Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 6

[courghan]

Ken, I see your point and I am happy not be alone in thinking that too make a good or a very good espresso someone does not need years of training and spending thousands of euro/dollars on extra add-ons and modifications to their gear. Don't get me wrong: I am a mechanical engineer and I love modding stuff. After having my gear for only 3 months I was already over the drawings to try and see how it could be better...but knowing that there is, in fact, a lot of R&D around the coffee gear, as well as a lot of passion, I started to think that maybe they were not needed. Some mods and techniques are useful to adapt the prosumer gear to a light home use, but I think are not essential for a good cup. Of course I will keep on modding but that's because I love doing it!
I agree that all the italian coffee blends you buy out of Italy is old and not properly...but when I was in Rome I managed to make good espressos using pre-ground coffee (only some selected brands that I have never seen abroad, such as Pellini, Vergnano, Palombini, etc) and my father's Gaggia espresso!
It is also true that Italians in Italy are much less "fussy" about espresso and, in my opinion, that's because we can drink a good espresso pretty much at every corner of the street, from 6am to 11pm, 365 days a year. Only a few places in Rome, for example, i would say have a great great espresso and they are mostly places that roast their own coffee almost on daily bases. Same applies for Pizza: in Rome I can have an amazing pizza in some places, a good one pretty much everywhere and i would have to specifically look for a really crap one. I am sometimes amazed by the quality of the espresso in some coffee shops when i am abroad as well as I am aware of the extremely low quality of the average espresso in the same countries.
I think it goes down to the fact that out of Italy the espresso is still some sort of a speciality coffee, same as any other kind of coffee, beside espresso, is virtually unknown in Italy. I am sure many of you would be disgusted by the americanos you would be served in the vast majority of the coffee shop in Italy.
I believe that the philosophy behind the whole home-user espresso gear was originally to give people the possibility to drink a better coffee than the one made with a moka, which is still what 99% of italian uses for their home coffee. An espresso in Rome is between 50 and 90 euro cents making it more convenient to buy one in a bar every time you want than spending 1000+ euros to make it at home. Unless someone has a passion for making it, as I have, as you have.
What drives us to put all this time and effort in coffee making is a passion, a satisfaction that we get - I guess - more in making the perfect cup than actually drinking it and knowing that WE have made that perfect cup (I am the same for cooking but that will take another forum... ) !

[Ken Fox]

I think it goes down to the fact that out of Italy the espresso is still some sort of a speciality coffee, same as any other kind of coffee, beside espresso, is virtually unknown in Italy. I am sure many of you would be disgusted by the americanos you would be served in the vast majority of the coffee shop in Italy.
I believe that the philosophy behind the whole home-user espresso gear was originally to give people the possibility to drink a better coffee than the one made with a moka, which is still what 99% of italian uses for their home coffee. An espresso in Rome is between 50 and 90 euro cents making it more convenient to buy one in a bar every time you want than spending 1000+ euros to make it at home. Unless someone has a passion for making it, as I have, as you have.
What drives us to put all this time and effort in coffee making is a passion, a satisfaction that we get - I guess - more in making the perfect cup than actually drinking it and knowing that WE have made that perfect cup (I am the same for cooking but that will take another forum... ) !

Home espresso making has changed dramatically in the last few years. It was not long ago, may be 10 or 12 years ago, when the selection of home equipment was so limited that I chose to buy a 1 group commercial machine, rather than one of the rather useless toy like machines that were being sold for home use.

The internet came out of the United States, and for a long time, the USA was the major market for home espresso gear. Given the propensity here to put enormous quantities of milk into coffee drinks, combined with the American love of all things excessive, I don't think it is at all surprising how American home, and internet based, espresso preferences evolved in the way that they have.

It is rare to find an Italian on any of the coffee forums. I extend to you a warm welcome as I am sure is extended by all of the regular HB participants.

ken

[Ozark_61]

...combined with the American love of all things excessive..

That's getting a little excessive now, Ken, we got it.

Geoff

[Psyd]

It is rare to find an Italian on any of the coffee forums.

Expect another. A DP friend of mine from Italy always tries to be the one to come pick up gear from me when his production company rents from me, as I always make him an espresso. (BTW, he just left, and he dumped a teaspoon and a half of sugar into his doppio, and looked at me like I'd grown a second head when I asked if he took sugar!)
He asked a few questions about how to get good results from his two home machines and I sent him here.

[jgriff]

I just read this ENTIRE thread, and I have a few comments and questions. First, I finally bought a gram scale the other night and weighed my dose for the first time this morning. There are two double baskets I normally use: the stock version that came with my Anita, and a "ridgeless LM" basket I bought from EPNW. Dosing Hair Bender into the ridgeless with a little tap and doing a sort of NSEW sweep/Stockfleth's, I ended up with a whopping 20.3 grams in the basket! I tried again without the tap and still got around 19g. In the stock basket it was around 18g or 17g with no tap.

With all that said, the shots I've been pulling lately have been some of the best I've ever made at home. They've been on par with or better than the shots I get at Stumptown (in my book). I attribute that to my increasing skill level and better understanding of my machine's temperature profile, but still. So now I'm really tempted to try this underdosing thing for real since I have a scale. I've tried it before, but I obviously was still nowhere near 14g. Somehow I don't think Hair Bender is the blend to try it with, though. It seems to have been designed for overdosing, and I don't think there is much expansion of the puck since I only see an imprint of the shower screen at the high doses I have become accustomed to. Also, someone in the know told me it is mostly WP coffees that don't swell much.

Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz. I can understand why people are ending up with a lower volume if they are cutting the shot when it blondes - I get the same results with my e61 HX machine - but does this mean we're still doing something wrong? I rarely get more than 1.5-1.75 oz (estimated) before the shot blondes no matter what my grind setting and dose are.

Thanks for reading.

Justin

[Psyd]

Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz. I can understand why people are ending up with a lower volume if they are cutting the shot when it blondes

Your definition of blonde and someone else's might differ, but it would follow that if you're still pulling two ounces at twenty-murmurmumble seconds at a lower dose, then you are using a finer grind, and that you are removing solubles from the available surfaces of the grinds at the same rate. While the smaller dose has a smaller amount of solubles available, I'm getting near enough the same end result, with a finer grind and a smaller dose as I am from updosing, before blonding.
Not exactly, you're right, but near enough.
Some of the scientists on the fora will be along shortly to correct me on my math, but empirical evidence supports similar results as long as the grinder follows the dose. More easily repeatable, less fussy about details, and some improvements in flavor, (but I prefer the mouthfeel of an updosed ristretto...) but similar visual results.

[HB]

I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz... I rarely get more than 1.5-1.75 oz (estimated) before the shot blondes no matter what my grind setting and dose are.

That's about the same as me. Since you have your scale, expressing the drink in terms of brew ratios may be more illuminating. It's been awhile since I checked, but IIRC, most of mine are around 60%.

[jgriff]

That's about the same as me. Since you have your scale, expressing the drink in terms of brew ratios may be more illuminating. It's been awhile since I checked, but IIRC, most of mine are around 60%.

That's the next step I will take in the name of espresso-geekery. I didn't want to add too many new pieces or make too many changes to my routine at one time. FWIW, so far my results with a lower dose have been fine but I think I prefer a higher dose, at least with Hair Bender. I end up with a really wet puck and it definitely isn't expanding to the point where there is any impression from the shower screen. The taste is definitely more mild, but it lacks the punch I'm accustomed to from this blend. I'm pretty sure they dose around 20 grams at the Stumptown cafes around here.

Your definition of blonde and someone else's might differ. . . .

Honestly, I'm still not sure I know exactly when to cut the shot based on appearance. I've seen videos, Jim's chart, etc., but it can still be kind of elusive to judge the right moment. I guess I should try to whole splitting the shot thing and taste the difference.

Justin

[Ozark_61]

Now my question . . . What is considered a double in Italy? It seems like some people might be getting volumes more akin to a single than a double when they go to a lower dose. I mean, in my book a 1.25 oz double is considered a ristretto. Is that not true? I thought a traditional double was around 2 oz..

Justin - when I was in Italy, the barista would often ask if you would like (pardon my Italian spelling) lungo, normale, or ristretto when you order 'un caffe'. IIRC - normale usually looked like it was in the 1.75-2 oz range.

Geoff

[jgriff]

Justin - when I was in Italy, the barista would often ask if you would like (pardon my Italian spelling) lungo, normale, or ristretto when you order 'un caffe'. IIRC - normale usually looked like it was in the 1.75-2 oz range.

Geoff

That brings up an interesting question. Surely they don't adjust the grinder each time an order is placed for a shot based on the volume the customer asks for, so are they just varying the dose to get a different type of shot?

Justin

[HB]

Honestly, I'm still not sure I know exactly when to cut the shot based on appearance. I've seen videos, Jim's chart, etc., but it can still be kind of elusive to judge the right moment. I guess I should try to whole splitting the shot thing and taste the difference.

Tasting is always a good idea, but if you're looking for yet another rule of thumb, try pulling away the cup and letting the extraction continue. Blonding started about six seconds before the stream became translucent.

[Ozark_61]

That brings up an interesting question. Surely they don't adjust the grinder each time an order is placed for a shot based on the volume the customer asks for, so are they just varying the dose to get a different type of shot?

No they don't adjust for each. Like Dan mentioned, with ristrettos you stop at first signs of blonding - normales and lungos are longer, but I don't know what the guidelines are. Personally, I prefer normale to ristretto.

Geoff

[Psyd]

Tasting is always a good idea, but if you're looking for yet another rule of thumb, try pulling away the cup and letting the extraction continue. Blonding started about six seconds before the stream became translucent.

Indications that I've been able to glean from champs are, the stream starts to become less of a cone, and more of an umbrella (i.e., the diameter of the base of the stream coming from the dispersion screen decreases), 'tiger-striping' stops and becomes on uniform color, )and I think this one was advice from either Heather Perry or Bronwen Serna) if a white spot appears in your crema where the stream enters, you've gone too far.

Of course, the best way to figure out when to stop your shots is to pull three in a row with the middle one at 27 seconds for two ounces, and stop the pull on the others three seconds either side of that. Taste 'em. If the twenty four second one is the best, set the grinder a skoshe tighter and repeat. If the thirty second one is the best, set the grinder a skoshe looser and repeat. If the 27 second one is the best leave it alone!
This should get you somewhere close to where you want your pulls to be with a 'standard' two ounces in 27 seconds, if you feel that you have to hit some marks. This'll also let you know that pulling 'em any longer or any shorter won't make them any better.
Anywhere along the test that you find what tastes best, and any adjustment doesn't make it any better, go back to that setting regardless of what it is, and use that!

[Martin]

No they don't adjust for each. Like Dan mentioned, with ristrettos you stop at first signs of blonding - normales and lungos are longer, but I don't know what the guidelines are. Personally, I prefer normale to ristretto.

Geoff

Machines matter? Couple of comments seem relevant-----even if I can't say how:
1. Several years with an Isomac Tea. A very "forgiving" machine. Worked my way up to a triple basket and pulled shots w/ 20+g. More is better, right? Tried for upper 20s secs. Stopped at blonding. Yadda yadda. Most shots were good and gooder.

2. Nearing a year with my La Spaziale Vivaldi II. This is not a forgiving machine. It does not want more than 17 g. and prefers 16 or less (double). Shots are better and I'm grinding finer. 1.25 oz shots, minimum duration into the upper 20s but often into mid 30s.

3. For several months I disdained the auto-dose feature. After all, I'm a (wannabe) barista, and I'm in charge here. Then I eased into setting the water dose and manipulating grind with consistent light tamp and careful measure of weight. Works for me.

[Marshall]

We're all looking for the magic bullet. The single best technique that will produce consistent, fabulous results. It's an illusion. There are many paths to enlightenment. At home I prefer a lighter dose and tamp.

But, last night at the Intelligentsia opening, I watched Kyle Glanville updose, tap, sweep off and hard tamp one great shot after another. I'm using the very same beans this morning at home. His shots were better than mine (and mine are very good).

No gram scales. No baskets removed and replaced. No stirring. No silly yogurt cups. Just smooth, practiced moves, the way every skilled barista works, whether they tamp hard, light or not at all.

[HB]

We're all looking for the magic bullet.

Not me, I stopped believing in "magic bullets" long ago.

Most of my advice and how-tos are directed towards beginner to intermediate home baristas. They are often very prescriptive in the hopes of increasing their chances of early success. There is a lot to be said for experience. For example, this afternoon I was pulling shots on my travel espresso machine, the Elektra Microcasa a Leva. A couple years ago at the same vacation beach house and using the same equipment, I lamented about the possible effects of high humidity. In contrast, yesterday I had the grinder dialed in for Paradise Roasters Havana Reserve and effortlessly pulled wonderful shots. Today I switched to Klatch Roasting WBC Blend, guessed the change in grind setting based on the "look" of the beans and again pulled wonderful shots.

Evidently I've learned something in the intervening two years, though I don't know what.

[cannonfodder]

Machines matter? Couple of comments seem relevant-----even if I can't say how:

Some machines have a thicker dispersion block. That protrudes further into the basket reducing the overall depth in the basket. The Elektra machines are one that comes to mind (since I have one). If you try jamming 19 grams of coffee in the stock double basket she will spray you down with coffee jets. 16 grams is about all she will take without going bottomless and a triple basket. 14-15 is where I usually run.

[Martin]

Big epiphany (is that redundant?) was to realize that life was less spritzy when I measured 17+g into the basket for my 15-16g shot. I haven't done the math (why do I think that Ken might have?), but this obscene waste is just part of doing coffee business at home.

I also reject the notion of a magic bullet. All I need is my machines, fresh coffee, and my yogurt cup (has to be Yoplait). Well, that and my special double wire stirrer. Have I mentioned my elbow-pivot leveling shake? Has to be 2 up-and-back and 2 side-to-side. I have some special words that I whisper when frothing, but that's about the milk, which we know has an important spiritual component.

Martin

[Randy G.]

We're all looking for the magic bullet. The single best technique that will produce consistent, fabulous results. It's an illusion. There are many paths to enlightenment. At home I prefer a lighter dose and tamp.

To paraphrase Oscar Levant, If I were that insightful and golden-throated, I would REALLY be obnoxious.

For the last couple of weeks I have changed my routine- I use to over-fill gently, level, and tamp. I am now under-dosing just a bit, shaking level, and tamping. My espresso has noticeably improved. Should everyone now do the same? Sure, if for no other reason than it is worth an attempt to see if it works for you. Should you (or I) always under-dose in this way? No. As you said, Marshall, there are many paths that end at our goal, but there are times we reach a dead end and have to backtrack. And I am not weighing the coffee- just thwack-thwack, moving the PF about to get as even of a distribution as I can, visually under-dosing, and moving along from there.

I could also say, everyone's espresso could be better... For those who do not think so I would ask, "Then why are you reading this forum?"

In Seattle an NS rep pulled me a shot on one of their computer-controlled, multi-PID, electronic flow control, etc., espresso machines- half filled basket, NO tamp, just dose, shake a BUT to level, and lock and load. it was the best espresso I think I ever tasted- certainly one of the top 5. I asked him what coffee they were using and he wouldn't tell me. I wanted to get some to try to attempt to duplicate something close at home- or at least try. Some paths are gated and locked.

Gee.. I wish verbose was a virtue...

[AndyS]

In Seattle an NS rep pulled me a shot on one of their computer-controlled, multi-PID, electronic flow control, etc., espresso machines- half filled basket, NO tamp, just dose, shake a BUT to level, and lock and load. it was the best espresso I think I ever tasted- certainly one of the top 5.

There's your problem, Randy. You haven't learned to shake your BUT like he did.