Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 2

[AndyS]

Our peculiar N. American practices have led directly to the impression that making espresso at home is hard to do, and it is probably "our fault." I think that if people took a step back and looked at how they do it in Italy (with smaller doses) they might realize that the Italians actually have had a lot of experience with this skill, espressomaking, and they arrived at the smaller doses perhaps after a lot of trial and error

Certainly, Ken, you've been to the coffee shows where authentic Italian exhibitors (see picture) pull decent shots without the extensive "grooming" and tamping rituals that many American baristas find essential. I used to find the simplicity of the Italian technique perplexing, but apparently, they're just dosing a lot lower.




THE FAMOUS ANGELO MINICOZZI, "AUTHENTIC ITALIAN EXHIBITOR"

[another_jim]

I used to find the simplicity of the Italian technique perplexing, but apparently, they're just dosing a lot lower.

I'm still trying to reproduce that pancake flip like motion the NS guy used instead of distributing and tamping.

[another_jim]

We all owe Jim Schulman a huge measure of thanks because he is basically the pioneer with this stuff, and his motivation in working on it was directly related to his enjoyment of Single Origin espresso and related attempts to expand the number of such SOs that would be usable for espresso.

I was just the megaphone on this. I think the first person to post on low doses was Peter Lynagh of Terroir, a year before I started doing it. He was scratching his head why people found the Terroir Daterra too bright, and it came out that the roast was designed for 14 grams doses, while everyone was doing it at 18. I've dropped my roast finishing temperatures for espresso from a steady 2nd crack 440F to 445F down to a no hint of the second crack 430F to 435F since I started down dosing.

Basically, the latest generation of top roasters, like Terroir, Paradise and Rocket, come from non-Seattle, non-espresso-centric backgrounds, and their espresso roasts tend to be designed for Italian and Latin technique. Their success has made people more receptive to lower doses.

The irony of my role in this is that my solids extraction theory on why lower doses are more palatable is not holding up. Down dosing does work with all the TGP grinders for making lighter, acidic roasts palatable, but the solids extraction is not rising much, or at all.

[Ken Fox]

I'm still trying to reproduce that pancake flip like motion the NS guy used instead of distributing and tamping.

I continue to be amazed by the pours I'm getting, with lower bean dosage and no hoohah whatsoever. I'm just spooning the ground coffee in 2 or 3 spoonfuls from the ramekin into the PF, then doing a fast half-assed tamp, then voila! Perfect and repeatable pours that start to show through the bottomless PF in 6 or 7 seconds, and that start blonding like clockwork after 1.25oz at around 27-30 seconds.

The other thing that is most amazing is that I've not been adjusting my grinders; granted, they are either hybrid conical/planar (Maxs) or straight conical (Compak) but there is something about the dosing that is playing a role as well. The grind setting appears to be much less critical and require hardly any fiddling. I have not touched the grind on the Compak even though I set it up for Brazil Yellow Bourbon and now have Biloya in it, both of which have been great at 14g doses; this is over SIX DAYS.

I had to adjust one Max a little when I went from 14g Biloya Single Origin to some previously frozen Rocket Roaster Classic 4 days later, that I think maybe needs 15g doses rather than 14g. The other Max had Klatch Barista Champion blend in it, which was ok at 14g but seemed better at 15g so I adjusted that. But I have yet to adjust any of these grinders on a day to day basis to account for aging of the coffee or humidity changes, as it has not been necessary, not once in a week.

ken

[AndyS]

I continue to be amazed by the pours I'm getting, with lower bean dosage and no hoohah whatsoever. I'm just spooning the ground coffee in 2 or 3 spoonfuls from the ramekin into the PF, then doing a fast half-assed tamp, then voila! Perfect and repeatable pours

What brand of ramekin? What is its diameter?

Teaspoon or tablespoon?

Whatever you do, don't change your socks, that'll ruin the whole thing.

[RapidCoffee]

The irony of my role in this is that my solids extraction theory on why lower doses are more palatable is not holding up. Down dosing does work with all the TGP grinders for making lighter, acidic roasts palatable, but the solids extraction is not rising much, or at all.

Perhaps what is being extracted has a more profound influence on taste than how much is being extracted.

I'm beginning to think so -- you wouldn't happen to have an MS/CG for rent among all your goodies?

I can check.

[Ken Fox]

What brand of ramekin? What is its diameter?

Teaspoon or tablespoon?

Whatever you do, don't change your socks, that'll ruin the whole thing.

The one I prefer was made by Revol. a French company, although I have used Chinese ones also. The diameter of the Revol is 9cm.

Teaspoon.

No socks this time of year except for hiking, otherwise, sandals.

ken

[Psyd]

The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.

[JonS]

The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.

Just a thought, but, depending on how large doses you were using previously, is it not possible that the much thinner puck of coffee is being heated to a greater extent by the brew water passing through it, than a thicker puck would be ? Might this explain darker, more bitter pours ? Have you tried a slightly lower temperature ?

I have to say, I've been an interested follower of Jim's posts and articles about smaller doses, but I'd never really managed to put it into practise successfully. My pucks were just falling apart and channeling the last time I tried. Reading Ken's take on it, I can see my main error was probably aiming for too large a pour from a greatly reduced dose, and hence grinding too coarse. Definitely, I remember seeing an avalanche effect where things went really badly wrong as the grind reached a certain level of coarseness.

Fast-forward to today, and I've tried this again, scales, ramekin, teaspoon and all. I've had only limited success recently with Finca La Fany Bourbon, despite reading really positive comments on it. Trying a 14g dose seemed to really balance things out, and I got a much smoother cup, with far more of the flavours I'd expected from the cupping notes. The puck seemed far more evenly saturated, and the pour held together nicely.

I'll be trying this a lot more in the near future, even if I am somewhat disappointed that, having banished much of the ritual from my espresso-making routine, I now have to involve a ramekin and a teaspoon, and dust off my scales

[Jasonian]

The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.

From my experiences, not every coffee's essence is best expressed in its entirety.

In other words, some coffees just don't work as well with a lighter dose. Past crop green especially can be an issue, not to mention just plain stale coffee.

[another_jim]

I'll be trying this a lot more in the near future, even if I am somewhat disappointed that, having banished much of the ritual from my espresso-making routine, I now have to involve a ramekin and a teaspoon, and dust off my scales

This is a serious issue. A huge amount of ones expertise at being a home barista, or anything else for that matter, is local knowledge -- the practiced-in motions of doing something familiar, and the almost unconscious knowledge of how your particular equipment will respond to it. Changing routine is always going to be a PITA, and the immediate payoff is almost always going to be worse quality. So any change in routine has to have a fairly large upside to be worth it.

My guess is that as lower or more variable dosing becomes common, people will figure out faster and smoother ways to do it. But when starting out, eyeballing probably won't work, since, at least my eyeballs, have gotten used to rim filled baskets over the last 30 years of owning espresso machines. Punctiliously weighing doses is probably the best way of starting out.

FWIW, Since I don't use a hopper on my grinders, I just switched from spooning beans into the grinder throat to weighing them in a shot glass, then using that level to volume dose (for testing, I weigh the grinds, of course). In general, this is accurate to around 1/3 gram, same as a properly adjusted doser or timer.

[Psyd]

Past crop green especially can be an issue, not to mention just plain stale coffee.

I'm using Larry's 'Classic Espresso' (Rocket) and you know better than to suggest that I'd use stale beans! ; >

As far as the temp goes, I'm playing with one variable at at time. Still getting a bit of a donut, and still a bit of the occasional spritzer, but maybe that stuff oughta go back on my technique thread? I thought that the downdosing might be the answer, but I'll try down dosing and flushing a bit more (I'm already doing a ten ounce flush!)
OTOH, the Silvia Rocky is producing amazing results, both espresso and foam. I poured a beautiful swan and a rosetta out of the same steam pitcher the other morning, on top of a coupla beautiful redheaded doppios!

[cannonfodder]

Try dropping your brew pressure 0.5 bar, light tamp, fine grind and see what happens. I was forced to down dose when I got my Elektra, they have a deep shower screen and hate to be overdosed. 16g is pushing the envelope, 14-15 is the norm for me now. With that reduced dose I had melt down extractions for a month while I adjusted. To get by, I lowered the brew pressure to 8 bar, ground finer and tamped lighter. I barely tamp at all now. I give my portafilter one downward thump on my tamp stand to settle the grinds and then tamp with very light pressure. After a month or two I ramped the pressure back up to 9 bar and all is well.

A note on brew pressure, most espresso machine gauges are of adequate quality, but far from precise. When I reset my pressure, I use a portafilter mounted gauge and set the pump for 130psi at the group, not the onboard pressure gauge. On my Elektra, the pump pressure shows more like 9.7 bars but I get 9 bars at the puck. The difference is even more dramatic if you are using a vibratory pump.

[Jasonian]

Then I'll mirror Dave's advice to grind finer and tamp lighter.

It should help a little.

Just watch the temperature with the Classic under such conditions. Go a touch lower than you normally would.

[cannonfodder]

Keep in mind, that worked for me, on my machine/grinder/blend/tamper/basket/etc... your mileage may vary.

[JonS]

My guess is that as lower or more variable dosing becomes common, people will figure out faster and smoother ways to do it. But when starting out, eyeballing probably won't work, since, at least my eyeballs, have gotten used to rim filled baskets over the last 30 years of owning espresso machines. Punctiliously weighing doses is probably the best way of starting out.

Absolutely, I agree. (although I can't compete with 30 years, not for about another 27 years, anyway!)

FWIW, Since I don't use a hopper on my grinders, I just switched from spooning beans into the grinder throat to weighing them in a shot glass, then using that level to volume dose (for testing, I weigh the grinds, of course). In general, this is accurate to around 1/3 gram, same as a properly adjusted doser or timer.

Oddly enough, at least for the short term, a couple weeks back, I stuck the hopper back on my Mazzer because I wanted to check how much difference I saw in terms of the effect of reduced popcorning. The difference was subjectively enough to leave it on for now vs. my previous "tamper in the throat" (grinder's, not mine) approach. Otherwise, I think weighing on the way in would be more straightforward for me, especially as that's what I was doing for a while when I upgraded machine and grinder at the start of the year.

On balance, the upheaval and re-evaluation of method is worth the general results I'm seeing

Jon

[Jasonian]

Keep in mind, that worked for me, on my machine/grinder/blend/tamper/basket/etc... your mileage may vary.

My experiences have agreed with yours, but still.

[k7qz]

Ken-

I find this "series" of yours remarkably helpful. I've been playing with it now for several days. Every so often something comes along that revolutionizes my espresso. For example, as we don't drink much decaf at my hacienda, I use a little Rancilio Rocky SS DL as my decaf grinder. I was never completely happy with the results it turned out until the WDT came along. This "mod" changed everything for Rocky results.

First allow me to set the stage with a bit of inane rambling: when I moved from my DT1 to an A3 a few years ago, I was compulsive about weighing my baskets to consistently hit that 15 or 16 gram mark in LM ridged double baskets. Once I could do that in my sleep, I simply moved to the "weigh by volume in the basket" method and have done that now for the past several months. Honestly, I was too lazy to pull out the digital Ohaus and verify my basket weight every so often.

OK, fast-forward to recently reading your post. As mentioned, I've been trying 14 grams in LM ridged double basket for the past several days now. Result is, in a word, WOW! Iv'e been getting some incredible pours from a Terroir SO at the moment.

Personal Observations:

1) Thanks to Wikipedia, I now know what a Ramekin is. Initially I was imagining it to be something one purchased at an Adult Novelty store...

2) My technique is to tare a small glass pudding bowl as I don't own anything made by Revol and then grind to my target weight of 14 grams. (Although our kitchen scale is a very nice tabletop Ohaus, its accuracy is ± 1 gram given its indented range which limited precise weighing) I set my big Mazzer a few notches finer on the collar.

3) 14 grams mounds beneath the rim of my LM basket, so I had a hard time getting a nice, pretty, level bed of espresso prior to tamping. Thus on the first few pulls using 14 grams, I ran for cover after throwing the brew lever expecting an explosion of blond gusher. Guess what? This didn't seem to matter! I got nothing but one beautiful little pour after another despite what appeared to be a rather haphazard pre-tamp distribution. Hmmm... Either A) no matter how bad your technique is, the A3 will still serve you a good shot or B) I've have just wasted a lot of time futzing over trying to achieve a perfect distribution in the basket prior to tamping. Reminds me of Abe's Italian travelogue post where he noted some of the Italian baristas to break every rule of technique, yet they still served him shots better than what he had received at some of the competitions here...

4) How can this 14 gram shot be so good compared to my "gold standard" 16 gram shot (for an A3)? Well, I went back and weighed my "dose by volume 15-16 gram" shots. Whoa! They're running 17 and 18 grams! My only explanation is that over the months my shot volume amount has slowly and gradually crept up as I've been trying to achieve those perfect looking distributions in the basket. I suspect my palate has gradually acclimatized with this change. Mind you, my shots in no way taste bad (thank you A3) but compared to a "Ken endorsed" 14-gram shot which is smooth, sweet and to use your word "delicate", my current shots would likely in comparison be labeled big, bold and "in-your-face".

5) Lesson learned: Don't be lazy, weigh your shots for consistency from time to time. Maybe once a week?

6) Time to buy a tenth gram scale! Thanks to China and places like scales.com (and others), nice tenth gram scales are within price reach of the masses. For the espresso-OCD people here (aren't we all?) even hundredth gram scales aren't priced too bad...

Ken, thanks again for contributing to better espresso here!

[TimEggers]

This has been a good discussion. Its funny but when I started home espresso I weighed the basket and kept to a 14-16g dose. The basket was always under filled though but using my WDT needle I leveled out the coffee, gently tapped to settle the grounds then tamped and pulled. Shots were great.

Then I began to volume dose by overfilling the basket and leveling before tamping. I thought if this is how the pros do it then must be better. It worked ok but my doses were obviously heavier 14-18g range and the shots were more aggressive. I didn't enjoy quite as much but I stuck to it because I made myself believe it was the better way of doing it.

Now on my Anita the 14g dose still under fills the basket. Why are baskets so big? I know they need to allow for headspace but then that makes me wonder how overfilling then leveling came into practice. I've never been able to do both. At 14g the grind has to be too coarse to overfill the basket for me to get anything but a gusher, so I tighten the grind which means a smaller mound of coffee and the under filled basket. See my situation? How do people overfill, level then tamp and get a 14g good shot? What am I missing?

The hardest thing for us relative newbies is that all you pros (the ones we look up to for guidance) can't agree on anything!

[Ken Fox]

This has been a good discussion. Its funny but when I started home espresso I weighed the basket and kept to a 14-16g dose. The basket was always under filled though but using my WDT needle I leveled out the coffee, gently tapped to settle the grounds then tamped and pulled. Shots were great.

Then I began to volume dose by overfilling the basket and leveling before tamping. I thought if this is how the pros do it then must be better. It worked ok but my doses were obviously heavier 14-18g range and the shots were more aggressive. I didn't enjoy quite as much but I stuck to it because I made myself believe it was the better way of doing it.

Now on my Anita the 14g dose still under fills the basket. Why are baskets so big? I know they need to allow for headspace but then that makes me wonder how overfilling then leveling came into practice. I've never been able to do both. At 14g the grind has to be too coarse to overfill the basket for me to get anything but a gusher, so I tighten the grind which means a smaller mound of coffee and the under filled basket. See my situation? How do people overfill, level then tamp and get a 14g good shot? What am I missing?

The hardest thing for us relative newbies is that all you pros (the ones we look up to for guidance) can't agree on anything!

14g does not come close to filling the baskets I use most of the time, and even with the lower volume baskets I recently bought, after grinding the coffee is below the rim before I lightly tamp and way below the rim after tamping.

I think the extra headspace is a good thing, not a bad thing. Assuming a properly functioning espresso machine set at around 9 bar, I can't think of a reason why a basket which is underfilled but which has appropriately ground coffee reasonably distributed, will produce a bad shot.

The only issue is how one gets 14g (or 12g or 15g) into the basket on a repeatable basis. My solution is to weigh the coffee. Some people think they can do it visually. I don't trust that my sense of this will be repeatable, which is why I'm using a scale.

In Italy, they do this by adjusting the dosers in their grinders, so it is a total non-issue in a busy cafe. In a home setting this is not an option, so you have to find some other way to do it and I find that weighing is a quick and effective solution.

ken