Barksdale 0.05bar pressurestat 1st look

[miKe mcKoffee]

Arrived today and just finished preliminary testing, no leaks! Coupled to boiler via ~1' x 1/4" OD copper tubing already had on hand. (Tomas suggested longer coupling for better cooling and hence better pstat diaphragm life. He actually suggested coiling the tubing but I didn't.) Each tube end required 3 fittings so hence the leak apprehension. (1/4" insert MIP connector fitting, 1/4"M x 1/8"M, and 1/8"F x 1/8"F. Couldn't find a 1/4"M x 1/8"F. Both the boiler and Barksdale 1/8" M) Is indeed toggling 0.05bar heater cycle. But on the Bric' click is going nowhere, the Siemens apparently isn't an SSR but R. It was the major click noise not the Mater! Not that it's that big of deal, can always replace it with an SSR in the future I suppose. A bit of tidying up to do before putting the covers back on. Bye...

[miKe mcKoffee]

Took a few quick pics before buttoning up...

[JonR10]

Kewl!! I'm looking forward to your impressions!

I have ordered one myself, along with a pound of Leftist Blend
Looking forward to trying this out!

[solock]

can you post the specs as to the model of barksdale pstat that you are using? Just really looking to see its details in technical terms.

Ive used barksdale controls in several liquid handling systems, and they come in some high end japanese printing equipment as well. Certainly not steam rated, but from my experience if the company I previously worked for spec'd barksdale then they had no competing japanese component, and while the barksdale components in what I used were pricey, they never failed in my previous applications without some outside (Non internal )interference.

[miKe mcKoffee]

can you post the specs as to the model of barksdale pstat that you are using? Just really looking to see its details in technical terms.

Ive used barksdale controls in several liquid handling systems, and they come in some high end japanese printing equipment as well. Certainly not steam rated, but from my experience if the company I previously worked for spec'd barksdale then they had no competing japanese component, and while the barksdale components in what I used were pricey, they never failed in my previous applications without some outside (Non internal )interference.

'Bout the only specs I can give you are it's called The Little General, switch number MSPS-JJ25-0124 (not quite sure if number correct, going by zooming in one of the original pictures and end numbers not quite clear, not going to open up the Bric' to verify!), adjustment range of 10-24PSI, max installation 100PSI, 15A 125/250v. The ordering "specs" I used were calling GimmeCoffee and saying I want to buy a Barksdale Pstat. They have these custom made for them IIRC. FWIW ran $50.14 including tax and shipping East Coast to West Coast.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Originally set the Barksdale for 1.05-1.1bar heater cycle since Mater was set 1.0-1.1 toggle. Found this to actually run a good 3 to 4f higher which wasn't good for the cheater shot method going strictly by flush volumes I devised for Debi. Lowered to 1.0-1.05bar toggle and still about a degree higher than before with the Mater but close enough since all she'll be making is an americano or faux cap (she just nukes the milk). And she'll only pull a shot if I'm not home to make them for her.

Recently ran a modified WBC Test with the added words "past flash" for the 2sec pre-shot flush. That was with the Mater. Will run again soon with the Barksdale. The limited Scace testing and shot usage since installing yesterday it appears more temp stable but time and testing will tell. I have slightly changed my flush-n-go routine. With the mater I'd first purge the steam wand to force the heater on for a known state. As soon as heater went off (~6sec heater on cycle with Mater) flush to flash for flush-n-go which would kick the heater back on for the start of shot. With the tighter 0.05bar toggle ~3sec idle heater cycle seems unnecessary. Not that it was necessarily necessary before just seemed more consistent!

Hey, the cups so far be good so that's all that really matters anyway!

[miKe mcKoffee]

Forgot the mention change in overshoot. While idle with the Mater's 0.1bar cycle would result in 0.1bar overshoot for 0.2bar total idle pressure band. With the Barksdale's 0.05bar cycle overshoot is now 0.05bar for total band of 0.1bar. This should equate to tighter known starting state. During production with the heater on more than idle 3sec times overshoot returns to 0.1bar.

Edit: I take that back, must have been seeing things last night! Just pulled a shot paying attention to the boiler pressure gauge. Overshoot was always about 0.05bar. Sucker toggles on & off a few times during the shot, attempting to maintain that 0.05bar band, effectively kind of like a 1C PID:-)

[miKe mcKoffee]

That longer copper tubing really does keep the pstat cooler. The tube itself is cool to the touch at the pstat fittings.

Ran a modified WBC test the other day ( modified with 2sec past flash shots). Interestingly results almost identical to the modified WBC I ran with the Mater installed with the intra-shot stability edge to the Mater by about 0.3f tighter average. However, between those tests I'd noticed the volume during test shots was lower than it should be by about a third so took apart and cleaned the Thermofiliter and now was getting proper ~75ml in 25sec. So comparison worthless since was flowing slower with Mater and have elected not to re-install the Mater for a test comparison...though may change my mind for the sake of espresso machine science.

[JonR10]

After much iteration - success!
well, sort of...

My second p-stat really crapped out Friday night and wouldn't hold a stable pressure for more than hour so my hand was forced and I had to finally find a way to connect the Barksdale to the tube.

It's looks pretty Rube Goldberg-ish but at least it's operational. I have emailed TerryZ and co. about what fittings they might have to help me with and I am strongly considering buying both a Jager and a Sirai to compare and contrast. I don't have alot of faith in the current setup.

I didn't take any pictures, but since I couldn't get any straight threaded fittings nor any BSP I got some plastic WATTS (John Guest) fittings and pieced together a 4-part adapter. It's surely gonna leak, actually there is already a very slight drip juuuuust starting to form after 2 hours run-time (I can live with it for the moment). The tube is long enough that the plastic doesn't seem too hot, and it's warm (not hot) easy to touch.

I needed to really crank the adjustment down and it's near the end of its ability but my boiler now runs 1.00 - 1.05 bar. It does have a nice quiet click but not much more quiet than the other p-stats.

I will leave this one on and see how it fares over time. Right now I'm just glad it's working

[Java Man]

After much iteration - success!
well, sort of...

My second p-stat really crapped out Friday night and wouldn't hold a stable pressure for more than hour so my hand was forced and I had to finally find a way to connect the Barksdale to the tube.

The MATER on my Wega Lyra crapped out early this morning. Luckily, my wife heard it and shut the machine off before the opv blew. I swapped out the defective MATER for a used spare I had lying around, and it's running fine . . . for now. But I want to replace it with a Barksdale.

It's looks pretty Rube Goldberg-ish but at least it's operational. I have emailed TerryZ and co. about what fittings they might have to help me with and I am strongly considering buying both a Jager and a Sirai to compare and contrast. I don't have alot of faith in the current setup.

I didn't take any pictures, but since I couldn't get any straight threaded fittings nor any BSP I got some plastic WATTS (John Guest) fittings and pieced together a 4-part adapter. It's surely gonna leak, actually there is already a very slight drip juuuuust starting to form after 2 hours run-time (I can live with it for the moment). The tube is long enough that the plastic doesn't seem too hot, and it's warm (not hot) easy to touch.

Are you running a Wega Lyra? If so, I presume from your post that the thread on the Wega is NOT the same (1/8 NPT) used on the Barksdale?

Do you know specifically what the threads on the MATER are? It shouldn't be that hard to get an adapter to go from the 1/8 NPT on the Barksdale to the (whatever they are) on the Wega . . . but I've been wrong about espresso machine threads before!

Cheers,

Rick

[Ken Fox]

Are you running a Wega Lyra? If so, I presume from your post that the thread on the Wega is NOT the same (1/8 NPT) used on the Barksdale?

Do you know specifically what the threads on the MATER are? It shouldn't be that hard to get an adapter to go from the 1/8 NPT on the Barksdale to the (whatever they are) on the Wega . . . but I've been wrong about espresso machine threads before!

Cheers,

Rick

Go for the long ball, Rick, PID the sucker

[miKe mcKoffee]

I'm not sure what the problem is/was finding a fitting for the Barksdale. I was concerned the the 1/8" male Barksdale appeared to get a bit wider the closer it got to the pstat. (don't know the technical term for this type of fitting) So prior to getting what I needed for the installation called and talked to Tomas @ Gimme Coffee, he who had these custom ordered in the first place. Tomas told me to just use standard 1/8" female fitting and it would expand as tightend. So I simply used a standard 1/8" brass female fittings found in Home Depot plumbing department. Still zero leaks. Did of course use tefon tape on all the threaded fittings.

[JonR10]

I'm not sure what the problem is/was finding a fitting for the Barksdale. I was concerned the the 1/8" male Barksdale appeared to get a bit wider the closer it got to the pstat. (don't know the technical term for this type of fitting) So prior to getting what I needed for the installation called and talked to Tomas @ Gimme Coffee, he who had these custom ordered in the first place. Tomas told me to just use standard 1/8" female fitting and it would expand as tightend. So I simply used a standard 1/8" brass female fittings found in Home Depot plumbing department. Still zero leaks. Did of course use tefon tape on all the threaded fittings.

OK - but that really doesn't apply for the WEGA Lyra.

The threads on the Barksdale are 1/8 NPT (National Pipe thread - tapered)
The threads at the end of the p-stat tube on the Lyra are straight, not tapered, and not NPT.
So it's either BSP (British Standard Pipe) or it's a metric straight thread.

It shouldn't be that hard to get an adapter to go from the 1/8 NPT on the Barksdale to the (whatever they are) on the Wega . . . but I've been wrong about espresso machine threads before!

Believe me, I searched. I went to Home Depot and Furrows and Lowe's.
If you're looking for standard compression male thread-to-NPT or BSP-NPT or NPT-Metric then you're SOL.



I already had a fitting that's 5/16 compression - 1/8 straight thread and it fits the WEGA tube fitting.
The plastic 3/8-tube fitting sealed on that, and then I went with the plastic tbe fitting -1/8 NPT.
And since it was getting too tall already, I installed a brass 1/8 elbow and finally the p-stat laying sideways.

If that fits in with "shouldn't be that hard" then you were spot-on.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Both height issue of multiple fittings and fittings match wise is why I built complete new line including tubing from boiler to Barksdale, as pictured start of thread. Plus I followed Tomas advice to use a long tube to keep pstat cooler. Making my own tubing allowed me to position the pstat however it would fit inside the case without touching anything. All the threads on the Bric' and the fittings I purchased are straight not tapered. Like I said per Tomas straight fitting to tapered Barksdale how they install them, and how I installed it no problem. Maybe an issue could be matching the thread pitch on the Wega boiler itself though. (not referring to the existing tube run)

[Java Man]

I measured the male threads on the MATER with my vernier. They certainly appear to be tapered, and that makes sense since they seal to the threads on the Wega fitting without the need for Teflon tape. My measurement indicates that the threads are ~0.385 inches at the thick end. The closest match to this measurement I've been able to find is 1/8" ISO 7/1, which is spec'd at 0.383 inches. (Swagelock Thread and End Connection Identification Guide, pp. 12. -- thanks again to Eric S.) I don't have a thread pitch gauge, so I can't make a positive ID.

Maybe this is the adapter Wega owners need?

http://www.mcmaster.com/

See part # 4860K141

The male end of the adapter looks as though it may have the same threads as the MATER male thread. If so, this should fit the Wega female fitting.

The female end of the adapter is 1/8 in. NPT -- isn't this the same as the Barksdale?

Incidentally, Mike, the Wega tube that connects the boiler and the pressurestat isn't very long, but it is coiled (3 full turns) to provide some isolation from the heat of the boiler.

Jon, does the adapter from McMaster Carr look as though it would work for you?

Cheers,

Rick

[JonR10]

I measured the male threads on the MATER with my vernier. They certainly appear to be tapered, and that makes sense since they seal to the threads on the Wega fitting without the need for Teflon tape.

Maybe you have a different fitting than I do at the end of your p-stat tube, but mine will absolutely not seal onto a tapered male thread. It is a compression fitting that makes up metal-metal seal against the bottom side of the male nipple using a sliding threaded collar to tighten up.

I'll post pics later when I go back and clean the thing up so you can see what I'm talking about more clearly.

Maybe this is the adapter Wega owners need?

http://www.mcmaster.com/ See part # 4860K141

You're right that the McMaster-Carr Catalog probably does have the right adapters, but that one doesn't work for me (it's a tapered thread).
Besides, there's no outlet in my little town for them (Houston, TX) so I couldn't find the right part over the weekend. Since I'm not sure what threads I actually DO need (except that they are straight and not tapered). So if I want to buy from a catalog I still need to know more.

Like I said, I went to the local hardware stores with my parts in my pocket, and I was SOL looking for something that worked.

Thanks for the link, I'm sure I can special-order some good fittings for this purpose, once I discover what I really need....
My point was that there was nothing available to me locally over the weekend to make this up.

[solock]

Mcmaster Carr is blazingly fast with processing orders, Is Houston within the one or two day ground zone for LA or Chicago? If so, you will get the order ground in that time. McMaster Carr always amazes me with shipping times and never disappoints as far as quality... Just dont ask for a catalog, you need a note from God, cosigned by Elvis to get a paper catalog...

[JonR10]

Mcmaster Carr is blazingly fast with processing orders...

It only helps if you know what you need.

What I need is to have the stuff in my hands so I can determine what fittings will work
I do not want to order a bunch of thread gauge sets

If the kind folks at EPNW will respond to my request for info then maybe I can put something together.

[cannonfodder]

It could be a parallel thread instead of a taper thread. I have a link to a parts supplier with fittings so you can build your own tubing on my work computer from the Faema rebuild. They may have what you need. I will try to remember to post the link.

[JonR10]

It could be a parallel thread instead of a taper thread.

Dave, this is what I have been trying to express all along.
The fitting at the end of the tube won't work with a tapered thread, it's a female parallel thread and requires a MALE parallel threaded mate.

I went back to the McMaster link this evening and SEARCHED but I cannot find any adapters that go to any MALE parallel thread.
NONE. Whomever it was who said "that shouldn't be so hard" obviously does NOT have the same setup as me.

If there's NO OTHER WAY then maybe I will have to build my own new tubing to run from the boiler, but the machine has to be disassembled to get at that end of the tube (the fittings on top of the boiler are very close together so you have to remove others to get at that one).

TerryZ was uncharacteristically unhelpful on the phone today. He seemed preoccupied, and did not seem to know offhand what fitting I needed. I indicated that I might be interested in a Sirai p-stat but he seemed unenthusiastic about that device. He did say if I order one and put in the notes that I need the adapter for my Wega that they would include the fitting for free.

At this point I am very frustrated.


Maybe Chris can be more helpful - he carries the Sirai and the new one (Jager?)
I'm inclined to get both, so I'll try to make time to call them tomorrow and ask about advice, p-stats, and fittings.

Sheesh!