is not really "lower" in dose, just lower in dose to what we N. Americans have become accustomed. I doubt that they do it this way very much outside of N. America, and I know that they do not do this in Italy, for example.

The fact that some blends originating in N. America seem designed to be used at high basket doses, does not disprove what I am writing. If you are used to having a huge slice of cheesecake for dessert, and someone then serves you a small and appropriately sized portion of a delicate French dessert, you are entitled to say you miss the cheesecake but hopefully on further reflection you might want to give the tarte aux pommes another try.

In my view, shots made from 18g or 20g of coffee are simply "trop." They lack balance. They are in your face. If you enjoy having your taste buds assaulted, then I'd say continue. If you are open to the idea that there might be something missing, e.g. a little "balance," then I invite you to try dosing lower for a few days, enough to become used to the technique, and then to reevaluate for yourself. This is something you should evaluate for yourself, with your own palette, rather than seeking "received wisdom" from anyone else.

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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Jasonian on Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:14 pm

Ken Fox wrote:I have no question that some blends and some coffees will not taste as "good" at 14g as they would at 20g, but then is this a reflection on the technique, or on the coffee or the blend? I think it is the latter.



ken

...and another one joins the club. Welcome aboard! It's a bumpy ride.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by RapidCoffee on Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:16 am

another_jim wrote:Try a straight wet processed Yrg. You may find that at 18 grams it's undrinkable, and at 14, it blows away everything you thought was great espresso.

Touche. Love Yirgs for drip coffee, but not espresso. Maybe downdosing will change that.

Ken Fox wrote:If you are open to the idea that there might be something missing, e.g. a little "balance," then I invite you to try dosing lower for a few days, enough to become used to the technique, and then to reevaluate for yourself. This is something you should evaluate for yourself, with your own palette, rather than seeking "received wisdom" from anyone else.

Been there, done that, most recently during the Titan grinder project stint. But I'm certainly open to giving it another shot.

In all fairness, I primarily make milk-based drinks and pull blends rather than SO shots. So I'm a prime candidate for updosing. :)

Ken Fox wrote:So, I went to plan "b" which was to use my gram scale accurate to 1/10g, by dosing into a ceramic ramekin which I'd preweighed and then "tare-ed" the scale to rezero it. Once 14g or thereabouts was in the ramekin, I transferred the coffee with a Teaspoon into the PF basket, which turns out to be much easier than it sounds, with the last bit out of the ramekin being literally poured directly into the PF. Then, I take the spoon and quickly distribute it in the basket, then quickly tamp, then pull the shot. The whole process takes very little more time than dosing directly into the PF.

Somewhat OT, but ridgeless baskets make this even easier:

Image
this was a 17g dose (sometimes I even remember to tare the basket :oops:)

You can dose right into the basket, then slip it gently into the portafilter just prior to pulling the shot. I've never understood the appeal of ridged baskets...
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:20 am

RapidCoffee wrote:Somewhat OT, but ridgeless baskets make this even easier:

<image>
this was a 17g dose (sometimes I even remember to tare the basket :oops:)

You can dose right into the basket, then slip it gently into the portafilter just prior to pulling the shot. I've never understood the appeal of ridged baskets...


The "problem" with tare-ing the basket is that to do so you have to remove the PF clip, or at least you have to do that on all the PFs that I own. This means that using a knockbox is a PITA, as the basket will fly out unless you consciously hold it at that point. It can fall off at other inopportune times as well, as I observed when I tried that approach a while ago.

My bias against weighing coffee was very strong, in fact I have called it "anal" in earlier posts, but now that I am doing it I'm finding that my overall routine takes very little if any additional time, and it is rewarded by a level of shot consistency I have never seen before.

ken
p.s. I do have a several scales that I could use to tare the PF itself, and one of them, a 0.5g scale, is probably accurate enough to work about as well as what I'm doing with the ramekin. But I'm really not missing the coffee mess on my counter after shot making sessions so on balance I think the ramekin may be here to stay. The ramekins are large enough that there is no side spray of coffee to deal with, and I like that.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by jesawdy on Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:01 am

Ken Fox wrote:The "problem" with tare-ing the basket is that to do so you have to remove the PF clip, or at least you have to do that on all the PFs that I own. This means that using a knockbox is a PITA, as the basket will fly out unless you consciously hold it at that point. It can fall off at other inopportune times as well, as I observed when I tried that approach a while ago.


Ken, the ridgeless baskets slide in just fine with the PF spring in place. I use these all the time for this reason. The spring still retains the PF for knocking out. Now that you've joined that "anal" camp that at least occasionally weighs the coffee, perhaps you might jump on the ridgeless bandwagon as well? :P

EDIT - Your buddies at Espresso Resource have them as well. They even have a 12 gram version. I have two of the 14g and 18g versions.
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by Ken Fox on Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:31 am

jesawdy wrote:Ken, the ridgeless baskets slide in just fine with the PF spring in place. I use these all the time for this reason. The spring still retains the PF for knocking out. Now that you've joined that "anal" camp that at least occasionally weighs the coffee, perhaps you might jump on the ridgeless bandwagon as well? :P

EDIT - Your buddies at Espresso Resource have them as well. They even have a 12 gram version. I have two of the 14g and 18g versions.


I bought 12g baskets from them, which Angelo told me would accommodate more than that, but that are industry standard 12g baskets. At least with my grinders, they hold 17g.

I underestimated how much coffee I was putting in my baskets when I simply used a scale with an accuracy level of 1.0g. If you don't have one, a 0.1g scale may be an interesting purchase. It will probably show most people that they "overdose" by a wider margin than they thought previously.

What exactly is the benefit of removing baskets from PFs instead of weighing into another vessel such as a ramekin? This completely escapes me, it makes no sense whatsoever. Once you are to the point where you are weighing ground coffee, whether you weigh into a ramekin and then quickly transfer, or weigh into a basket which you had to remove from the PF and then will reinsert, where exactly does the time saving come from? Not removing the PF basket and not reinserting it afterwards, is without doubt saving me as much time as weighing into a ramekin "costs" me. In addition, using the ramekin as the receptacle means that there is no coffee side splatter from the grinder because of the ramekin's wider diameter than the PF, and hence no cleanup is needed around the grinders, zip, zero, nada.

I have also found, the last day, that I don't even have to bother distributing the coffee in the PF. I can simply put a couple of teaspoonfuls into the PF from the ramekin, then dump the rest in, and then tamp with maybe 5-10 pounds pressure. Using these sorts of low doses appears to basically prevent channeling with the degree of distribution one gets from spooning in and lightly tamping, period. At least in my experience, it does.

This gets to a point I tried to make in my original post; a lot of the obsessive behavior and difficulty we home baristas have experienced in shotmaking is directly due to using "too much" coffee in the PF baskets. There is a much lower probability of channeling with lower doses than with the high ones we are used to using. I did not make this observation first, it is something that Jim Schulman told me in an email a few months ago when he was doing his original studies on solubles extraction and dosing.

Our peculiar N. American practices have led directly to the impression that making espresso at home is hard to do, and it is probably "our fault." I think that if people took a step back and looked at how they do it in Italy (with smaller doses) they might realize that the Italians actually have had a lot of experience with this skill, espressomaking, and they arrived at the smaller doses perhaps after a lot of trial and error, which showed that they got more reproducible and better "balanced" shots at 12-14 or maybe 15g doses, than they did with 18 or 21g.

ken

EDIT

I want to expand a little on what I'm saying about N. American "technique." We "owe" a lot of this approach, e.g. "updosing" and 30lb or "handstand" tamps, to David Schomer, whose book on the techniques of the barista has for many become like a religious tract. He and people following after him have had tremendous impact on what is considered to be high end espresso and "third wave" practices. But what if in fact all of this is a spectacular wrong turn?

If it is, and that is my thinking at this moment, then we have developed a set of practices with espresso blends to match, which produce the espresso equivalent of the now-detested overoaked California Chardonay that used to be all the rage but on further reflection was found to be basically unusable as an accompaniment to a meal.

And why is this all getting re-evaluated at this point? I think it is very much related to the newfound interest in single origin espresso, which we were all taught was a bad idea, because it produced "unbalanced" shots. But maybe it produced unbalanced shots because we were trying to use SOs with the same technique that we had used blends, which themselves had been heavily influenced by N. American "basket overdosing" technique.

We all owe Jim Schulman a huge measure of thanks because he is basically the pioneer with this stuff, and his motivation in working on it was directly related to his enjoyment of Single Origin espresso and related attempts to expand the number of such SOs that would be usable for espresso.
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
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Link to "Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!"by jesawdy on Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:16 pm

Ken Fox wrote:What exactly is the benefit of removing baskets from PFs instead of weighing into another vessel such as a ramekin? This completely escapes me, it makes no sense whatsoever. Once you are to the point where you are weighing ground coffee, whether you weigh into a ramekin and then quickly transfer, or weigh into a basket which you had to remove from the PF and then will reinsert, where exactly does the time saving come from? Not removing the PF basket and not reinserting it afterwards, is without doubt saving me as much time as weighing into a ramekin "costs" me. In addition, using the ramekin as the receptacle means that there is no coffee side splatter from the grinder because of the ramekin's wider diameter than the PF, and hence no cleanup is needed around the grinders, zip, zero, nada.


At the risk of veering slightly off topic.... it's a po-TAY-toes, po-TAH-toes thing. With a doserless grinder, it is very easy to dose by eye a given volume/weight directly into the basket. With a dosered grinder, almost the same. Add a cup like John does in the WDT, and the mess is also averted. If I "underdose", the mess is almost avoided sans cup. I gave your ramekin method a run the last 24 hours/12+ shots.... I didn't much care for the business of transferring the grounds. My personal preference is to dose directly into the basket with it in the portafilter handle, pop it out to verify my weight is on the money (this is super simple in a bottomless as you you just push it out from underneath), return to the portafilter handle, distribute (WDT or otherwise), and tamp.

To be clear, I'm not belittling your method... it's just isn't my thing. I also don't like to dose a basket/tamp sans portafilter handle, but will do so for rapid succession shots or when doing side-by-side comparisons (as I am attempting to do right now, Silvia/Alexia).

I have also found, the last day, that I don't even have to bother distributing the coffee in the PF. I can simply put a couple of teaspoonfuls into the PF from the ramekin, then dump the rest in, and then tamp with maybe 5-10 pounds pressure. Using these sorts of low doses appears to basically prevent channeling with the degree of distribution one gets from spooning in and lightly tamping, period. At least in my experience, it does.

This gets to a point I tried to make in my original post; a lot of the obsessive behavior and difficulty we home baristas have experienced in shotmaking is directly due to using "too much" coffee in the PF baskets. There is a much lower probability of channeling with lower doses than with the high ones we are used to using. I did not make this observation first, it is something that Jim Schulman told me in an email a few months ago when he was doing his original studies on solubles extraction and dosing.


Back on topic. I agree this may be the case. In playing with "underdosing" awhile back, it seemed to produce a "suspension" of sorts that did not appear to channel, as Jim alluded to. In using the Alexia, I've settled in at 16g for a typical normale, as it seems to work quite well. That said, for many coffees that I've had recently, an 18g and even 20g ristretto was quite tasty.
Jeff Sawdy
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