Asbestos Fix for Olympia Cremina 67?

[Gregory Q]

Greetings all...

I finally got my eBay 12 year old '67 delivered, only to discover that it is mutton dressed up like, well, mutton. That pesky 1974 serial number was a hint that asbestos lurked beneath that pretty Jerry Ford era brown cover.

My internals seem to be in pretty good shape-the asbestos is intact and shows no cracks or flaking, but haunts me just the same.

While I negotiate with the seller over misrepresentation I am wondering about encapsulating the asbestos in epoxy in a bid to stabilise it and bind the fibres. Can anyone here advise either way on this as a fix to this, or any other ideas. The epoxy I use is West System, and it would probably last
30 or more years.

My other option is to do the dip 'n' strip and dispose of the waste at the licensed facility next door*

*kidding about the next door part.

Thanks

Greg

[bobcraige]

WARNING: What I am about to say is my personal opinion, but if you are concerned, make sure you get competent professional advice-I take no responsibility for its correctness.

Why not just leave it alone? If, as you say, it is in good shape and not crumbling, it will be well contained inside the housing and do no harm. Epoxies in general are not good with heat. In fact, often heat is used to help in their removal. Coating the asbestos with epoxy could well cause a huge problem that has to be dealt with where there was none to begin with.

[RCMann]

the asbestos is intact and shows no cracks or flaking, but haunts me just the same.

My other option is to do the dip 'n' strip and dispose of the waste at the licensed facility next door*

If the asbestos bothers you, dip it, strip it, throw the dregs in the trash, and use the machine.

BTW, how did the seller misrepresent the machine?

Remember, asbestos has been used for years in a variety of applications and has never really been a widespread problem until old buildings were razed. It's just a mineral, not a toxic biohazard; physical, not chemical, properties of asbestos are what can affect your lungs. So simply don't breathe asbestos particles and you'll be fine. Even if you were to inhale some over the short term it still isn't that big a deal, it's chronic exposure that's hazardous.

You ought to be more concerned about incidental heavy metal contamination in the marine brass boiler leaching into your favorite espresso blend.

Enjoy! Rod

[Gregory Q]

Hi Gents, thanks for the replies.

I was thinking epoxy because it seems to do reasonably well at these kinds of temps. But on second thought, a bigger mess is pretty likely if it doesn't work, and there's not enough reason to think that it would.

I know that asbestos is actually a pretty inert mineral with no other vexing properties except fibers lodging in tissues. To listen to the news reports though, you'd think that there were gamma rays or bird flu viral fragments flying off. I think the gamma ray thing got me thinking about Chernobyl, and cement casings, hence the epoxy idea.


I am concerned about the components of the brass/bronze alloys poisoning me over time, just like my lead worry beads. It's enough to make a boy wonder about his forty years of espresso and Gauloises.

The misrepresentation was that the machine was allegedly bought new 12 years ago, but it is a 1974.

(I didn't know enough about them last week to recognise that the switch/light assembly was the older style.)

She also said that her electrician had checked the machine over, yet it was full of cobwebs and petrified spiders, and the original wiring, brittle in places.

Beyond all of the above, I am fairly sanguine about the whole deal-I expected issues, and frankly it is an externally clean machine that will be beautiful when finished. The chrome will polish to mirror-like without re-plating, and there is no rust. I may make some nice Cocobolo handles to compliment the red powder coating, and the rest will (God, I hope) come from Switzerland in a few weeks.

Here's another question: When the lever is raised all the way, water pours from the group head. Does this sound like dry seals?

The boiler gets (too) hot quickly, and the steam fairly roars from the wand. There is evidence of much venting at the safety relief valve, so I obviously will need to get some diagnostic equipment before I finish the resto.

Thanks again.

Greg

[bobcraige]

The fact that it was bought new tweleve years ago is not impossible, at least here in the States. It would not surprise me if Zabar's was cleaning out back closets of demos etc and perhaps it was indeed sold as new. I visited there around that time and they seemed to be clearing out whatever Olympia they could find.

As far as the water coming out, yes the piston rod seal is gone. I would certainly expect to replace all the group seals, and you might likely do the entire machine at this point. You probably need to check inside the boiler even if it is not leaking. If the machine has sucked milk back into the boiler, you will need to clean that out plus any scale. I would also expect the sight glass seals to be brittle and certainly the safety valve seal. Read my thread about setup of the machine and definitely read Steve's thread about rebuilding. I makes no sense in a machine this old to do only part of it, while you are at it, get it all fresh and new. If you clean out the boiler and replace all the seals the machine should go a very long time before it needs any attention again. Make sure to lubricate the group-the factory includes some lubricant in the gasket set for this.

[bill]

Just to reinforce what Bob said, I bought an espresso machine last month as new, and indeed it was and had never been used. When I removed the housing I found an inspection sticker dated 1998. I guess sometimes equipment can be in inventory for a long time before being sold at retail.

[Gregory Q]

Hi Guys...

The points that you make are good ones all. The seller was acting at some remove for her mother-in-law, and the story is that it was purchased new in 1994. While a twenty year inventory boggles the mind, I have purchased new stock that old before when restoring cars, planes etc. It may even have been a reconditioned unit at time of sale.

I was keen to do the full body-off restoration. It was your threads on this site that made me buy it in the first place, so to do less would be backsliding.

I am waiting for the final reply to an order change with Olympia Express, then my parts can start their journey, and I can get going with the rebuild in one push. My original, fluted handles are cracked and age fatigued, and I have giant hands, so the custom carved wood solution is my option on that score.

I am still investigating some serious fit issues with the cover, and still wrestling with the asbestos. After a caffeine fuelled sleep, I am leaning towards stripping it. I'd know it was there, and I'd know that in a perfect world that it wouldn't be, so obsessive behaviour is going to win.

Thanks again for the replies, I shall post photos if I can find anything to add to what has already been done here.

Oh-thanks too for the previous threads, and the informative and seductive photography. And to think that I had almost surrendered my quest for a great home espresso!

Greg

[srobinson]

Best of luck...please post some pics when you take this on. Happy to help you with resources.

[Gregory Q]

Just a quick update:

I popped the boiler into a half bucket of warm water and detergent, and the asbestos peeled off easily and quickly. The whole job was done, including underwater wire brushing, in half an hour. I filter out the asbestos using a felt cloth, then paper, and am going to take it (all 1/4 lb of it) to the licenced dump on Monday. This is a lip-service trip, but better than the fines levied for not doing it right.

Here in Australia this stuff is regarded as plutonium's evil twin. Just for kicks I called a licenced asbestos remover-he wanted $550.00 to do the job, which is either a go-away fee or a sobering indictment on my own career choices.

I employed Steve Robinson's trick of a brass brush on a bit extender to scour the internals of the boiler-there were white globs and deposits throughout, but they were no match for the bigdrill.

Other small passages were cleaned with the aid of a brass brush from a gun cleaning kit. This kit gets regular use in my garage for everything from Porsche engine rebuilds to cleaning router collets and now Olympia internal passages.

[RCMann]

Good on ya...that wasn't so bad, was it? Looks like that nasty asbestos didn't do any permanent damage, but of course only time will tell. Perhaps in a few years you'll be washing your hands and asbestos slivers will be migrating out of your skin. Or into your brain!!! Of course, you won't know that until...

You did use rubber gloves, didn't you?

I didn't when I de-asbestosed mine, and have nightmares.

Anyway, seems like you're the adventurous and mechanically minded sort who needs to take the next step of installing a permanent pressure gauge while you've got the machine stripped down. Photos below. That was before I had stripped the asbestos.

BTW, great idea about using a bore brush to clean internal passages, at least the ones you can reach with it!

Rod

[Gregory Q]

Hey Rod...

It was your idea in the first place, so thanks for that. I couldn't find my old space suit, so I just wore latex gloves (for that extra sensitivity).

When I was a younger dude I was pressed into helping on many of my father's industrial plant renovations, and asbestos boiler cladding was everywhere. That's probably why he only lived to 91. I believe this stuff is a hazard, but not to everyone, and not if you employ common sense.

The bore-brush idea was from some long-forgotten engine rebuilders book. I almost drilled out the end plugs on the Cremina's manifold, but the asbestos fuelled voices told me not to.

I have been re-calibrating my safety relief valve tonight, using 22 psi from my compressor as a value, and it works reliably now, so another job ticked off the list.

Your pressure indicator has been singing it's siren song to me, RC. I was wondering about fabricating a custom boiler cap with a flush mounted indicator, or panel mounting a dial indicator lower on the machine, with a flex hose running from it to the manifold. On the other hand, I really don't want to change the period look of the thing too much.

I'm going with a fire-engine red powder coat job, wondering about the frame color.

Greg

[RCMann]

Greg-

The gauge actually looks much more natural when the faceplate is mounted on the machine, the stainless gauge body matches the stainless faceplate of the machine.

The key is to get a gauge that looks good standing alone, as opposed to one meant to be face mounted.

I thought about face mounting a gauge, but couldn't find enough room on the machine to do it.

The gauge I got is a stainless steel Ashcroft liquid filled with a glass face.

I'm supposed to get the rest of my woodwork from Les this week, and I'll post a couple of pics then.

I went with a gunmetal metallic color for both frame and body, it looks kinda like the color on the Cremina 2002. I used auto paint, and topcoated it with SEM Chipguard, which is designed for lower panels on cars to prevent stone chips. It adds toughness as well as a subtle texture that looks good, IMO.

Olympia makes a boiler cap with a built-in pressure gauge, the price quoted me by Oly in Suisse was $100 USD.

Looking forward to seeing what you do next...Rod

[Gregory Q]

Hi Rod...

Do you know if the factory cap has a gauge flush mounted, or does it stick up vertically?

And I do like your gauge, BTW. Where did you buy it?

Greg...

Oh yeah...I was in my workshop earlier, looking at an extra air regulator and air cylinder that I have. How's this: pneumatic tamper, with adjustable
tamp pressure, custom uhmw plastic foot on a swivel. I wonder if I can convince myself to try and hide an air line going to the kitchen?

[RCMann]

Hi Rod...

Do you know if the factory cap has a gauge flush mounted, or does it stick up vertically?

And I do like your gauge, BTW. Where did you buy it?

Greg...

Oh yeah...I was in my workshop earlier, looking at an extra air regulator and air cylinder that I have. How's this: pneumatic tamper, with adjustable
tamp pressure, custom uhmw plastic foot on a swivel. I wonder if I can convince myself to try and hide an air line going to the kitchen?

The factory cap gauge is flush mounted, oly_puller sent me some photos of his that I've since deleted.

I got my Ashcroft gauge from a distributor in North Carolina, but they're distributed worldwide (I'm pretty sure) so you should be able to get something similar in Oz.

The gauge was built in Brazil, and they also have a 0-2 bar which I would have preferred but there was a 18 week wait or something ridiculous so I got a 0-30 psi instead (same amount of pressure as 0-2 bar).

If you go that route, get a 1/8" NPT or similar, 1/4" NPT would be too big. Not sure what the threading standard is over there.

Pneumatic tamper is too much for a retro geek like me...I use a Thor wood tamper, ride a fixed gear bike, and don't have a TV!

Rod

[Gregory Q]

Thanks for the tip on the gauge, Rod. I'm going to seriously consider it, and look for one over here.

When it comes to plumbing/pneumatics we use NPT, same as you guys, except certain Euro components will require an NPT/metric adapter.

I'm with you on the retro...I was kidding about the air tamper (but only a little). It's a product of growing up in the era of the military-industrial complex, and over-engineered solutions for trivial problems.

Greg