Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 4

[Grant]

My results with down dosing and lighter tamping have resulted in lots of spritzers, and led me to wonder if you're using a nekkid PF handle with these experiments, and your thoughts on the needle-holes 'decorating' my floors, counters, and clothes at the moment.

I'm gonna try going back to the 14 g baskets, and grind really find to a five pound tamp and see what happens....

Oh, and someone still need a photo timer? ; >
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I'm using a "nekkid" PF handle unless I pour two singles....other than the odd pin-hole channel, getting almost NO spritzing or spraying any more. My biggest problem previously was donut extractions, and they seem to be almost eliminated now.

One thing I never did previously was weigh my shots, so for the next bunch of shots, I am going to start weighing each one until I can confidently "eyeball" it. One thing I HATE to do is have to weigh/measure/fuss/fidget/mess around.

I'll take a couple photo's, and see if the still camera video mode is up to recording a shot.

[Ken Fox]

I'm using a "nekkid" PF handle unless I pour two singles....other than the odd pin-hole channel, getting almost NO spritzing or spraying any more. My biggest problem previously was donut extractions, and they seem to be almost eliminated now.

One thing I never did previously was weigh my shots, so for the next bunch of shots, I am going to start weighing each one until I can confidently "eyeball" it. One thing I HATE to do is have to weigh/measure/fuss/fidget/mess around.

I'll take a couple photo's, and see if the still camera video mode is up to recording a shot.

I haven't used anything but bottomless PFs in a very long time. I'm simply weighing the receiving vessel (a ceramic ramekin in my case), using the TARE function on my 0.1g scale to zero it, then putting 14 or 15g into the ramekin. To the extent that I grind too much into the ramekin, I remove it with a teaspoon while the ramekin is on the scale, until I approach the desired dose (I'll let it be 0.2 or perhaps 0.3g too much, not more). I then spoon the contents into the bottomless PF in 2 or 3 or perhaps 4 spoonfuls, tap the ramekin on one edge to dislodge any remaining granules and shake those into the PF.

I make no further efforts at distribution, just put the tamper in the basket, twirl it around and tamp a few pounds for a few seconds, then lock the PF in the machine and make the shot (doing a temperature equalizing flush at some point beforehand).

That's it.

Sometimes the pucks end up being wetter than I would like, but this does not seem to effect the shots in anyway.

ken
p.s. I have yet to try this on my older vibe machine, which hasn't been fired up in the last few weeks. The rotary machine has been modified with pre-infusion, so the puck is hit with ~3.5bar initially for 6-7 seconds, then with the full 9 bar. This approximates the slow ramp up in pressure I have observed on the PF manometer put into my vibe machine, but would not be the same as another rotary machine that lacks a smooth pressure ramp up or some sort of preinfusion. I could see how that works on my machine as I can turn the "preinfusion" delay timer off by flipping a switch.

[Psyd]

other than the odd pin-hole channel, getting almost NO spritzing or spraying any more. My biggest problem previously was donut extractions, and they seem to be almost elminated now.

One thing I never did previously was weigh my shots, so for the next bunch of shots, I am going to start weighing each one until I can confidently "eyeball" it. One thing I HATE to do is have to weigh/measure/fuss/fidget/mess around.

Thanks. Yeah, the donuts are disappearing with my down dosing, too, but the pinholes aren't getting any better, and it is a bit of a mess. I'm much more comfortable weighing and measuring than I am cleaning floors and such after spraying good espresso all over 'em! I've gotten to the point where I can get a nineteen, eighteen, sixteen, fifteen or fourteen gram dose just by using the spoon that came with my Silvia (or was it the Krups?). I used to spoon 'em onto a scale, and now I can just spoon 'em into the hopper. It becomes a sight thing fairly soon, but you have to re-visit every six months or so to stay accurate.

[Jasonian]

Thanks. Yeah, the donuts are disappearing with my down dosing, too, but the pinholes aren't getting any better, and it is a bit of a mess. I'm much more comfortable weighing and measuring than I am cleaning floors and such after spraying good espresso all over 'em! I've gotten to the point where I can get a nineteen, eighteen, sixteen, fifteen or fourteen gram dose just by using the spoon that came with my Silvia (or was it the Krups?). I used to spoon 'em onto a scale, and now I can just spoon 'em into the hopper. It becomes a sight thing fairly soon, but you have to re-visit every six months or so to stay accurate.

What kind of pressure is your OPV set to?

[Grant]

Sometimes the pucks end up being wetter than I would like, but this does not seem to effect the shots in anyway.

ken
p.s. I have yet to try this on my older vibe machine, which hasn't been fired up in the last few weeks. The rotary machine has been modified with pre-infusion, so the puck is hit with ~3.5bar initially for 6-7 seconds, then with the full 9 bar. This approximates the slow ramp up in pressure I have observed on the PF manometer put into my vibe machine, but would not be the same as another rotary machine that lacks a smooth pressure ramp up or some sort of preinfusion. I could see how that works on my machine as I can turn the "preinfusion" delay timer off by flipping a switch.

I *still* have wet pucks as well, but that ALWAYS been a problem/feature on my Bricoletta....without letting the puck sit for a minute before pulling the handle, it has always been this way. Downdosing has not changed much in this area.

My Bricoletta is an automatic with rotary pump as well, so I get no pre-infusion either. I have "slowed" the pressure ramp though by installing a .5mm gicleur, which has really helped tame the machine. I think the lack of pre-infusion and the previously very fast ramp up has always made the machine critical of a poorly prepared basket.

Edit....sorry for the poor photo lighting....not a great photographer. Can't seem to get a decent shot.

Here is what approx 14g looks like to me.....(basket weighs 26g according to the scale, but I can't do 10ths)



....and a resulting shot. If you look at the metal, it appears something squirted out at some point, as the machine was clean before pulling the shot.

[LeoZ]

I gave Jim credit for the idea in my first post on this thread and in subsequent ones.

The difference is that Jim approached this as a lab type experiment, weighing pucks and measuring how much was extracted with different puck weights. His theory explaining it held up for a while but has fallen down with use of additional grinders. I don't know where his explanation lies at the moment.

My post was approaching this as a practical technique issue, e.g. it is an easier and more consistent technique than what I and many others here have used. In addition, I felt and continue to feel that the shots taste better and are better balanced. Finally, I found a way of actually executing low basket dosing (weighing a separate recepticle with a very accurate, sub-gram scale) that was easy, fast, and repeatable. It has been used before, but I believe mostly with portafilter baskets and with larger doses.

ken

its always cool to see theory work in real world practice for yourself.

ive tried to abandon analyzing things too much. its like cooking, once you learn to appreciate the subject (coffee, food, etc), things will fall into place for you naturally..

-leo (i underdose, grind as fine as i can after i wet my finger and hold it in the air, tamp medium-light, and let things go! ok i do cheat with erics adaptor when i use the hx..)

[Psyd]

What kind of pressure is your OPV set to?

I'm guessing that you're referring to the Silvia? It's set at stock. The machine that I'm having issues with is the Astoria, though. Miss Silvia is pulling shots like a trooper! Every shot out of her seems to be syrupy smooth, beginning to blonde at 27 seconds, and pushing just under two ounces. And, they're tasty! The Astoria was pushing 9 bar when I got her, and I had to drop her down a stop when the local water pressure went up (?!?) and then when it went back down, she ended up at 8.5. the espresso was a lot nicer after that, so I never did tweak her back up to nine. But it's a rotary pump adjustment, not an OPV.

[cannonfodder]

I *still* have wet pucks as well, but that ALWAYS been a problem/feature on my Bricoletta....without letting the puck sit for a minute before pulling the handle, it has always been this way. Downdosing has not changed much in this area.

I would not worry about the wet puck. It makes sense it would be wet because of the increased headspace. There is more water on top so some may be left after the 3-way opens. Don't worry too much about how the puck looks, as long as the espresso tastes good.

[EspressoObsessed]

I've been trying this on my Silvia. I can get a good taste, but there seems to be less crema which dissipates more rapidly. Any thoughts? My beans are fresh, purchased weekly from Intelly.

[Ken Fox]

I've been trying this on my Silvia. I can get a good taste, but there seems to be less crema which dissipates more rapidly. Any thoughts? My beans are fresh, purchased weekly from Intelly.

I don't have a Silvia and have never used one. I also have no recent home experience with any Intelligentsia coffees, although eons ago I did use some Black Cat. The current iteration of BC is not to my liking, which probably reflects a combination of my own particular taste and the vagaries of annual coffee crops more than anything else.

So, I can't comment on your experience with the coffee you are using.

What I can say, and this has no particular reference to Intelligentsia or any other particular N. American roaster, is that some of the blends out there appear clearly to have been designed for larger basket doses than what I have suggested in this thread. The Italians are accused, and rightly so, of using fairly nondescript and uninteresting (but "correct") coffees to make up their blends. This is one place where better N. American roasters are beating the pants off the Italians, by fostering the development and improvement of such great coffees as the Ethiopian Biloya Select, and many others.

My impression is that some of the typical N. American blends that get a lot of exposure here are not going to work too well at lower basket doses, because they were not really designed for that. In contrast, however, a lot more single origins than will show well at 20g, will work at 12 or 14 or 15g. If lower basket dosing really catches on, in part due to threads such as this one, watch for some of the better roasters to start developing some blends that are more specifically targeted at this sort of use.

ken

[Jasonian]

I'm guessing that you're referring to the Silvia? It's set at stock. The machine that I'm having issues with is the Astoria, though. Miss Silvia is pulling shots like a trooper! Every shot out of her seems to be syrupy smooth, beginning to blonde at 27 seconds, and pushing just under two ounces. And, they're tasty! The Astoria was pushing 9 bar when I got her, and I had to drop her down a stop when the local water pressure went up (?!?) and then when it went back down, she ended up at 8.5. the espresso was a lot nicer after that, so I never did tweak her back up to nine. But it's a rotary pump adjustment, not an OPV.

Right, sorry.

Have you tried using your Silvia's filterbasket in the Astoria?

[Jasonian]

I've been trying this on my Silvia. I can get a good taste, but there seems to be less crema which dissipates more rapidly. Any thoughts? My beans are fresh, purchased weekly from Intelly.

I've had this happen as well, but it doesn't happen with every coffee.

I wouldn't worry about the crema so much unless it's affecting the flavor.

I've had some coffees not even a day off the roast that gave almost no crema, but tasted absolutely divine.

Then again, I've seen some old crop coffees yield less crema than normal as well.

There's no set formula for the formation of crema in the cup, I've found.

[Psyd]

Right, sorry.

Have you tried using your Silvia's filterbasket in the Astoria?

I'm using the LM ridged 14g in the Silvia right now, and the 18g ridgeless in the Astoria. I have tried the 14g stock Astoria a few times (so I'd have a 'standard' baseline to compare to) but I'm having some luck lately. I'm all over the place at the moment, posting wise, as three of these threads seem to be one giant thread of my experiences. Almost like there is a Jim, a Spock, and McCoy thread...

[Ozark_61]

Just catching up on this intriguing thread. I will look forward to trying it out once I borrow a pressure gauge to turn down my OPV. One thought - is all this 'spring / no spring', 'French / Chinese' ramekin make any difference? I just tare my basket in the PF and then dose if I want to check weight. As long as your scale weight limit is at least a pound or two, I don't see where taking the baskets out would help. I do understand that teaspooning your dose into the basket probably helps your distribution, but to simplify matters, I might try just dosing into the basket directly in the pf.

I wonder what the % of dissolved solids from all grounds in the basket look like for a double from a 18gm basket vs. a 14gm basket. I would think that you are extracting a higher % of available solids and at a more even distribution from all available grounds vs. a 18gm basket where certain portions of the basket are going to be over / under extracted based on available solids.

Geoff

I haven't used anything but bottomless PFs in a very long time. I'm simply weighing the receiving vessel (a ceramic ramekin in my case), using the TARE function on my 0.1g scale to zero it, then putting 14 or 15g into the ramekin.

[cannonfodder]

The percentage of TDS would vary by the grinder used. Jim has documented that in the Clash of the Titan Grinders. I have to admit, I actually purchased a TDS meter just yesterday. Got a nice one off eBay with the appropriate metering resolution. I see some TDS measurements coming to my reviews in the near future.

Geoff, I wont forget to get that PF in the mail tomorrow, sorry about that.

[k7qz]

I would not worry about the wet puck. It makes sense it would be wet because of the increased headspace. There is more water on top so some may be left after the 3-way opens. Don't worry too much about how the puck looks, as long as the espresso tastes good.

Agreed. A 14 gram dose yields a wet puck for me here as well. The shot tastes great however and the only downside I've noticed is that the puck doesn't pop out of my PF cleanly as one neat unit but makes for more slop in my knockbox.

My new hundreth gram digital scale (I know, overkill- but I couldn't resist. Besides I can always use it for reloading or so I told my wife...) should be sitting on my doorstep tomorrow. Looking forward to playing with this a bit more!

[Ken Fox]

As long as your scale weight limit is at least a pound or two, I don't see where taking the baskets out would help. I do understand that teaspooning your dose into the basket probably helps your distribution, but to simplify matters, I might try just dosing into the basket directly in the pf.


Geoff

the issue is strictly one of cost; you can buy a scale that will give a 1/10g resolution for about $30, but it will only hold a maximum weight of about 300g which is considerably less than your typical PF, bottomless or otherwise. If you put more than 300g on such a scale, you will not get any reading and you risk damaging it. You can get scales in 1/10g resolution that will accomodate more than 300g, but they cost a lot more. Alternatively, you could go with a scale with a 0.5g resolution which is probably sufficiently accurate to use for these purposes. I do NOT believe that a scale with a 1.0g resolution is accurate enough, as such a scale will have an error margin of 1g or more in each direction, way too much to produce the shot repeatability that I have referenced.

I personally think that teaspooning the dose into the PF accomplishes next to nothing, as very little basket prep is needed when you use low doses like this.

ken

[RapidCoffee]

the issue is strictly one of cost; you can buy a scale that will give a 1/10g resolution for about $30, but it will only hold a maximum weight of about 300g ... I do NOT believe that a scale with a 1.0g resolution is accurate enough, as such a scale will have an error margin of 1g or more in each direction, way too much to produce the shot repeatability that I have referenced.

As Goldilocks might say: 1g accuracy is too low, 0.01g is overkill, and 0.1g (roughly the weight of one bean) is just right. 0.1g precision digital scales are now priced so reasonably that every home barista can afford one. For example, the Triton T-2 scale (pictured on page 1 of this thread) has a capacity of 550gx0.1g, and is available on eBay for $20 shipped. If you prefer to tare the portafilter, you can find a 2kgx0.1g scale for as little as $40.

[DavidMLewis]

seems to me that an over-dosed/under extracted shot, would have less caffeine, than a under-dosed/more well extracted shot. 2 ounces from 18g would have less caffeine than 2 ounces from 14g more is extracted from the smaller dose because it will be more thoroughly extracted.

The ranges measured by Jim Schulman ran from about 17% to about 22%, more or less, with different grinders varying in how much the extraction changed with dose. The conicals seemed to change less than the planars. Even at something close to the extremes, 17% of 18 g = 3.1 g extracted solids, and 22% * 14 g = 3.1 g extracted solids. So even if you don't take into account the flatter extraction slope of the grinders Ken has been using, it's unlikely that the amount of caffeine in the lower-dose shot has gone up, and if you do it's quite likely that it's gone down.

Best,
David

[Ozark_61]

The ranges measured by Jim Schulman ran from about 17% to about 22%, more or less, with different grinders varying in how much the extraction changed with dose. The conicals seemed to change less than the planars. Even at something close to the extremes, 17% of 18 g = 3.1 g extracted solids, and 22% * 14 g = 3.1 g extracted solids.

Perfect, that's what I was wondering. Now you have to wonder if you can increase that 22% to ? Oh.. yet another test - taste 22% vs. 60% etc! Zen espresso... how little grounds could one use to extract a double, young grasshopper?




Also - my single baskets hold 14-15gms - should I expect similar results as with 14gm in a 18gm double basket?


Dave - no problem, thanks!