Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 7

[Randy G.]

There's your problem, Randy. You haven't learned to shake your BUT like he did.

Ef ewe gies keap makyng fuun uf mi tipung aynd spiling, eye um goying to half two feynd ay gnu fourem!

[RegulatorJohnson]

try this one..

http://www.statespellingchimp.com

hey ken ... what part of idaho? near salt lake city?

jon

[RapidCoffee]

Or this one: Anguish Languish.

(But if you really want to see something scary, try grading student papers... )

[cafeIKE]

Ef ewe gies keap makyng fuun uf mi tipung aynd spiling, eye um goying to half two feynd ay gnu fourem!

Fine by us!!!

[Psyd]

I asked him what coffee they were using and he wouldn't tell me. I wanted to get some to try to attempt to duplicate something close at home- or at least try. Some paths are gated and locked.

I get in the habit of smiling a bit sarcastically, and walking away from those who would try to sell us the magic, but not the magic secret. The blend that they pull, and the resulting shots, is supposed to make the connection in your lil rat brain that if you buy an NS machine, this is what you're espresso is like. To show you what it is capable of, and not allow you the tools to compare it to someone else's machine with the same ingredients, shows that "It's the coffee stupid, the machine just gets the water hot". While this may or may not be true, the act of hiding the coffee suggests that at least one person there believes it to be.
I had a similar experience with the new roaster here. I asked him what beans he used in his espresso blend. He said it was a secret. I responded that, while the exact blend and the exact method of roasting should be a secret if your business is selling your craft (roasting and blending beans ) as well as coffee, I'd be far more interested in the coffee if I knew what was in it as opposed to just knowing that it was some kind of coffee. I've got money in my pocket, and a choice to make. "I won't tell you what you're buying" means that I'm moving on. He told me, understanding my point of view immediately without the preceding hyperbole, and I bought the beans. Nice blend, you can dance to it, I'll give it an eighty-six.
The decaf is amazing, though. While I never expect a decaf to hold a shadow of the caffeinated version of the blend, I'll rate them against other decafs, with a pro-rated scale. This one blows me away (as I drain my cup) with a caramel note so intrinsic that its reminiscent of the carnival midway! But I digress...

Some machines have a thicker dispersion block. That protrudes further into the basket reducing the overall depth in the basket. The Elektra machines are one that comes to mind (since I have one). If you try jamming 19 grams of coffee in the stock double basket she will spray you down with coffee jets.

I've been thinking about that. If you added a mil to the thickness of the PF gasket, you could increase that headspace. It brought it to mind because CMA has a habit of using different sizes on a lot of their groups, and from year to year on the same model (*sigh*) and I got slightly thinner gaskets with paper spacers this time around. I decided to forget the spacers, and just go with the gasket. Next time, I shop for the right gasket, and possibly 'updose' the gasket and see if I can still lock in with confidence. CF, you participated in my technique thread a while back, and lately I'm thinking that this may have contributed.

[Marshall]

I had a similar experience with the new roaster here. I asked him what beans he used in his espresso blend. He said it was a secret. I responded that, while the exact blend and the exact method of roasting should be a secret if your business is selling your craft (roasting and blending beans ) as well as coffee, I'd be far more interested in the coffee if I knew what was in it as opposed to just knowing that it was some kind of coffee. I've got money in my pocket, and a choice to make. "I won't tell you what you're buying" means that I'm moving on.

Why? Are you boycotting Coke until they turn over the ingredient list to you? If a roaster's blend is wonderful, why wouldn't you buy it, anyway?

I start from the assumption that what goes into someone's proprietary blend is none of my business, but that if the roaster wants to share it, I feel privileged and enjoy discussing it with him/her.

[Psyd]

Why? Are you boycotting Coke until they turn over the ingredient list to you? If a roaster's blend is wonderful, why wouldn't you buy it, anyway?

I'm not drinking Coke, but it's not for what they won't tell me thats in it, but what they will! ; >
OTOH, if I'm getting a blend on the internet, or something local from a new guy, he's got to tell me something objective about the blend before I want to buy. "It's really good" ain't gonna cut it. It isn't a case of a wonderful roast that I already like, it's a case of an unknown roast that I'm curious about.

I start from the assumption that what goes into someone's proprietary blend is none of my business, but that if the roaster wants to share it, I feel privileged and enjoy discussing it with him/her.

I start from the assumption that there is a goal and there is a path to reach that goal. While I may not be privy to the treasure map, or where the 'x' is, I should be given a bit of some idea of what I'm buying beyond 'coffee'.
I prefer something akin to, "We've blended a Costa Rican coffee for brightness with a bit of a citrus and a spicy chocolate finish, and a Gethumbwini Kenyan Peaberry to compliment that citrus with a great silky mouthfeel and a pineapple suggestion, and finally a Harrar to confuse you and add some berry and spice, with a bit of musk and wild game" to "It's an exciting coffee that 's reminiscent of floating above the clouds on a rainy, sombre, pacific northwest afternoon, with the comfort of an old, worn favorite blanket."
If you can't tell me what I'm buying, why am I speaking to you? If you're not proud of your blend, why are you there? If you think that I can take the three beans that you use to make your espresso blend and get the same thing at my house, don't quit your day job.
Roasters are masters of their craft. While there should be secrets in what they do (the mystery is part of the fun) I'm not of the opinion that the ingredients are part of that deal. Heck, even Coke has to list the ingredients on the side of the bottle.
Look, I'm not the kind of guy that can glean all of the details from the bean that it will have to offer, my espresso is simply, crap, drinkable, good, really good, or OMG. If there is something in the blend that is a hammer, I'll get it. I get chocolate a lot, caramel occasionally, a bit of wine once in a while, and some subtle citrus. That's fairly recent, and I'm starting to associate certain origins with certain things I'm fond of, and certain things I'm less fond of. If I know where the beans originate, and I know what to expect from that bean, I can pick out it's contribution to the blend and start to figure out which ones I like and which ones I don't. In future, it would follow that I will be able to discuss the blend with the roaster and decide which of their offerings I will prefer.
If I continue buying willy-nilly, I will have to get the SO's to identify the qualities that each is endowed with, and never get the benefit of the roaster's knowledge.
I don't need to know how to build a car, but if I ask what's under the hood, the guy should be able to describe the powerplant in some detail.

[cannonfodder]

Or this one: Anguish Languish.

(But if you really want to see something scary, try grading student papers... )

Or read one of my un-edited bench posts. But with the help of copy editor Dan and Professor John, I may get my grammar correct one day.

[Psyd]

But with the help of copy editor Dan

I thought I was the only one! I'll take this opportunity to thank Dan once again, for making a number of my contributions better, and easier to access/understand. Thanks Dan!

[Ken Fox]

hey ken ... what part of idaho? near salt lake city?

jon

South Central

[ntwkgestapo]

Just purchased a digital scale @ Harbor Freight Tools that looks amazingly like the one Ken mentioned earlier (the one from Hong Kong) for $12.99 including cheap china sourced batteries (not installed, just in a separate blister in the plastic packaging). seems to work just fine, reads to 0.1 grams. You can see it here: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/...f?itemnumber=93543 . Regularly $17.99 but it's on sale right now for $12.99. IF you've got a harbor freight tool store in town, easy to pick up... Haven't tried it with coffee yet but it measures MOST of the pennies in my pocket @ 3.1 grams (there's an outlier in there which measures @ 2.4g.... haven't looked to see if it's on of the ones they made with a different alloy.)...

I have NO commercial interest in Harbor Freight and gain NOTHING from this info! Just letting those who might want something like this know there's a local source (for many, at least!).

EDIT: corrected the URL. had the SEARCH url in it instead of the actual item URL. Fixed now!

EDIT #2: I just noticed that the price on the web-page is $9.99! no idea on shipping costs tho!

[Ken Fox]

Just purchased a digital scale @ Harbor Freight Tools that looks amazingly like the one Ken mentioned earlier (the one from Hong Kong) for $12.99 including cheap china sourced batteries (not installed, just in a separate blister in the plastic packaging). seems to work just fine, reads to 0.1 grams. You can see it here: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/...f?itemnumber=93543 . Regularly $17.99 but it's on sale right now for $12.99. IF you've got a harbor freight tool store in town, easy to pick up... Haven't tried it with coffee yet but it measures MOST of the pennies in my pocket @ 3.1 grams (there's an outlier in there which measures @ 2.4g.... haven't looked to see if it's on of the ones they made with a different alloy.)...

I have NO commercial interest in Harbor Freight and gain NOTHING from this info! Just letting those who might want something like this know there's a local source (for many, at least!).

EDIT: corrected the URL. had the SEARCH url in it instead of the actual item URL. Fixed now!

EDIT #2: I just noticed that the price on the web-page is $9.99! no idea on shipping costs tho!

Not that this matters much, but it is not the same scale. The cheap HK scale measures up to 1kg, not 500g, which would be useful if you wanted to tare a bottomless PF on the scale as opposed to a ramekin or other small recepticle. It also looks a little different. There is nothing very special about the scale I mentioned from HK, and there are many contenders in the cheap 0.1g digital scale universe.

ken

[ntwkgestapo]

Hey, I was just mentioning that there was a SIMILAR scale available from a local (in some areas) store. While I can find 2kg and up scales here (with 1 gram resolution), finding a scale locally that had 0.1g resolution was something special (not that I CAN'T find lab-quality scales locally that would do the trick, but $200 and up when I can get one for $13 that meets my needs...). While it might be nice to do a bottomless PF, I'm willing to tare the filter basket and work from there! For others, that may not be a viable solution.

I have a friend who owns a calibration lab. One of these days, soon, I'm going to take this little scale over there and check it with his small NIST traceable weights. Just to see how it goes!

[gitano1]

Based on Ken's advice I bought a scale. I measure out 15 Grams for my double shot in my naked PF. I get picture perfect flow and the most consistent and best espressos I have produced in more than 20 years. I made a latte for a friend this morning. She normally buys hers in commercial outfits. She said it was the best latte she had ever had. She is coming back in the morning for another. I have made good lattes in the past, but consistency was hard to achieve. Measuring out the grinds into a ramekin, weighing them, and tamping consistently makes all of the difference. I am using about 5 to 6 grams less per cup than I used to and the espresso is consistent and better than any I ever brewed before.
Ken knows whereof he speaks. I am a believer. I have been convinced by the evidence of my own experience. Thank you Ken.

[mikep]

Okay, it appears most people who try it agree that using a reduced dose reduces or eliminates the need for the 'sensitive barista's touch' in the distribution and tamp.

Would it follow then, that a LM Swift grinder could be a real advantage in a commercial setting (presuming the tamp pressure could be reduced, and the dose set appropriately)? Could the Swift produce a shot equal to that of a traditionally dosed and tamped shot from a skilled barista?

[Ken Fox]

Okay, it appears most people who try it agree that using a reduced dose reduces or eliminates the need for the 'sensitive barista's touch' in the distribution and tamp.

Would it follow then, that a LM Swift grinder could be a real advantage in a commercial setting (presuming the tamp pressure could be reduced, and the dose set appropriately)? Could the Swift produce a shot equal to that of a traditionally dosed and tamped shot from a skilled barista?

My response would be, "who needs a Swift, if you dose as the espresso machines are designed for?"

I weigh out the ~14g, spoon it into the PF in 2 spoonfuls, then knock the rest in directly. I do absolutely ZERO distribution, then twirl the tamper around in the basket for a couple of seconds. That's it. A small child or even a monkey could be trained to do this quite easily.

And I get virtually zero channeled shots.

The point is that no fancy basket distribution or tamping is needed. If what you are addressing is using the Swift to accurately dose into the PFs, I'm sure it could do that. At the same time, a cafe that was busy enough could simply adjust their doser chambers (or more likely, leave them as they were set at the factory, which presumably is for ~7g in each chamber) and then rely on the doser to do the dosing which would obviate the need for a Swift or a scale.

ken

[k7qz]

I get picture perfect flow and the most consistent and best espressos I have produced in more than 20 years.

Gitano:

I know- amazingly simple technique. I think you'd have fun playing with it a little as well. You know: 14 vs. 15 vs. 16 grams in your double basket. (perhaps 14.00, 14.50, 14.75 grams )

I've been doodling with my triple basket shots as well: 16.00 grams, 17.00 grams, 18.00 grams per LM triple basket.

It's really interesting to see how not only the flavor profile changes with dosing but also the uniformity of the tiger striping in the pour as well- with all other things being similar paying no real attention to distribution and using a simple little tamp.

[mikep]

My response would be, "who needs a Swift, if you dose as the espresso machines are designed for?"

Well it just seems like grinding a consistent dose (fresh ground per shot) at a busy cafe would be most easily and efficiently accomplished by the Swift (or something else like it).
It seems like the elimination of the manual distribution and tamping process is the reason the Swift is sometimes looked down upon for shot quality. It would be funny if this 'disadvantage' was actually the opposite of true.

[Ken Fox]

Well it just seems like grinding a consistent dose (fresh ground per shot) at a busy cafe would be most easily and efficiently accomplished by the Swift (or something else like it).
It seems like the elimination of the manual distribution and tamping process is the reason the Swift is sometimes looked down upon for shot quality. It would be funny if this 'disadvantage' was actually the opposite of true.

I think it is simply a matter of the dose used. As any number of people have observed and reported, the standard operating procedure in Italian cafes is for the barman to discharge the doser into the portafilter, unceremoniously tamp upwards on the grinder's built in tamper, then pull the shot which is normally quite good. The foofah procedures one sees (predominently in North America), everything from bathroom scale or handstand tamps, to using lab instruments to stir up the coffee, only become useful when one updoses.

I think whether or not one uses a Swift is irrelevant. And, there are grinders whose dosers are sufficiently accurate that very little additional accuracy in dosing could be expected from a Swift.

ken

[Scotto]

First let me state what a fascinating thread this is. That being said, I have recently made some changes to my procedure which has led to significant improvement in my espresso. The main change is a move to a "LaMarzocco" ridgeless basket in my Silvia. Interestingly, I haven't changed my dose much (which runs about 16g when I bother to measure it), but something about the added headspace above the puck has nudged the needle of espresso goodness into the delicious zone. With the stock Silvia double basket, I would overfill and swipe off the excess, which left little headspace above the coffee. The shots were good, but I was plagued with dead spots during the pour. The pucks were dry and hard.

Using the same amount of coffee, this now barely fills the new basket. I just fill, tamp, and lock in, and the deadspots and channeling are gone. The pucks are now much damper (though they still hold together), and I would say the extraction is more complete. My naive theory, such as it is, is that an updosed shot will not wet enough, leading to preferential flow through certain areas of the puck. With my new increased headspace, things are getting wetted more evenly, leading to a better shot.

It would be interesting to separate out the two variables - dosing weight versus space between top of puck and shower screen.

-Scotto