Barista Competitions; Who Gives a Sh**

[Ken Fox]

Guess the title got your attention

Count me as a skeptic on this whole process. What's the point of it, and if there is a point with a measurable endpoint, are these things really getting us any closer to it?

As I understand it, the reasons for doing these competitions are to (1) Elevate the level of specialty coffee as it pertains to espresso, by creating a rising tide lifting all boats; (2) Improve the standing of the "profession" of Barista, giving these folks recognition and hence increasing the numbers of such talented individuals and improving the talent base within those who are baristas.

We can perfunctorily dispense with #2. No one in their right mind is going to consider the job of "barista" as leading to some sort of career that will produce acceptable financial rewards and will lead to retirement with a gold watch 25 or 30 years later. There is no way that this job is going to produce a large enough paycheck over time that will enable the employee barista to support a family and own a home in a desireable place to live. The reason why most barista championship competitors (as noted by Nick in an earlier thread) have only a few months or year's experience is that ultimately people grow up and have other responsibilities that can't be supported on any employee barista's wages.

OK, so then what about the cafe owners who also work as baristas, who compete? They can make enough money to live on. TRUE, but then why should they compete? If they win, what they get are bragging rights and something to note in advertisements. Is this worth the interest of the "espresso enthusiast community" to support? Not in my opinion.

Moving back to #1, what is the evidence that barista competitions have had any impact, whatsoever, on the quality of espresso beverages being offered for sale across the country, the continent, or the world? I travel more than most who will read this and I have seen no evidence, either from what I have experienced or from what I have read, that the likelihood of getting a decent espresso beverage from a randomly selected cafe is noticeably better than before these competitions began. I see no reason to believe that these competitions will have more impact than they have had five years from now, either, because we are dealing with a small clique of cafes that participate in these competitions. Being interested in these events means that your cafe is not representative of the huge installed base of cafes in the country and in the world. So, whatever you do will impact only the Intellys and the Stumptowns and a (relative) handful of other like minded places.

Is it supposed to be news to anyone that if you go to Intelligentsia you are likely to get a decent drink? Did we need last year's USBC to establish that fact? Who cares if some barista in a cafe you will never visit has a "signature drink" composed of espresso and aloe vera lotion on ice, garnished with Brylecream?

I don't see any evidence personally of any improvement in the broader espresso experience from this process. Maybe instead of glorifying the "craft" of being a barista, coming from people who will almost certainly not be working as baristas a few years hence, we should put the same amount of effort into improving the quality of espresso one might randomly find in a randomly selected independent cafe? It isn't like the most obvious things that could be improved haven't been known for years; they have.

ken

[another_jim]

I'm no big fan of watching the competitions; although this aspect is improving. In general, quality based competitions have to be a lot more brutal and less polite than barista competitions are now:
-- scores are always given in real time, not be told a half hour later
-- the audience has to be able to judge for themselves, this will require somewhat improved camera work (pf cam?)

However, these competitions are not meant for an audience; they are meant for the baristas themselves.

Nobody is going to be retiring to Florida as a Meister (B.Ing)* Barista emeritus; but more and more of the baristas active in these competitions are finding it a stepping stone to careers in specialty coffee in general. Competing leads to an interest in roasting, in machine design, in food science, etc, etc. Nobody makes a career as a waiter or sous-chef; but being one at a top flight restaurant is certainly a stepping stone to a career in food; whereas being one at McD is a stepping stone to nowhere.

That leads to the second point. The roasters and cafes who support these competitions and who employ these baristas signal that they are serious about the coffee. It's one of the things they use to distinguish themselves from all the cafes that are not about coffee. In essence, it lets people interested in coffee, either to drink or as a field to work in, know where to go.

The competition itself is having an effect too. While the regular store and roaster blends are used in regional competition; winning at the national or world level requires one uses the best espresso coffees available that year. This highlights those coffees and creates a demand for them.

Finally and most importantly. It seems very likely to me that working as a coffee maven barista even at the best place, and spending 90% of ones time slinging flavored lattes is, to say the least, demoralizing. I'm told that at the top cafes, the percentage of straight espresso and small milk drinks being served is on the rise; but even so, a few celebrations of coffee each year has to do a lot to make the job more fun.

So it may be more appropriate to have titled it "Barista Competition: why should I give a sh**" and say that in your splendid Idaho coffee isolation, you don't. But for the Baristas, the cafes and their regulars, I would think it is a fairly big deal.

* B.Ing, German for Brief Ingeneur, basically a PhD in shop, earned on the job through a long advancement in a skilled trade, one step above Meister. For instance, white collar engineers design the Mercedes, blue collar engineers design the machines and production lines that build the Mercedes.

[Worldman]

I think I go along more with Ken on this one (though I would have phrased it more gently), but then, I am in "coffee isolation" right here in Pittsburgh with the exception of a very few places and even at these only when certain barista are barista-ing. The reality is that at nearly every coffee bar here in Pittsburgh, the beverages are too big (by a factor of >2:1 for mild based drinks and ~1.25:1 for espresso shots). DA__ YOU, *$s!!!

The "signature drink" aspect of the Barista Championships does seem to be just one big bunch of silliness that has little or no application to what one would get (or even want) in a coffee bar.

Len

[Ken Fox]

I'm no big fan of watching the competitions; although this aspect is improving. In general, quality based competitions have to be a lot more brutal and less polite than barista competitions are now:
-- scores are always given in real time, not be told a half hour later
-- the audience has to be able to judge for themselves, this will require somewhat improved camera work (pf cam?)

However, these competitions are not meant for an audience; they are meant for the baristas themselves.

Nobody is going to be retiring to Florida as a Meister (B.Ing)* Barista emeritus; but more and more of the baristas active in these competitions are finding it a stepping stone to careers in specialty coffee in general. Competing leads to an interest in roasting, in machine design, in food science, etc, etc. Nobody makes a career as a waiter or sous-chef; but being one at a top flight restaurant is certainly a stepping stone to a career in food; whereas being one at McD is a stepping stone to nowhere.

That leads to the second point. The roasters and cafes who support these competitions and who employ these baristas signal that they are serious about the coffee. It's one of the things they use to distinguish themselves from all the cafes that are not about coffee. In essence, it lets people interested in coffee, either to drink or as a field to work in, know where to go.

The competition itself is having an effect too. While the regular store and roaster blends are used in regional competition; winning at the national or world level requires one uses the best espresso coffees available that year. This highlights those coffees and creates a demand for them.

Finally and most importantly. It seems very likely to me that working as a coffee maven barista even at the best place, and spending 90% of ones time slinging flavored lattes is, to say the least, demoralizing. I'm told that at the top cafes, the percentage of straight espresso and small milk drinks being served is on the rise; but even so, a few celebrations of coffee each year has to do a lot to make the job more fun.

So it may be more appropriate to have titled it "Barista Competition: why should I give a sh**" and say that in your splendid Idaho coffee isolation, you don't. But for the Baristas, the cafes and their regulars, I would think it is a fairly big deal.

* B.Ing, German for Brief Ingeneur, basically a PhD in shop, earned on the job through a long advancement in a skilled trade, one step above Meister. For instance, white collar engineers design the Mercedes, blue collar engineers design the machines and production lines that build the Mercedes.

OK, then why should we, the online coffee community, devote anything like the verbiage we have to this topic of barista competitions? Are these people doing stuff on the stage that is in anyway unique AND useful, and hence transferable? Or are we just being groupies, with the satisfaction being to hang out at the BG booth at an upcoming SCAA convention?

I have no doubt that what you say is true about the great majority of drinks served, even in signature cafes, being flavored lattes and the like. In order to tolerate and even enjoy such a work environment, the barista needs to enjoy working with the public and being a showman. This makes the barista competitions even less useful in the real world as they are not emphasizing the skills that would make a successful real life barista. In support of this one could note that the current USBC is in fact a web designer for Intelly, not a regular shift barista. Others finalists include a trainer, who presumably does not spent too much of her time serving line drinks to the public.

If you were running a cafe and you wanted to hire someone to work as barista, would you rather have someone who could do well in a competition, a very unnatural and other-world situation, or would you rather have someone who smiles a lot and likes to banter with customers, who remembers their favorite drinks, and makes them feel welcome? Those skills are the skills that will be most transferable for these people to other jobs in the real world, that will make them successful people in the long run. The fact that 90% of the drinks they actually make don't even allow one to "taste" the espresso inside is in further support of my position.

ken

[mikep]

Maybe ... we should put the same amount of effort into improving the quality of espresso one might randomly find in a randomly selected independent cafe?

How exactly could this be accomplished?

[Nick]

I love the arrogance reflected in your o.p. Ken. I don't mean that facetiously. These online pseudo-communities of ours feed off of said arrogance, my own included. Speaking of which:

Do you think that you have indeed gathered enough evidence out there to confidently report that barista competitions haven't made a difference in quality of coffee served out there at all? Do you believe that you've travelled more than I have? I can tell you with full-confidence that I can name at least 25 coffeebars off the top of my head (and more with some time) that would point to barista competitions as being a major influencer in their improved quality in-shop.

I'm sorry that we aren't accomplishing our stated purposes quickly enough for your Ken-Foxian timetable. The fact is, love takes time. True and significant change takes time. Barista competitions are merely one part of a diverse and multi-faceted coffee-cultural shift, and nobody is claiming that competitions are the end-all that you would have us be.

The good news is, you don't have to give a sh*t. Nobody is asking for your approval. The barista competitions, in their current iteration, are indeed about the professional community. You, as a consumer, are engaged in the community only for your own whims, so it is entirely appropriate that you should pick and choose what ways you "consume." However, do realize that you choose to besmirch the efforts and endeavors of the very people, baristas, companies and organizations who you are apparently looking to for things to suit your fancy. You chose to post this thread for a certain reason, and it is certainly within your rights to do so. But I can fathom no such reason beyond those that tend toward the masturbatory.

I've appreciated immensely the contributions of enthusiast consumers, notably Mark Prince, Dan Kehn, Andy Schecter, Greg Scace, Jim Schulman, Abe Carmelli, and others who have chosen to engage the professional community as a resource and asset. Please note that I am not lumping all enthusiast-consumers together.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Well said Nick! And for the record I'm another home enthusiast who applauds the efforts of barista like you.

And greatly appreciated former USBC Champion Phuong Tran opening up her shop for a private visit of home enthusiasts Labor Day. Personally I gained a lot from her Signature drink milk infusion ideas, things I can and have applied entertaining at home.

[Ken Fox]

I love the arrogance reflected in your o.p. Ken. I don't mean that facetiously. These online pseudo-communities of ours feed off of said arrogance, my own included. Speaking of which:

Do you think that you have indeed gathered enough evidence out there to confidently report that barista competitions haven't made a difference in quality of coffee served out there at all? Do you believe that you've travelled more than I have? I can tell you with full-confidence that I can name at least 25 coffeebars off the top of my head (and more with some time) that would point to barista competitions as being a major influencer in their improved quality in-shop.

I'm sorry that we aren't accomplishing our stated purposes quickly enough for your Ken-Foxian timetable. The fact is, love takes time. True and significant change takes time. Barista competitions are merely one part of a diverse and multi-faceted coffee-cultural shift, and nobody is claiming that competitions are the end-all that you would have us be.

The good news is, you don't have to give a sh*t. Nobody is asking for your approval. The barista competitions, in their current iteration, are indeed about the professional community. You, as a consumer, are engaged in the community only for your own whims, so it is entirely appropriate that you should pick and choose what ways you "consume." However, do realize that you choose to besmirch the efforts and endeavors of the very people, baristas, companies and organizations who you are apparently looking to for things to suit your fancy. You chose to post this thread for a certain reason, and it is certainly within your rights to do so. But I can fathom no such reason beyond those that tend toward the masturbatory.

I've appreciated immensely the contributions of enthusiast consumers, notably Mark Prince, Dan Kehn, Andy Schecter, Greg Scace, Jim Schulman, Abe Carmelli, and others who have chosen to engage the professional community as a resource and asset. Please note that I am not lumping all enthusiast-consumers together.

25 decent cafes don't amount to squat. There is one decent cafe within 160 miles of me, one that Bogie-san (and no, you are not long in this enough yourself to remember HIM, are you) told me about. It is in Boise and was good years ago and remains so. There has been zero impact of the Barista competitions on that place. They knew how to make espresso then, and they know it now.

Sure, if you go to a handful of cities with decent cafes, you can get good espresso. And maybe a handful of them have gained something from these competitions. We are not talking brain surgery here, we are talking about attention to detail with espresso making skills that any of thousands of Italian baristas have known for decades. We have the advantage of arguably better blends over here in N. America, and we SHOULD, with those same skills, make even better drinks, but we don't.

The problem is not that people don't make good enough signature drinks or can't perform on some stage to suit the "judges." The problem is basic training in espressomaking skills, like grinding, distribution, using fresh coffee, packing, tamping, a modicum of attention to temperature control, stuff like that.

Your beloved competitions, in which you presumably compete for the benefits they would offer you in advertising your own business, are completely transparent and self-serving.

As to your definition of the list of people who's posts you have found useful, intentionally leaving out my name (obviously) I can say that you have yet to post anything that I have found useful, either.

Respectfully,

ken

[another_jim]

OK, then why should we, the online coffee community, devote anything like the verbiage we have to this topic of barista competitions? Are these people doing stuff on the stage that is in anyway unique AND useful, and hence transferable? Or are we just being groupies, with the satisfaction being to hang out at the BG booth at an upcoming SCAA convention?

You never had the espresso at the SCAA conventions before there was a BGA booth? Drop around $750, go to the biggest coffee convention on earth, and nothing but wretched shots. Drop another $500, attend the espresso training workshops, and get taught how to produce 15 second gushers with mounds of stiff foam.

The BGA and barista competitions have had one simple effect on my everyday shot making. Four years ago, the coffee world, as I knew it, was a simple place. If you wanted the best espresso on the planet (BEP), you came to my place, or the homes of a few other amateurs. All of a sudden, there's there's these barista competitions and the BGA. At first I'm thinking, "yeah whatever, the bush leagues' world series." Then I taste some of these guys' shots, and I'm scrambling to keep up.

And what was the BEP four years ago? The on-line community had reached a plateau and wasn't going anywhere: Rockies and Silvias, home roast of DIY blends from SM, usually with way too much Monsooned Malabar, and the only cafe anyone talked about was Vivace. Our BEP wasn't bad; but even the Haikus About Cherry-Blossoms Society could boast of more variety.

That complacency was shared by the SCAA espresso people, hence the abysmal shots and training courses.

I'm not one to talk about causes. But things started to change very rapidly after Doug Zell and then other roasters and cafes reached out to the on-line community, and we responded. The pros were shocked, and complained very loudly, at the contempt in which they were held by us. Those of us who were in on it were equally shocked at how varied the specialty coffee world was, and what pains the top people were taking. The upshot is that the top quality rung of the SCAA has found that they could be successful by emphasizing and competing on quality. The on-line community isn't their only market by a long way, and they were doing quality long before they met us, but we are the vocal part providing most of the customer feedback. This odd sum is more than its parts. The lines of influence are hard to trace; but I'm convinced they exist. My coffee practice, and even more my standards, have improved dramatically since all this hit; and so have the standards at the top roasters and cafes.

The last four years have seen a "race for the top" when it comes to coffee quality. The BGA and barista competition are a part of this new landscape.

[PeterG]

While I hesitate to post to this thread for some reason....

Ken, to rephrase Nick's point, you can't possibly believe that Bogie-san's cafe being good independent of Barista Competitions is any evidence of anything. It is one cafe, in isolation. That is like saying that New York City is insignificant because some guy from Tulsa has never been there.

In the previous breath, you describe 25 cafes as being "squat". It's not squat, man, it's 25 cafes.

Of course, though, it is far more significant than that. As a vendor of quality coffee and an advocate of good technique, I know that the competitions are significant. We Americans are competitors by nature, and the existence of a contest is enough to spur some baristas towards self-improvement. Over the course of the year, we have been able to train saying "Lem Butler won the SERBC using this technique"; it carries more weight when training baristas.

And you're forgetting about the baristas that choose to watch rather than participate. You can bet that they are incorporating techniques and standards that they learn by watching into their daily routine.

And you're forgetting that for the 3 days of the competition, I get to stand up there and, between competitors, preach the "gospel" of quality coffee to the friends, relatives, and curious observers that came to see the show.

And you're forgetting that the existence of these competitions have led to increased penetration of quality espresso equipment in the marketplace, and has perhaps driven some quality improvement, too. (I expect some argument on this point, after all you're Ken Fox)

And you're forgetting that the existence of these competitions has driven standards development in espresso.

And you're forgetting that the drive to compete has significantly changed the understanding of how green coffee farming and selection impact espresso. (we had 2 coffee farmers at the SERBC, paying close attention)

Of course, the most significant thing to me is that the competitions made it so that people treat a barista like Lem Butler like the skilled culinary professional he is, rather than a PBTC. You can bet that the shots are better at his shop then before the competitions. In fact, when I moved here, there was only one shop where you could get a great shot. Now there are perhaps 5. THAT IS A FIVEFOLD INCREASE!! Is it because of the barista comps? Is it because of better availabilty of training? Is it because passionate coffee people decided to open shops in this region? Is it because of a general rising tide of coffee awareness? Is it perhaps all of these things, acting in synergy??? I get that you travel, but you are just plain wrong that there are not more, better shops now then there were 5 years ago. And, although it is probably impossible to prove without a sophisticated economic analysis, it seems to me that the comps have played a part in this change for the better.

You say that a barista will never amount to anything, career-wise. Speaking as someone who began as a barista, and still considers himself a barista, I consider myself one of the many who prove you wrong. Furthermore, I would challenge you to look some of these baristas in the eye when they are listening to the applause before you claim that the comps don't improve the standing of the professional barista.

You don't care about the comps, that's fine. I don't care that you don't care. But we're having a great time being immersed in this cool corner of coffee culture, and someday I hope you'll join us.

Peter G

[e61brewski]

you probably know this already, but there's a raging debate tangential to this discussion here:
http://ben.szobody.com/blog/index...re=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

it seems clear that barista competitions COULD be a devastatingly effective way to elevate the craft AND spread the gospel to the masses. clearly, they fall short in both regards. if you don't feel like reading all jillion hundred posts in the above thread, read this one. utterly brilliant, and a perfect example of how barista comps could be so much more effective. but they're not:
http://ben.szobody.com/blog/index...=1&tb=1&pb=1#c1011

[terryz]

Sorry Ken, but I travel a fair bit as well. Maybe not to the far reaches of the world such as yourself, but a fair amount regardless. yes, barista competitions have made a difference, and they will continue to. France has crappy coffee no matter what, so you can't use that as an example

Ken, If you started this thread to create interesting dialog, I think you succeeded. I'm not good at debate, but I do think that I need to comment on this in particular. I have dedicated my career to the advancement of espresso coffee, and I feel strongly that as the years go by, we will see competitions as part of that advancement.

What I can tell you is that allot of this reminds me of comments by the professionals about the AC community just a few years back. You know what I'm talking about. Yet out of AC came Andy with PID control, and Greg Scace with real temperature measurement devices. As a whole I feel that the espresso community has united to create advancement, and to question any focus on this work is really not in the best interest of any of us.

Again, just my opinion, and I prolly wont follow up any rebuttal, but at least I'm letting you know. I'm busy working on some Barista Jam stuff, as well as training a Barista for the NWRBC

[OlywaDave]

you probably know this already, but there's a raging debate tangential to this discussion here:
http://ben.szobody.com/blog/index...re=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://ben.szobody.com/blog/index...=1&tb=1&pb=1#c1011

I too have held back on posting a response to this.

First of all. Ben... That is a really great thread and debate and pretty much on topic with this. However I could be wrong but when browsing that thread and the massive number of responses it seems to have a lot more respect in tone for the competitors and competitions than this one here started up with.

Ken... I have to say even in Seattle I think there is a noticeable and measurable difference. The reason I say "even Seattle", some might expect the most influence to be felt there from competitions and some might expect they were already there... which minus a few exceptions they weren't.

Remember back at SCAA Seattle when you, Jim, Dan and I did that small cafe tour? I thought it was fairly easy back then to pick 3 or 4 cafes that you MUST go visit. Now there are 3-4 times (if not more) as many quality cafes to choose from that are as good if not better than the ones we hit. I can make a list if you want, but some of the Batdorf folks and I hit up about 8 places last Spring and could have kept going had time permitted.

I attribute that improvement in such a short time directly to the barista competitions, competitors and even barista/shop owner spectators who might have attended and took home a thing or two because of it. Don't get upset because it hasn't affected your area, I suggest you do a better job evangelizing Idaho. Or go to Spokane...

As for locating your local "indy" shops across the country that need improvement... Good luck! I suspect there is enough information and resources available out there now that if those owners really cared enough they would do something about it.

The above is just an opinion from a guy who works at a company that strives daily to help folks (at home or in a shop) improve their espresso.

[OlywaDave]

And where is Competition Judge Dan Kehn on this topic????

[miKe mcKoffee]

And where is Competition Judge Dan Kehn on this topic????

Off somewhere else giving the topic the attention he thought it deserved?

Maybe we should start a movement to ban barista competitions, and while we're at it to ban the Olympics, the SuperBowl, the World Series and any and all other events or competitions where someone puts themselves on the line pitting their skills againsts others with a winner declared. They are all pointless, people should only strive for mundane.

[OlywaDave]

Hey don't leave out the Stanley Cup... Let's ban that too.

[e61brewski]

Ben... That is a really great thread and debate and pretty much on topic with this. However I could be wrong but when browsing that thread and the massive number of responses it seems to have a lot more respect in tone for the competitors and competitions than this one here started up with.

mos def true. i got no use for the flames shooting from this thread. i DO think this is incredibly useful to debate, because while barista comps do fall short in many ways, i believe they have the POTENTIAL to do amazing things to spread word about high-quality spro. i'm not talking about just the sermon peter gets to preach to the smattering of people who show up ... or the scattered newspaper stories when someone wins.

i'm talking about culturally trendsetting possibilities -- and that glimmer of potential should incite ANYone associated with coffee, amateurs included, to push for morebetterfaster ... without rancor. which is why i am ardently trying to maintain the civility quotient on my blog.

[HB]

And where is Competition Judge Dan Kehn on this topic????

Since you asked, I don't agree with Ken's original assertion:

I travel more than most who will read this and I have seen no evidence, either from what I have experienced or from what I have read, that the likelihood of getting a decent espresso beverage from a randomly selected cafe is noticeably better than before these competitions began.

OK, it's true that there's not a lot of hope if one selects a cafe at random. That isn't to say that noteworthy progress has not been made. The espresso scene has improved in the Triangle, and mostly notably among those cafes that have engaged the online community and are active participants in competition. Did the competitions produce this change? It is hard to say whether quality-conscious owners / baristas sought out competitions or competitions bolstered interest in pursuing quality. But it's clear that a yearly get-together of 20+ competitors and 100+ of their supporters has more people thinking about the topic of exceptional espresso.

As Jim pointed out, improvements at the SCAA convention are unquestionable. I've attended three times. The first time in Atlanta was a huge disappointment. Clueless equipment manufacturers serving espresso from tired boat beans. ESI and Intelligentsia were the only highlights of the showroom floor. The next year in Seattle was a turning point, with most credit going to the BGA booth and the rotating crew / blends. Then Charlotte brought the "power alley" of espresso with the likes of the BGA, Intelligentsia, Counter Culture, and Gimme Coffee within 50 feet of each other. It was a stroke of luck that brought these companies to the "less desireable" showroom area off to the side, which coincidentally was directly across from the barista competition.

In my mind, it's not a question of if the competitions have helped raise the level of discourse and the standards of performance, it's only how much.

[Ken Fox]

I don't have time right now to closely read all the comments here but will try to do so later today. I have only one point that I want to make in this post and I think it is very important.

That point is that you should be able to challenge an idea, A THING, without receiving what amounts to personal attacks. You may or may not agree with the points I've tried to make, that is fine. You may even take umbrage because the thing that I have criticized is something you love; so be it.

But when the response becomes a diatribe that takes comments about a thing and turns them into responses directed at a person, you have gone beyond the bounds of reasoned discourse. I took Nick's comments as being entirely in that vein, which engendered the response I gave to him. It is not the first time he has responded to a post of mine in that fashion, that did not reference him in any way, in fact did not attack individual people but rather an idea or a thing. And no, Nick, this time I'm not interested in PMing the posts away. And once again, the inference you make and have made before about all these great pros who I owe my undershorts to, so I best behave, honestly that is just so much crap, Nick. My posts have sold a helluva lot of coffee and machines for a lot of merchants and roasters, and they have told me so, even though that was not my intention when I made them. We all give and we all get as a result of this online community, it is not a one way street from people like you to people like me.

Peter G also made a personal reference to me, and I honestly don't appreciate that and choose not to respond to his post for that reason, even though I think he probably did not mean it that way.

I don't care to be loved in this or other coffee forums; I don't come here for that, and I recommend the purchase of a dog to anyone who does. If we can't discuss ideas removed from specific individuals, then the discourse here is no better than one finds on such places as alt.coffee, and that would be a shame.

Fortunately, the great majority of the posts I've read in this thread have stayed as discussions of ideas, not invective directed at individuals (i.e. me), and I think that is a good thing.

Pax.

ken

[Nick]

I travel more than most who will read this and I have seen no evidence, either from what I have experienced or from what I have read, that the likelihood of getting a decent espresso beverage from a randomly selected cafe is noticeably better than before these competitions began.

As to your definition of the list of people who's posts you have found useful, intentionally leaving out my name (obviously) I can say that you have yet to post anything that I have found useful, either.

So in your first post, you claim that you have done your due diligence but have "seen no evidence" where others apparently have... then you whine to me that I apparently haven't done MY due diligence... sufficiently to see that you are a "useful" citizen of the bleeding-edge enthusiast community. Do you see how these things relate, Mr. Ken?

I don't know you Ken Fox. I don't know you at all. The people I listed, I've met. Maybe I've met you, but definitely nothing beyond a hello and a handshake. Those other folks, I've engaged in meaningful discourse, in addition to having read their words out there. I never said "Ken Fox; Who Gives a Sh1t about that guy." I simply didn't list you, and yet you felt compelled to point that out, obviously irked by the omission (which was not intentional). Again, if you don't see the hypocrisy... I dunno what to say.

For you to post a thread titled "Barista Competitions; Who Gives a Sh**" and then cry when you are (admittedly) attacked is the definition of "troll." It was clear, by your VERY FIRST PHRASE in this thread that your intention was to be provocative. You reap what you sow. Quick licking your paw. I, for one, feel no sympathy for you, and I doubt that anyone else does either.