Any help diagnosing my faulty La Pavoni?

[Gatewood]

I was told by the importer (European Gift, etc.) that I need a new cap. There's an O-ring, which looks fine. I can't see any damage at all there. There's a hole above the O-ring in the bottom of the threads. I can't see any use for that. And the pressure valve, which seems to be that thing in the middle of the cap's inside, seems to go up and down when I press it. But before the machine reaches full temp, it's spewing steam and hot water all over the kitchen. Is it the pressure valve? Kind of sounds like it, doesn't it? Any quick fix I can try while I'm waiting for a new cap? (Which I'm afraid may take forever.) I have only had this thing since day before yesterday, and it blasted us with hot water (nobody burned, thank goodness) the first time I turned it on. Never got to try it, and am so impatient!

[Dr Jim]

I was told by the importer (European Gift, etc.) that I need a new cap. There's an O-ring, which looks fine. I can't see any damage at all there. There's a hole above the O-ring in the bottom of the threads. I can't see any use for that. And the pressure valve, which seems to be that thing in the middle of the cap's inside, seems to go up and down when I press it.

I'm puzzled, unless there's been a <very> recent production change, all of the Europiccola and Pro models that I've seen have their steam pressure relief valves under an acorn nut on the right side of the boiler, and discharge through a smallish tube running off down the side. In no case, am I aware of any venting or pressure relief being done within the boiler cap it self.

Hmmm - maybe you do mean what's under the acorn nut on the side. If you drain the machine, and then carefully remove the acorn nut, then you should find a spring, a polished steel ball, and a rubber 'O-ring' that the nut seats against. Tilting the machine sideways should cause the spring and ball to fall out, which exposes the metal seat so you can easily clean it with a cotton swab and some coffee pot cleaner.

Re-assembly is simple - make sure the ball and spring are clean and free of grease, drop in the ball, then the spring, then screw on the acorn nut, making very sure that it's going on correctly and not cross-threading - which can be a little tricky when you're working against spring pressure - then tighten down the acorn nut pretty firmly with a wrench.

Oh, I've been assuming that you've got a fairly modern 'Millenium' or single-switch machine with a pressurestat, and that the pressurestat is working correctly. If you've got an older two-switch or original one-switch machine, then it is supposed to heat until the pressure relief valve 'chatters' or begins to open - at which point, you get to reduce the heat by turning off the steam switch.

OTOH - If you've a late model machine, it's entirely possible that the pressurestat has stuck and needs to be repaired or adjusted, and that the pressure relief valve is merely doing its job - here's a link to a site with some instructions on how to adjust the pressurestat:

http://www.gurus.net/pavoni/

But it is for machines which are a generation behind the current production, which I gather have safety screws and anti-tamper protection on the pressurestat - in which case you may need the services of a competent technician.

Cheers

Jim

[Gatewood]

There's no nut on the right side of my boiler; no acorn nut, nothing. Nothing underneath, either, except the rubber feet things. It's a Millenium edition, just purchased from Aabree Coffee People. There's a valve type thing under the cap which responds to pressure, and on the instructions, it seems to point an arrow at that spot describing the pressure relief valve. On second look, the arrow points to something which is not present on my machine, and it looks almost like the alternate steam device, but isn't. It's attached to the steam wand. My wand has nothing attached. Could it be that I'm missing an important part? There's no place it could be attached at all. And what's that pressure sensitive device in the cap?
Oh, help!

[bill]

Gatewood,
Can you post a photo?

[HB]

Can you post a photo?

PS: See posting images on HB for instructions.

[Gatewood]

Here goes nothing. I've created an album on PhotoBucket. I'm new to this, so please cut me just a bit of slack.
I have uploaded pictures of the right side of the boiler (showing no release valve that I can see), the cap showing the little hole, and a very fuzzy inside of the cap showing what I think is the release valve.
(in reverse order, apparently)

[Hogfire]

Hello Gatewood,

Sorry to hear you're having bad luck from the start. That's the same boiler cap design on my Gaggia Factory (Pavoni copy) and I believe also on the Elektra Microcasa. The cap acts as a "false pressure" release during warm-up. When pressure starts to build the air above the water escapes through the cap's valve. It closes automatically after a few seconds. It sounds like this valve is faulty on yours, and to be safe the only remedy is to wait for a replacement. I can't remember if this valve is also meant to be an over-pressure release, but I don't understand how it could also do that since pressure shuts it closed. Hope your replacement arrives quickly and functions properly.

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

Thanks, Hogfire; that's just about what I suspected. I'm glad someone can confirm it. I didn't want to think it was a simple O-ring replacement that I could have done myself. I hope I don't have to wait very long.

[Hogfire]

Hello again,

Since you will be receiving another cap, I have an idea you could try if waiting proves too much to bear. Warning: I do not know if this is exactly what is at fault with your machine, and in trying this idea you do so at your own risk.

Well, with that out of the way, how about plugging up the hole inside your cap with some food safe material, such as a piece of cork cut down to an appropriate size? What I would do is use an extension cord, make sure you and all others are far enough away from the machine so you don't get scalded. Once pressure starts to build you should be able to tell immediately if this will hold or not. If it starts to sputter from the cap, disconnect the cord from a safe distance. If it does hold, this means that the false pressure will not be alleviated, thereby preventing your machine from reaching the correct temperature. You will have to bleed the air bubble in the boiler through the steam wand for a few seconds until the output becomes pure steam instead of spitting water. Wait a minute or two, and then the machine should be ready to use.

With all that said however, I reckon I would be too nervous to try this. If the plug happens to fall out while you are using the machine the amount of pressure in the boiler could cause a dramatic eruption of super heated water and horrible injuries. Even if it does hold, you model doesn't have a pressure gauge so you wouldn't be able to tell if the pressure stat is working properly, thus preventing a build up of too much pressure in the boiler.

I feel for you though. Your machine is certainly gorgeous (is that copper or brass?) and I'd send you my cap if I could, but it's the only one I've got

Keep us posted on your progress or any other questions.

Hogfire

[HB]

If the plug happens to fall out while you are using the machine the amount of pressure in the boiler could cause a dramatic eruption of super heated water and horrible injuries. Even if it does hold, you model doesn't have a pressure gauge so you wouldn't be able to tell if the pressure stat is working properly, thus preventing a build up of too much pressure in the boiler.

And his last words before being admitted into the burn ward were... ?

[Hogfire]

yes, you're right. bad advice that could have terrible results. please do not try this, the risk is too great. I pressed submit too quickly and without thinking it through completely.

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

I'm not going to do it. Mostly, though, because I can't get to the steam wand without getting close to the pot and if we have a "thar she blows" situation, I wouldn't be very happy. I've decided to jiggle that valve thing in the cap (seems to be on a strong spring and I can push it with a small metal stick) and see if maybe it was just stuck at the beginning. If that's the case, I might even get it to work one time, but I'm still going to insist on a new cap. If it stuck once, it could stick again.

And that's brass; lovely, aint it?

[cannonfodder]

That is indeed the same boiler cap that my Factory uses. The springy plunger in the cap is the emergency pressure release valve. The rubber 'O' ring simply seals the boiler. The hole in the threads is a pressure release hole. Just in case you unscrew the cap while there is pressure in there. You get a loud, hot, PFSSSSS as you unscrew the cap. It is at that point you jump back and go Ouch, because the steam just vented up on your hand. That just kept you from blowing a hole in your head with that cap because you opened a pressurized boiler.

Either your spring is too weak or your boiler is overheating. Most of the time it is the spring. When I power up my Factory, I will open the steam wand. After a little hissing from the valve I close it and let the machine continue heating. It looks like you have ordered a new cap; hope that does the trick for you.

[Gatewood]

That is indeed the same boiler cap that my Factory uses. The springy plunger in the cap is the emergency pressure release valve. The rubber 'O' ring simply seals the boiler. The hole in the threads is a pressure release hole. Just in case you unscrew the cap while there is pressure in there. You get a loud, hot, PFSSSSS as you unscrew the cap. It is at that point you jump back and go Ouch, because the steam just vented up on your hand. That just kept you from blowing a hole in your head with that cap because you opened a pressurized boiler.

Either your spring is too weak or your boiler is overheating. Most of the time it is the spring. When I power up my Factory, I will open the steam wand. After a little hissing from the valve I close it and let the machine continue heating. It looks like you have ordered a new cap; hope that does the trick for you.

OK, but I was thinking the spring was stuck. Too weak? I can see that, but what about stuck open? I pushed it and it feels pretty tight. The boiler can't be overheating; it happens right away, before it gets anywhere near temp (I think; with no gauge of any kind, I can't be sure, but it happens quickly, within three or four minutes.). Yes, the new cap will hopefully fix it, and I just hope fervently that it's not the boiler.

[Hogfire]

When I power up my Factory, I will open the steam wand. After a little hissing from the valve I close it and let the machine continue heating.

Cannonfodder, the intended function of this cap has me confused. When you say "after a little hissing from the valve. . . " do you mean the valve in the cap, or the valve in the steam wand? Everytime my machine starts to build pressure, the boiler cap hisses for about 5-10 seconds, then suddenly shuts. I'm in the habit of releasing some steam from the wand before I begin pulling a shot (even though my Expobar had a vacuum breaker, it wasn't very reliable, which showed in an immediate drop in pressure on the gauge then kicking in the heating element), but it never causes a noticeable drop in pressure on the gauge as with the Expobar. Is it possible that this cap serves double duty, vacuum breaker and over pressure relief, or am I just misinterpreting the initial actions? I can fully imagine that this cap would act as safety release, since pushing on the center piece encounters spring resistance, much like too much pressure in the boiler would do. But how come it also allows some pressure release at warm up? Sign me perplexed but enjoying the fantastic results,

Hogfire

[Brink]

Good that Cannonfodder could put this straight, explaining the purpose(s) of the boiler cap!

There's no nut on the right side of my boiler; no acorn nut, nothing. Nothing underneath, either, except the rubber feet things. It's a Millenium edition, just purchased from Aabree Coffee People. There's a valve type thing under the cap which responds to pressure, and on the instructions, it seems to point an arrow at that spot describing the pressure relief valve. On second look, the arrow points to something which is not present on my machine, and it looks almost like the alternate steam device, but isn't. It's attached to the steam wand. My wand has nothing attached. Could it be that I'm missing an important part?

Some of the confusion in this thread, seems to be related to the fact, that Hogfire's LP must be the Romantica model, and not the standard Professional or Europiccolo. As far as I know the Romantica model comes with and without the eagle on top of the cap that hides the boiler cap. I'm the happy owner of this machine myself!

[Brink]

Some of the confusion in this thread, seems to be related to the fact, that Hogfire's LP must be the Romantica model, and not the standard Professional or Europiccolo.

It was of course Gatewood's LP I was referring to, sorry!

[Gatewood]

Mine's supposed to be the new Millenium Romantica, but there was no eagle option. I probably would have gone for that. I have measured (best I can with bathroom scale) the pressure it takes to push that spring in; it was about 5 pounds, plus or minus a bit. That seems to me to be a bit weak, but I don't know. I can't wrap my mind around pressure vs. weight as far as the machine goes. Can anybody clear that confusion up for me? If it takes 5 lbs of pressure to release this valve, is it getting up to pressure in the boiler? OK, I wasn't so hot in math in school, and it's been a long time ago.

[Brink]

Cannonfodder, the intended function of this cap has me confused. When you say "after a little hissing from the valve. . . " do you mean the valve in the cap, or the valve in the steam wand? Everytime my machine starts to build pressure, the boiler cap hisses for about 5-10 seconds, then suddenly shuts. I'm in the habit of releasing some steam from the wand before I begin pulling a shot (even though my Expobar had a vacuum breaker, it wasn't very reliable, which showed in an immediate drop in pressure on the gauge then kicking in the heating element), but it never causes a noticeable drop in pressure on the gauge as with the Expobar. Is it possible that this cap serves double duty, vacuum breaker and over pressure relief, or am I just misinterpreting the initial actions? I can fully imagine that this cap would act as safety release, since pushing on the center piece encounters spring resistance, much like too much pressure in the boiler would do. But how come it also allows some pressure release at warm up? Sign me perplexed but enjoying the fantastic results,

Hogfire

From my experience with my own LP Romantica, then I'm sure that Cannonfodder refers to the valve in the steam wand which he opens during warm up, and then closes when steams starts to build up.

Regarding the safety valve in the boiler cap, then I have never experienced that it has released any pressure/steam. I assume that this is because of the pressurestat which is regulating the pressure - typically in a deadband of approx. 0.1 bar.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, if the boiler cap keeps releasing pressure, this could be due to a defect pressurestat or a defect boilercap.

[Hogfire]

Sorry all, I'll readily admit to creating/adding to confusion by being confused myself and flip-flopping on matters of over pressure release. I remember seeing images of Cannonfodder's boiler cap in another thread, and despite looking physically the same, there was one difference from mine. Have a look:









Cannonfodder's boiler cap didn't have the white markings on top, but who can say if it makes a difference or not? Does anyone else have these markings on their cap, and what do they mean? To add to the confusion, English is not my first language, and American English is definitely not the first English I learnt. Now that I'm living in the U.S., there's a constant battle in my language centres (can't believe I spelt it "center" before) for dominance (and I'm an English Language Arts teacher at an inner-city H.S. oh the poor sodding students!), adding to the already existing cerebral fisticuffs of having parents who have always used three languages intertwined, sometimes completing one sentence with bits of all three. Well, back to the topic at hand, I certainly don't want to be a purveyor of dangerous or mis-information, just a bit 'o help if possible.

To the OP Gatewood, good luck and don't mind my waffling on and on about this, enjoy your little beauty to the hilt!

Hogfire