Are you influenced by the poster's espresso setup?

[kahvedelisi]

I admit there was an ogling period in my coffee journey when I first found online coffee forums and saw which machines people use at their home. You know the usual story, I wanted a silvia first, then an oscar, then got bolder and jumped on a cimbali junior and dreamt of an elektra A3, then I found myself saying why not a 2 group machine and making lists. Thanks God (and thanks to my penny pincher nature) I came to my senses real quick and decided on what I actually wanted, from that point never looked back.

But in this thread, I'm not asking "that kind of influence".

Last 3 years in online coffee communities I read/faced many prejudiced messages which influenced by the poster's setup, questioning the poster's knowledge of coffee and/or knowledge of coffee equipment. Some of them were openly written, some imply, some posters choose teasing or mocking. Personally I tasted this prejudice first hand several times. Either replied to poster or resigned from the subject on purpose because simply there's no way out of this. If you have a steam toy, you're treated as if you're a steam toy yourself. If you have a pump machine then beware!! Any second a more experienced or well equipped user may appear at the corner singing "pump up the junk". Then there's the case you have relatively an expensive setup...............................you don't know how to use that machine! Shame on you!

My own conclusion is some people take "the poster's setup" way too seriously, are you one of them? Are you influenced positively or negatively by the poster's setup when replying his/her post?

[shadowfax]

Someone's equipment can definitely be a way to help judge their experience. It's far from perfect, to be sure, and has to be correlated with other data--like their self-description of their level of experience, and the way that they talk about espresso. Someone with a steam toy who comes to these forums seeking help deserves to get help, and needs to have more explained to them, or be pointed in the direction of such explanations. Someone with a steam toy who posts on these forums talking with pretension will, deservedly, get slam-dunked. People get irritated when someone enters a community dedicated to a hobby, and claims to have a better handle on that hobby than the other people of that community, before he/she gets to know the people. Such posters are (rightly) called trolls.

I strongly feel that the "equipment" field is there to help people help you, and if people abuse it and use it as a grounds to berate someone else, they should have their post deleted and receive a warning. Continued rudeness should be met with a ban. I am sure that the things you describe happen, maybe even here, and it's unfortunate, but that's just a microcosm of any human community. People can be vile, and miscommunication and overreaction are commonplace--this kind of thing is exacerbated online.

Personally, I think that taking a chill pill is the best antidote to this problem, but if you think that removing the equipment field from your profile is called for, that is quite your decision. Certainly, if you don't need any help, you don't need it to be there... Of course, if you don't need help with your espresso, I am curious why you'd read these forums.

[ntwkgestapo]

Influenced? yes, but.... NOT being one of those with a GS-3 or an Synesso or (fill in the blanks on expensive equipment ), I try not to come to any conclusions as to skill level (Look @ the folk with Silvia, Pavoni Levers, etc. Some of them have WAY more experience than I or even many of the people WITH the very high-end stuff! Also, some of the folk with very high-end stuff are VERY, VERY well versed in espresso production...) Equipment available to the original poster is only a STARTING point... Try to figure out where they're coming from (and yes, some are "Trolls", most are not...)... and see if you can provide any assistance... Just 'cuz they've got a LOT more money than I do doesn't mean their more OR less capable than I (usually, MORE in this forum! ). Just 'cuz they've got "less" than I do, doesn't mean they're less capable either... You never know!

[shadowfax]

I think the poll is a little simplistic. Anyone who answers "no" either doesn't read the right side or is lying--everyone is "influenced" by a posters setup. It seems like the only useful question you can ask is whether that influence is negative, right?

[cafeIKE]

Without an equipment list, readers may be at a loss I frequently PM members about their equipment and just recently asked Abe Carmeli to update his equipment list so readers would have a reference point for his Coffee Emergency Ethiopian Misty Valley post. He'd listed brew parameters but not his hardware. Knowing the hardware gives readers a point of reference and whether they have a hope in hades of attaining the same nirvana. On the flip side, I've been queried a number of times by readers with similar equipment. The list helps in both directions.

I recently purchased a Capresso Infinity for my sister, gave it a whirl on the Vibiemme HX and was very pleasantly surprised. Scoffed at by a few here, the grinder in Marshall's Kyle Glanville with a Silvia and $80 grinder thread is none other than a Capresso Infinity. Would I recommend one as an espresso grinder? No.

If one should happen to own a tool that gets low marks in a thread requesting advice on same, evaluate the information and use it as a guide to future a purchase.

Denigrating someone's tools is an open admission of one's ignorance. [ Hope I haven't done it ] Anyone who's sampled espresso outside their own bailiwick knows full well that the correlation between equipment and cup is all on the handle side of the group.

[HB]

My own conclusion is some people take "the poster's setup" way too seriously, are you one of them? Are you influenced positively or negatively by the poster's setup when replying his/her post?

The equipment listing is optional and not visible to visitors; its purpose is to facilitate discussion since the validity of many replies depends on the equipment in front of the poster. For example, I've never used a Nuova Simonelli Oscar, so I'm limited to offering generalities based on my reading and experience with this class of espresso machine. On the other hand, if the poster's equipment list includes one of the espresso machines I've used extensively, I will offer much more prescriptive advice.

I am skeptical of a new member's claims if their equipment and commentary don't match up (e.g., "My La Marzocco GS/3 with preground coffee rocks!" or "I've just acquired a Krups XP4020 and Mazzer Robur, but don't know what tamper size I need."), so I am somewhat influenced by their equipment declaration. But the truth is that everyone starts as a newbie and the majority of us have passed the same signposts along the road to espresso nirvana (my confession opens the thread Hall of Shame: ''What I did when I was a newbie...''). The goal of this site is to help each other move past the signposts more quickly.


Early days of HB's Bench included a Krups "steam toy"

I think the poll is a little simplistic. Anyone who answers "no" either doesn't read the right side or is lying--everyone is "influenced" by a posters setup.

Good point, I've reworked the choices to allow for more gray area: Considerably|Somewhat|Not at all. Sorry, those who already voted will need to vote again.

[another_jim]

I seem to have cast the first vote, a "somewhat." My belief is that people without familiarity with a fairly wide range of professional or high level home equipment are prone to come up with some howlers when it comes to methods or taste, simply because they don't have the requisite range of experience. On the other hand, I have a suspicion that people who list all their equipment are somehow claiming authority.

These two judgements are, of course, logically incompatible. So, while I'm fairly sure I am being influenced, I have no clear idea how.

[John P]

For people to even find this site, let alone take the time to post on it at least says they...to the best of their ability...are serious about coffee.

I'm more influenced by what is said by the poster than what equipment they have listed. I've been to many a place with fancy equipment and left bitterly disappointed.

[cafeIKE]

On the other hand, I have a suspicion that people who list all their equipment are somehow claiming authority.

Uncharacteristically uncharitable for you, Jim. I can't imagine what would make someone think so. In most cases, I think it's pride of ownership.

BTW, the 'authority' indicator is atop the profile. Once it's over 2...

[another_jim]

Uncharacteristically uncharitable for you, Jim. I can't imagine what would make someone think so. In most cases, I think it's pride of ownership.

My suspicion is based on past posters who implied that only a certain level of equipment, one most forum members hadn't reached, allowed one to understand the truth of espresso. This doesn't happen much now. I also completely forgot the "fanboys," since there's also so few of them now. For them, the cure to all problems was buying whatever they owned.

One of the salutary features of HB is the many reviews of high end equipment. These show that while there are differences among grinders and machines, they are fairly subtle, and in most cases on the consistency side, rather than the quality one. While these reviews have encouraged people to buy expensive equipment, they've discouraged them from claiming that you won't have a clue what real espresso is like until you own something really expensive.

On the other hand, I'm a little sad that I can no longer believe that my next purchase will open up whole new realms of taste experience.

[John P]

There's a point where changes in espresso based on equipment are incremental, rather than logarithmic. While great equipment often shows profound dedication, great posts show an understanding of that equipment. Without the understanding, fancy equipment is merely a hunk of steel and plastic that is awaiting the hand of someone to coax perfection out of it.

Understanding and a skilled hand trumps all the shiny steel groupheads and PID's in the world.

BUT if you come at me with your whirly-bird grinder and your Sunbeam espresso maker, I'm not going to take your seriously. So please, if you have REALLY bad equipment, keep it to yourself.

[espressoed]

I'm not about to apologize for some of the equipment that I have to work with, which is why I specifically chose to list it despite what it might "reveal" about me in the eyes of some "members." If someone chooses to base how seriously to take my posts on what equipment I own that's their problem, not mine.

A truly good Internet-based forum teaches one just as much about its participants as it does its subject matter. I've learned a lot here.

[TimEggers]

I voted "Considerably" because I see the lists as a tool to put posts into context for me. I guess for me it sheds some light on what the poster is working with to form what ever comments they may be making. I list everything I own for espresso so others too will gather some context on the nonsense I spew.

I really don't take the lists too seriously though.

[shadowfax]

We should run an experiment: remove all users' custom setups, and give everyone Synessos and Roburs... see how it changes the community's dynamic.

[ntwkgestapo]

On the other hand, I'm a little sad that I can no longer believe that my next purchase will open up whole new realms of taste experience.

Ahh, but Jim, my LAST purchase did just that! The Gaggia Factory 106 and the Le'Lit PL53 made an almost unbelievable difference in my coffee experience! I suspect should I purchase a decent HX machine I'll see some significant DIFFERENCES from my lever (and, at least at first, many of them will be "less than optimal" ).


And, Dan, should you WANT a Krups "steam toy" I've still got one in the attic!

[Elbasso]

When someone writes a (in my opinion) really good post, I do look to the right. Not at the equipment but at the number of posts written by that author. Just to see if someone is an established author or a new asset. IN both cases it's just nice to see that there's a lot of quality advice at HB.

[cannonfodder]

Not at all. In fact, I rarely even look at it. Those lists tend to get forgotten about and become antiquated. I think I still have an Isomac listed on my CG account, which I have not used in months. Just because someone drives a compact car does not mean they don't know how to race.

[CoffeeOwl]

With regard to coffee preparation - not at all.
With regard to coffee machines - somewhat.
grinders - not at all. levers - somewhat, coffees - somewhat and roasting - somewhat.
I think the reasoning behind it is easy to guess so I won't type it all in, as I would have to repeat what others said.
And of course those seeking help on equipment purchase should temporarily be considerabily influenced by it.

Anyway, you fellows rock whatever are the toys of your choice

[Psyd]

I'm living proof that any idiot can get machinery far beyond his pay grade. There is absolutely no reason that I should have a completely commercial, four-man-lift, plumbed in and out, four thousand Watt, two-hundred-and-twenty Volt burnin' two group espresso machine in my kitchen, taking up a two digit percentage of the available cubic real estate, along with a pair of matched Majors, except that the deals were too good to pass up.
I tend to look at their set up and kit to see what their technique refers to, and nothing more. If they talk about some dosing or water dance or whatever, I look to see how that may compare to any of the machines that I have, and how it will translate. Other than that, all it takes is money to get good toys. It takes a bit of nouse to get good espresso, and that can be had off'n a Silvia and a Rocky, every single day.

[zin1953]

Well, it is -- as others have quite rightly pointed out -- impossible not to be influenced at all, so I voted "Somewhat."

A list of machines and grinders can indeed be impressive, but in the same way that not everyone who owns a cellar full of super-expensive wines is "wine knowledgable," and not everyone who owns a Ferrari is an expert driver, not everyone who owns "impressive" equipment is an expert. I find a person's POSTS to be of far more influence to me than their equipment.

Or, as Maria Muldaur used to sing, "It ain't the meat, it's the motion . . . "