Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 10

[CoffeeOwl]

Dan,

thanks for reply!
in fact, the thread you mentioned is in a way connected to what is being discussed here.
My point (somewhat hidden ) was that the dose, grind and tamp force are not independent variables. Secondly, that the distribution and levelling are crucial. And third point, that some of David Schomer's theorethical claims are mistaken (like for example that a light tamping will result in pitting in the middle of the puck - there's no physics behind it).

Finally, if making a good espresso was all that simple, one could get it decent in just any cafe. Reality is that one can get a whole nightmare of espresso in most, and believe me - they don't overdose here in Poland. Mostly they do something quite similar to what is described here:

I have also found, the last day, that I don't even have to bother distributing the coffee in the PF. I can simply put a couple of teaspoonfuls into the PF from the ramekin, then dump the rest in, and then tamp with maybe 5-10 pounds pressure. Using these sorts of low doses appears to basically prevent channeling with the degree of distribution one gets from spooning in and lightly tamping, period.

yet the result is poor. (Ken, it is not intended as criticism of your technique)

I'm enjoying a series of delicious singles in last days, experimenting with dose and tamp force (but definitely I'm not updosing) and very small adjustments of grind. I use the same beans as in one of the best cafes in Poland. I managed to brew better taste out of their beans then the Master Barista of Poland served me last time I was at their cafe. That's it. I believe we have to find our way to the taste of specific beans, there's no single-best-way.


for the reference i'll post pictures of one my single espresso shots (yet I have to process them, I'm short on time now so it will be a couple of days)

EDIT:
oh and I believe Schomer in his claims that espresso's are watery in Italy... I just read tons of posts about it on TooMuchCoffee forums.

[Ken Fox]

Mkay...

Let me get this straight.

You have posted and presumably post on this and other forums as a "professional," although apparently retired at this point. You have also presented yourself as someone with consummate taste, someone who can define other people's taste, someone who can taste brew temperature differences of 0.1 degree F, well below the capability of the electronics that supposedly deliver it, someone who can taste 1 ppb of retained dishwasher soap on an espresso cup, and so forth. You are not used to having anyone question those pronouncements, which understandably gives you some discomfort when a mere home user such as myself would question you. So be it.

I'm really not all that interested in what is done in cafes; that is a wholly different world, one I am not a part of and seldom visit. I am a home user and I am principally interested in what other home users do.

For a very long time, home users have been presented with one way of doing things, the Schomer/N.American marquee cafe way of doing things, as though it is the best, in fact the only way. But it isn't. If all I accomplish is to get some people to realize that what is being advocated by these people is in fact contrary to the way that these machines were designed to be used, to get them to explore a little a way that emphasizes the coffee and deemphasizes equipment and phony "barista skills," then I will have accomplished more than I set out to do.

ken

[Jasonian]

Mkay...

Let me get this straight... my saying "don't trust dogma, it's all personal and subjective, any claims to universality of rules" is my telling people what "taste" is and my telling people what to do and is 'dogma' --- but your insistence that your way of preparing espresso, your perspective of espresso, your taste in espresso, your roast of espresso and in fact your very definition of espresso is NOT?!?!

Is that correct?



(on a side note... I find it ironic that I'm lumped into the "overdosing" camp. As I've noted many times, I think there is a right dose for each coffee and I've spent the last 4 days working with an espresso that rewards somewhat dramatic under-dosing. but I guess it's easier to make this about up-dosing versus down-dosing than it is to accept that it's about dogma vs freedom.)

I was going to try, but I don't think I could have stated it any better. Thanks Chris.

I think it can be simply stated.

"It's about the coffee". .. not about the equipment.

[Jasonian]

You have posted and presumably post on this and other forums as a "professional," although apparently retired at this point. You have also presented yourself as someone with consummate taste, someone who can define other people's taste, someone who can taste brew temperature differences of 0.1 degree F, well below the capability of the electronics that supposedly deliver it, someone who can taste 1 ppb of retained dishwasher soap on an espresso cup, and so forth. You are not used to having anyone question those pronouncements, which understandably gives you some discomfort when a mere home user such as myself would question you. So be it.

I'm really not all that interested in what is done in cafes; that is a wholly different world, one I am not a part of and seldom visit. I am a home user and I am principally interested in what other home users do.

For a very long time, home users have been presented with one way of doing things, the Schomer/N.American marquee cafe way of doing things, as though it is the best, in fact the only way. But it isn't. If all I accomplish is to get some people to realize that what is being advocated by these people is in fact contrary to the way that these machines were designed to be used, to get them to explore a little a way that emphasizes the coffee and deemphasizes equipment and phony "barista skills," then I will have accomplished more than I set out to do.

ken

The interesting part of that is that you yourself were once in that school of thought, until VERY recently.

You've come full-circle to the point of believing that your new method is the only right way of doing things.

Maybe this phrase just isn't thrown around enough, though to me, it appears to be a well-rotted corpse of a horse.

"There is no standard"

You claim to be only interested in what home users do, yet you've referenced Italian retailers multiple times. Are you not interested in them to the point that you feel the need to reference them as the be-all end-all of espresso wisdom?

I don't think anyone accused or labeled you as "a mere home user".

With the best coffees, I find that I agree that the normale, or sometimes even lower (<14g) doses work exceptionally well. I also find that with only mediocre coffees, I've had to stuff 20g into a double basket to get a drinkable shot. (I've had to dose even more with a well-known espresso as well, and I doubt many of you would consider the particular blend to be "sub-par")

I'm not interested in the equipment enginnering, or the "intended purpose". If all of our equipment were used "as intended", quite a number of us would be drinking stale coffee with far from optimal flavor characteristics.

What I AM interested in, Mr. Fox, is results.

The fact of the matter is that every coffee does not agree with a single dosing parameter. Any competent barista requires the ability to be flexible enough to adjust technique to get the most out of any coffee they're given.

In response to your question of who told me these things... nobody did. It's the result of common sense and experience.

[Ken Fox]

The interesting part of that is that you yourself were once in that school of thought, until VERY recently.

You've come full-circle to the point of believing that your new method is the only right way of doing things.

I keep hoping that Leonard Nimoy will come out of retirement and do some Vulcan mind melds per Dan's suggestion

Honestly, if you or anyone else wants to drink coffees that need to be updosed to 20g to be drinkable, all I can say is more power to ya.

I drink extremely bad coffee for 2 months year when I'm in France trying to improve my French. I've decided that coffee isn't all that important that I can't put up with bad stuff in exchange for other experiences. When I do this, I am using coffee as a drug, a caffeine delivery system, not as a beverage I enjoy drinking.

Once again, for the 112th time on this thread, I am not saying that one has to do what I am doing at the moment. What I am saying is that one should learn how to use this equipment the way that it was designed to be used, as the basic technique. This should be the technique that we recommend to newbies who are starting out, not that they should updose and tamp 30lbs on a bathroom scale.

Anyone who has learned how to use the equipment in the way that it was designed is then free to experiment with variations on the technique, including updosing.

My own taste tells me that this will produce what to me is an unbalanced beverage, a caricature of espresso. But honestly, I don't much care what you or anyone else drinks as long as you don't force me to drink it also.

ken
p.s. as for changing my own technique and my former approach, I have been very upfront about this and don't disclaim any of my former practices, as flawed as they were. Those practices were all I was ever taught. I am hoping to spare others from having to go through years of home experience before they at least try to use the equipment within its design parameters. No one else is saying it, so I will have to continue repeating it, no matter how boring this is becoming.

[AndyS]

You have posted and presumably post on this and other forums as a "professional," although apparently retired at this point. You have also presented yourself as someone with consummate taste....

Frankly, I don't see that insulting Chris Tacy or David Schomer advances your "case." I find that instead, it merely makes you seem narrow-minded and mean-spirited.

I'm really not all that interested in what is done in cafes; that is a wholly different world, one I am not a part of and seldom visit. I am a home user and I am principally interested in what other home users do.

Maybe you SHOULD visit cafes more often; perhaps it would make you less dogmatic and more open minded.

I recently had one of the best espressos of my life at Gimme Coffee in Brooklyn. It was dark roasted, overdosed, distributed, and hard-tamped; in short, everything you disparage.

My recommendation is that you take a nice warm enema, get a good night's sleep, and then visit a quality cafe.

[HB]

Well Andy and Ken, on that happy note, perhaps it's time for a short break? I'm going to lock this thread while I try to purge the image of Andy's suggestion from my mind. It shouldn't take more than a week or two of intense psychotherapy.

UPDATE: To avoid losing follow-on discussions in this already long thread, I split Basket Overdosing: Are triple baskets taboo? to another topic.

[charlesaf3]

Would it be possible to suggest some coffees that seem to benefit from underdosing for those of us without the same level of exposure?

[Ken Fox]

Would it be possible to suggest some coffees that seem to benefit from underdosing for those of us without the same level of exposure?

As a general rule, I would avoid most of the famous "marquee" blends, since these were generally designed for updosing, as they are used in the marquee cafes. My own limited experience with dosing 14g or so with some of these blends has not been very encouraging.

Rather, I would suggest that you try single varietals that have promise for single origin espresso. If you are buying already-roasted coffee, I think you should ask your roaster(s) to recommend something as this will depend in part on the coffee itself and the degree of roast. I have some favorites that I use, but I roast them myself and they are generally no longer available in either green or roasted form, as they are from the last crop cycle. Every crop brings new single origins suitable for use in espresso, but like all crops, they vary from season to season, so I'd be reluctant to recommend any particular one based on last year's crop.

ken

[charlesaf3]

ah. I do home roast, but didn't want to add the rather extensive variables in my roasting to the mass of variables I'm already dealing with with the new Vivaldi II and Cimbali max hybrid - I'm sinking (or sink shotting!) fast enough already!

Maybe I'll try to do some espresso monkey a little lighter than usual.

[Ken Fox]

ah. I do home roast, but didn't want to add the rather extensive variables in my roasting to the mass of variables I'm already dealing with with the new Vivaldi II and Cimbali max hybrid - I'm sinking (or sink shotting!) fast enough already!

Maybe I'll try to do some espresso monkey a little lighter than usual.

Maybe if you can tell me what is in your green stash at the moment, then I could suggest something to try?

ken

[Scott Bakula]

Besides using a scraper, is there a consistent method for leveling a 12-14g dose (which will be well below the top edge of a standard double basket)? After all, using a scraper is not really leveling, since the coffee surface ends up concave prior to tamping. Is there a better method that makes the pretamped coffee truly level, and so more evenly distributed?

thank you

[charlesaf3]

re leveling: - I've been knocking the basket with the tamper (prior to tamping!) I find this gets a pretty good level going, and I'd guess a decent distribution to boot. The genius of Ken's approach should be that distribution is much less important in any case.

Re green beans - I've got the Sweet Maria's standards - Moka Kadir, Liquid Amber, Monkey, and Decaf Donkey. You recommend roasting just into second crack? That will definitely take some effort on my part, but I'll play with it.

[Ken Fox]

re leveling: - I've been knocking the basket with the tamper (prior to tamping!) I find this gets a pretty good level going, and I'd guess a decent distribution to boot. The genius of Ken's approach should be that distribution is much less important in any case.

Re green beans - I've got the Sweet Maria's standards - Moka Kadir, Liquid Amber, Monkey, and Decaf Donkey. You recommend roasting just into second crack? That will definitely take some effort on my part, but I'll play with it.

Charles,

I haven't bought those SM blends in ages, but of the group I think the Moka Kadir would be the best to try, since it is a blend of Mochas and I've had good luck recently with Ismaili which may be a constituent of the blend.

I'd suggest roasting it no further than the onset of 2nd (e.g. first tiny bit of 2nd, dump the beans, go no further, don't wait until 2nd starts to roll). If you know your roaster well enough to stop a few seconds before 2nd starts, you could try that as well and see which you prefer.

Let us know how it turns out!

ken

[malachi]

Would it be possible to suggest some coffees that seem to benefit from underdosing for those of us without the same level of exposure?

Ecco Reserve responds nicely.
Terroir Northern responds very well indeed.

[malachi]

re leveling: - I've been knocking the basket with the tamper (prior to tamping!) I find this gets a pretty good level going, and I'd guess a decent distribution to boot. The genius of Ken's approach should be that distribution is much less important in any case.

Re green beans - I've got the Sweet Maria's standards - Moka Kadir, Liquid Amber, Monkey, and Decaf Donkey. You recommend roasting just into second crack? That will definitely take some effort on my part, but I'll play with it.

It's going to be very challenging to get good distribution when down-dosing if you knock the basket at all.

[The_Mighty_Bean]

In order to do it right, you really need an accurate scale, one that can weigh down to half a gram or less. This sort of scale is readily available for around $30.
ken

By the way, I hate to see anyone avoid this experiment over price concerns. I got my 0.5g-accurate scale new, over Ebay, for under eight bucks, shipping included. It's just barely big enough for the job (I have to use a special expanding basket that it came with), a more conveniently sized scale is about $10-15.


~tMb

[EspressoObsessed]

I am having great results (in terms of distribution when underdosing) by dosing into a yogurt cup in the portafilter, then using a couple of quick flicks of my wrist to break up clumps and fluff the grinds. When it looks pretty even, I tap once or twice, take off the yogurt cup, and use my index finger if needed to level out any valleys. An easy tamp and polish, and my tiger striping and flow have been very even.

Mary

[nixter]

I was directed to this thread after posting about discovering a 14g double on my own. I was having inconsistency problems with volume dosing from my Grinta. After measuring 14g and then dumping that into the PF I found that before tamping my grind was already well below the rim of the double basket, whereas before I was dosing level to the rim. I'd guess at least 3 or 4 grams more. The improved shots are obvious as I have a naked PF.

n

[malachi]

...I'd guess...

You're evaluating coffee produced with an uncontrolled variable (dose volume) against one with that variable controlled and are coming to the conclusion that is the weight of the dose that resulted in consistent shots?