Any help diagnosing my faulty La Pavoni? - Page 3

[cannonfodder]

I glanced over the thread but did not see what kind of grinder you are using. The Pavoni style levers tend to take a fine grind. You are racing against time with these machines. If the machine is on for more than about 10 minutes, it starts to overheat. I find that a lighter roast (which tends to prefer a hotter machine) works best for me.

I heat the machine, grind into my basket, tamp, lift the lever to purge some water through the group (3-4 oz). Lower the lever just until the water flow stops. Then while holding the lever in place, I lock in the portafilter, raise the lever, and count to ten and start pulling. Once I get the first few drips out of the spout, I raise the lever again, count to three, and pull to the bottom of the stroke. I am using the double basket. I get about 30-33 seconds from the raise of the lever and 10 count to when I pull the cup from under the spouts. Don't wait for the last of the streams to finish, those last few dribbles are over extracted and bitter.

I have never used the single basket, I don't even know where it is. The single basket is unforgiving from what I have read. Stick to the double would be my recommendation.

When I pull back to back shots (my lever is in my office so I always have someone mooching a cappa from me) I follow the above process. Once your lever hits bottom, hold it there for a few seconds, then let go of it. The lever will probably raise up slightly from the remaining pressure. In about 20 seconds, you can push the lever down with one finger and it stays. Then I SLOWLY rotate the portafilter, I will occasionally get a very slight PSST from the PF. If you are unsure, put a damp towel over the group so it covers the PF. That way if it does sneeze on you, the towel will hold back the mess. Then I knock out the puck, wipe the basket dry, grind and go again. If you are making milk drinks, you can also pull, froth, then remove the PF and start your second shot.

The spouts on the PF unscrew. It takes some effort, they are put on using some lock-tight. You can unscrew them and either pull straight through the hole in the bottom of the PF, or purchase a single spout and screw it back on. It will probably take a vise or pliers to get the spout off. Wrap the spout in a towel so you do not mar them up.

Help?

[Gatewood]

Major help! Thanks so much! I'm using the KitchenAid Proline grinder, and the manual shows you how to adjust the burrs so that they are at maximum closeness, almost rubbing. In fact, it says to let them rub and then back off a bit. I'll try doing that tomorrow. (I'll also try to remove the spout. I think that's the best bet. Not even sure if I could order a naked pf that would fit the Pavoni, but I would only try that after I got a bit more practice.) So, I'm going to have to be brave, grab a towel, and try to remove the pf after the lever stays down. I'll definitely wait at least 20 seconds. I have a little time tomorrow to practice it, and your instructions make me feel a bit more confident. Hope to be able to say I got something drinkable soon.

Gatewood

[Hogfire]

Congratulations Gatewood!

For some reason I had a feeling your cap would eventually work out this way. When you say you are an old person, I sincerely hope you are stating that with pride! "Old people" in my life have taught me so much about what it means to be a decent person in society, and how to live a good life because they have much more experience than myself. And if the company you bought the machine from is condescending to you because you are a female, they do not deserve to be in business. Ok, enough about my social justice rant. I deal with it everyday with the high school students, I just want them to grow up to be good people.

Wow, IU's music school is one of the top rated in the nation, you must be quite good. Their foreign language departments are also highly regarded, which is why I went there. Are you famous? I'm not!:lol: Oh yes, Nick's Pub is still there! I should refrain from posting messages in the morning though. My previous message is full of holes, mistakes, and mixed-up notes about these machines. My English thinking centre in the ole' noggin' doesn't seem to function very well until I've had a few hand-pulled espressos.

So, you're giving it a go with the single basket and a Kitchen Aid Pro grinder? I get delicious results now with the double basket (heaps of trial and error), and I've recently started practising with the single basket because there are others in this forum who say they are getting even better results with it. From my efforts to date, I find the single basket requires a coarser grind than the double basket, and more practise. I still haven't found the "sweet spot" of the single basket, but I will persist because it shows great promise. If your grinder is set at it's finest grind and still giving you quick lever pull times with the single basket, I imagine it's going to be difficult to get satisfactory results with the double basket. You are using excellent beans, so that's not a variable that needs to be adjusted at this point in your efforts. Sounds like the grind (and possibly tamp) is the culprit at the moment.

The grinder manual is giving you sound advice. You have to find the "zero point" (the setting where the burrs are just starting to rub together), and then start experimenting with settings a few points coarser from there. How do you adjust the grind setting on your Kitchen Aid? Also, definitely try measuring the tamp pressure you are using, as Cannonfodder explained. Using great effort to tamp is too much force.

Don't be afraid of the portafilter sneeze. Yes, it's very nasty and a bit of a shock when it happens. It has happened to me once, and only once. If it happens to you it's a good learning experience because once it occurs, you make awful sure it never happens to you again, but the fear of it completely disappears and your coffee making ritual becomes second nature.

Yes, Yes, Yes, remove those "dadgummed" (I love that word, but I rarely hear it used) forks, or "spouts" as they're commonly referred to. But be forewarned, they put up a good fight against removal. You may need assistance. The cramped space in the spouts gets very gummed up with coffee oil residue, and is tedious to clean. Much happier without that devil tongue on my portafilter. If you want to make full sized drinks for you and your husband to enjoy together, I recommend ordering more portafilter baskets. When a guest pops round my place for a visit, I fill and tamp two baskets at the same time. One basket for each cup, and it only takes about a minute longer compared to making a drink for myself. It's so nice to share hand crafted espresso with a loved one (must be this Valentine's holiday getting me all sappy). I ordered extra baskets, and a few other goodies for my machine from this place:

http://www.espressoparts.com/c=zn...ry/03.02.lapavoni/

Have a look at the diagrams of the machine in your spare time, it helps visualise what's going on in the hidden parts like the boiler, grouphead, and under the base. It's really a very simple machine that achieves top notch results, which is why I admire it so much. If you order from them, I'd recommend speaking to someone over the phone. In my experience they have been very professional, helpful, and friendly, unlike the impression of your current seller.

Here are some parting shots of today's after dinner pulls which tasted amazing. I used Sweet Maria's Sulawesi Toraja Grade 1 beans which I roasted myself (something you might look into later if you get pulled into this hobby) last Sunday morning. My mate got this cup, I got the one after, both were heavenly. With your machine, you can get espresso shots so syrupy rich and thick, the falling stream of crema causes slowed down wave circles in the surface of the drink, as you can see in the photos.

Beginning of pull






Oops! Not a very smooth pull, albeit a bit tricky with right hand trying to snap a photo and eyes focused on camera's monitor. I jerked the lever down right as I squeezed the shutter release.


End of a single pull on the lever. Note how the stream is getting lighter. You could continue with a second full or partial pull, but I usually stop here.


Man Cannonfodder, I have to get some of those Bodum cups, they showcase the shot so well in photos. The cup in these photos holds 4.5 ounces, too large for a proper espresso.

Well, I wish you the best of luck Gatewood, a pleasure to assist a Southern Belle become operational. It took me a year to reach this point, and I'm still learning how to improve my espresso shots with this machine. Keep at it, and I'm sure there will be plenty of good souls here to assist you along the way.

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

Wow, Hogfire, I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven if I could pull a shot like that! Yep, I'm 66 years old, proud of it, and still can't believe I made it this long. Not famous; had a pretty good start on a music career (taught for 10 years) then arthritis in my thumbs got me, and I had to switch to art. I'm locally "famous" in that field. Whatever that's worth. Believe me, not much. I have great respect for you being a teacher and wish you all the best! It's a wonderful career, and you deserve to be "famous" for it. (I took German and Polish at IU; loved them both, now long forgotten.)
To adjust the KitchenAid grind, you remove the front plate from the settings area, and get into the plastic ring behind it. It's a bit of trouble, but completely "doable." I just have to locate my husbands allen wrenches. And I'll probably have to use a channel lock or something to help with the fork removal. (And his strength ) I'm still not sure if the threads are "backwards" and would certainly be grateful to anyone who could tell me that before I start to remove them and wind up tightening them instead of loosening them.
Thanks so much for the link! I'll definitely get a second basket and look around for other goodies, too. I'm already considering roasting my own, but am trying to wait until I can at least pull one good shot. I'm not far from Charlotte, NC, and there are roasters there, so I'm not in a hurry.
Thanks again; this forum really rocks. You guys are inspirational!

[cannonfodder]

The threads on the spout are normal, left to loosen. Being a new machine, the threads should be relatively clean


I chopped one of my Isomac PF's to make a bottomless, I used my single spout PF but I removed the spout before I cut the bottom out. Once I removed the spouts on my Factory, I screwed the single spout from my Isomac onto it.


Speaking of glasses, here is one of my favorite photos. Thick and lush crema. It was a very good shot. Problem was, the blend was a mix of left over beans I tossed together after sampling several single origin beans (I roast my own). One of those incredible mistakes.



another nice photo..

[Gatewood]

I've struggled all afternoon trying to remove those spouts. I've used torque thingies, a channel lock with a towel wrapped around them (and still made a couple of tiny scratches on it) and I just have to give up. I really hate that double spout. I think I'll have to look into buying another pf, but I don't think I can get a brass one. Bummer!

I have tried a couple more shots. Bitter and I threw them out. Oddly, at the end of the pull, when I removed the cup, and put a receptacle under the spouts, I tasted that end stuff, and it was really good. So, what am I doing here? Do I need to push more water through? I've adjusted my grinder, and I really have to lean into the lever to pull it down now. So, I think I might have a reasonable grind and tamp. Any suggestions will be tried! I'm going to have to buy some milk so I can at least save some of this coffee by frothing some milk in it. Otherwise, I'll just keep feeding my sink. Don't much like milk drinks, but I suppose I'll get so I like them better. I've always enjoyed the frothing part, especially if I don't have to use one of those fancy little frother devices. I like a plain wand. Glad I have a choice on this machine. Anyhow, I'm failing miserably in pulling a shot. Using the double basket only, now. Maybe I should try the single again.

[Hogfire]

Oh, see here, we'll have none of this self-defeatist talk! You are just beginning, and you're on the right track. Patience as well; it's going to require many, many practise shots and combinations of variables (altering grind, tamp, type of beans, etc). I'm sure I'm not too far off the mark in saying that we all started in the same place you find yourself at the moment. Breathe deeply, keep at it, I know you can succeed! I realise these photos must be discouraging, but take heart. It took us a while to make it this far, and half the fun is in the journey itself. I too have chucked heaps of shots down the drain because they were just undrinkable.

Well, you can buy a new brass portafilter from Espresso Parts North West, but they are pricey. $89 for a complete one, but it'll have those cursed spouts locked on again. You can also order all the parts separately, $49 for the portafilter body in brass, $16.99 for the handle in wood, and $4.50 for the bolt to connect those two pieces. $21 just for those vexing spouts, shocking, isn't it? But of course, you wouldn't want to order that part. $70.49 plus S/H is still painful to me, so I'd suggest taking your current portafilter to a friendly hardware store. Surely they must have a small locking vise set up in one of their departments. Bring the towel, ask them to put that around the spouts, lock the spouts into the vice (but not too tightly, because they can be crushed!), and then the hulking employee must push on the handle anti-clockwise, it will come off.

When trying to figure out the correct lever pull pressure, again the bathroom scale proves a useful tool. I read about this somewhere, but now I can't remember to credit the originator. Place the machine on the scale, and pull the lever down for a shot. You should be adding about 40lbs. to the reading on the scale, and with a double basket, a good pull can take anywhere between 10-20 seconds. Keep trying different grind settings to come near these benchmarks. Again, please note, these are only suggestions. The best judge of success will be your taste buds and no one can tell you differently. I'd say stick with the double basket until you are satisfied. The single basket will require different techniques that should only be explored once you have mastered the double.

Adding frothed milk definitely tones down a harsh and bitter shot, but be forewarned: it took me nearly a month of daily practise to achieve good microfoam, and these machines are considered to be quite good at steaming.

Right then dear, my only pep-talk is again, keep trying and don't get too discouraged, you can master this machine! Oh, and maybe don't look at Cannonfodder's last photo, it's enough to make me feel like I'm still just a noobie punter at this espresso making business!

Hogfire

[HB]

When trying to figure out the correct lever pull pressure, again the bathroom scale proves a useful tool. I read about this somewhere, but now I can't remember to credit the originator. Place the machine on the scale, and pull the lever down for a shot. You should be adding about 40lbs. to the reading on the scale, and with a double basket, a good pull can take anywhere between 10-20 seconds.

That was Steve in Elektra/Pavoni side by side:

Since the wife was out to dinner, I figured I would stage one of those very sophisticated HB tests that women would categorize as a genetic male flaw should they observe it. I decided to do a pull using the bathroom scale.

Now for this task we place the Pavoni fully warmed and primed on the scale to get an initial reading: 11 pounds starting weight.



Now the fun begins to get a full pull underway, trying to maintain form and snap a decent picture: max downward thrust reading was 51 pounds for a delta of 40 pounds required for a good shot.

He reconfirmed this on the Olympia using more sophisticated means in Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design. While I'm handing out links, also check out Chris' seventeen easy steps in La Pavoni Pro in the hands of pros.

[Gatewood]

Looks like I'd better get a low table so I can get above the Pavoni. I'm using my whole body on the lever now, though, and since I do weigh a bit more than 40 lbs I suspect I'm doing OK with that. Although, shouldn't the lever stay down when I'm done? It wants to come back up a good little bit. Maybe halfway. Also, what can I do to get that taste that I got when the shot was done? Does that mean I need more water? It certainly wasn't over-extracted; at least it didn't taste like it.
I'm not so worried about the frothing; it might take a while since this is a new machine to me, but I was able to satisfy myself with a bunch of other machines, steam toy included, as long as I could take the hot shot frother off the wand. Now, I'm not saying I can do latte art, and in truth, that's so far out that I can't even see it. But I can make a cappuccino that my coffee-clueless friends think is pretty good. No microfoam needed to hide a nasty shot. A heap of sugar, some frothy-ish milk, and cinnamon on top is a pretty good disguise. Ask Starbucks. Anyhow, I'm not giving up, although I'll give up on the portafilter's spouts. I've dinged them up with a vengeance now. I might send the whole thing off to be de-bottomed. I guess I'll have to buy another. In the meantime, I'd love to know how to get that end-of-the-shot taste that I had just the one time.

[cannonfodder]

and maybe don't look at Cannonfodder's last photo, it's enough to make me feel like I'm still just a noobie punter at this espresso making business!

Hogfire

Don't give me to much credit, those last two came from my pump machine, not my lever. Those two were just to show the glasses you mentioned.

Hogfire's suggestion of a hardware store is a good one. If you happen to have a 'real' hardware store close by, not a big box like Lowes or Home Depot. The local guys tend to be more helpful and service oriented. Some folks put the spouts in a vice (wrapped with a towel to prevent scratching) and whack the handle to break them free. I would offer to help but I am on the other side of the country.

Practice, practice and practice some more. The lever machines can be one of the hardest to get the hang of. Only change one variable at a time, keep your grind the same, pull the same and change the tamp pressure. If that does not work, then change the grind, and so on. You do not want to change all the variables from shot to shot. If you do, you wont know which change made the difference. You will eventually hit the sweet spot and have one of those wow moments. I have been at it for almost a year with the lever and I am finally starting to get the hang of it. These machines take a fine balance between the science and the art or espresso making. You will get there but it is not an overnight transformation. Don't give up.

EDIT
Are you using an aftermarket tamper or the plastic toy that came with the machine?

[Gatewood]

I'm using the plastic toy; I ordered a metal one from the same company that I got the Pavoni from, but it was backordered and hasn't come yet. This company isn't the importer that I've had so much trouble with; I called them and hassled them a bit today, and they promised the cap would go out today. We'll see.
Is the green light supposed to go on and off all the time? It never stays on but a second.
I'm not giving up; I'm a determined old lady, and have years of practice in being stubborn. I'll get it eventually, but I might be in my 90's before I do.

[kbuzbee]

The threads on the spout are normal, left to loosen. Being a new machine, the threads should be relatively clean

I'd never thought about removing the double spout 'til I read this thread. Wrapped it in a towel and put the channel locks on it. Came right off. Sometimes it IS good to be the three hundred pound gorilla

Ken

[Gatewood]

Dern! I've channel-locked until I'm blue in the face and have a terrible ding on the things now. I'd be happy to saw the darned things off. I'll keep trying; those forks are useless, and I can't find the information on a new portafilter without the forks. If I'm able to find just the top without the handle, can't I just use the handle I have?

[cannonfodder]

Yes, you can use your existing handles on a replacement portafilter body. The wood handles on my machine were custom turned for me. If I remember correctly, it uses a M12 metric bolt thread, or was it an M14? The lever and portafilter use the exact same handle, my Isomac also uses the same size handle bolt.

I would try a hardware store to see if they can twist it out. Worst case, you could send the body to me and I will unscrew it for you. I don't know what the $$ would be to send it cross country to Ohio. That would also leave you with no PF for a week and a half while it is in transit.

Here is one more trick to try. Boil a small pot of water on the stove, put just the spouts in the boiling water (up to but not including the bottom of the PF body) and let it heat for a minute. Then try wrenching it off. Metal expands when it heats. By heating the spouts but not the body, you may loosen the fit slightly and be able to break them free. Just watch the 200F metal on the spouts, wrap them in a towel to insulate them.

As kbuzbee can attest to, it takes a bit of brute force to get them to let go.

Are you using the black plastic tamper that came with the machine, or did you order a 51mm tamper that properly fits the basket? It makes a world of difference.

[Gatewood]

Thanks, Cannonfodder, I'll try the hot water thing when I get home today. My husband is a big guy, but has lost a lot of strength in his hands, and he couldn't budge it, either. I will have to wait to go to a hardware store; just too many other things going on right now.
I'm using the awful plastic tamper. I've ordered one from Aabree Coffee (where I got the pot), but it's been backordered. I hope it will come soon. If not, I may order one from someplace else, and cancel that one.

[kbuzbee]

Thanks, Cannonfodder, I'll try the hot water thing when I get home today. My husband is a big guy, but has lost a lot of strength in his hands, and he couldn't budge it, either. I will have to wait to go to a hardware store; just too many other things going on right now.
I'm using the awful plastic tamper. I've ordered one from Aabree Coffee (where I got the pot), but it's been backordered. I hope it will come soon. If not, I may order one from someplace else, and cancel that one.

I'll make you the same offer. If you want to send it to me I'll be happy to disassemble it for you It was snug but it came off pretty readily.

Cannonfodder is WAY right about the tamper too. I bought a Reg Barber when I got my Europiccola (having read the necessity for it here!) and it tamps wonderfully, and it is brass and wood matching the La Pavoni very nicely(if you care about such things.... I do).

Ken

[Hogfire]

Gatewood, if you really want to just buy the portafilter body sans spouts and handle in brass, you can. Go to the link I posted earlier for espressoparts.com, and click on the "La Pavoni Millennium Parts" selection. This will bring you to a list of parts and order form. Near the bottom of the list, you will see part# MP71B - Millennium Portafilter Body - Brass. It's $68.00, I mistakenly gave the chrome price before, MP71. The chrome part is $20 cheaper, but it probably wouldn't look too hot with your brass beauty. You can use the current handle and connecting bolt you have now. And if you get the itch later on, you could send them your portafilter body with the spouts (if you can't get them off), and they can cut out the bottom for you, allowing you to go naked when the urge strikes you! I love the extensive parts listing they have created. It gives me peace of mind knowing that if I ever have a malfunction or problem, I can probably fix it myself.

Hmmm, if your handle wants to come back up half way after you pull a shot, it sounds like you may be grinding too finely. I'd go one notch coarser, and see how that works out. My handle also wants to rebound from residual pressure in the grouphead after a shot, but not nearly that much, just an inch or two, then the pressure dissipates.

Cannonfodder, has your father turned a steam valve knob for you yet? I ordered the notched Pavoni version, and it's so much easier to grip than the original slick ball version. I drink straight shots about 75% of the time, but little mods like this make using the machine even more convenient and enjoyable, as I'm sure you already know very well.

Hogfire

[cannonfodder]

Hmmm, if your handle wants to come back up half way after you pull a shot, it sounds like you may be grinding too finely.
Hogfire

When I am 'in the zone' my lever will raise about 1/8-1/2 of an inch at the end of the handle (lever) from residual pressure. A few seconds later that pressure has bled off (no more PF sneeze).

Cannonfodder, has your father turned a steam valve knob for you yet? I ordered the notched Pavoni version, and it's so much easier to grip than the original slick ball version. I drink straight shots about 75% of the time, but little mods like this make using the machine even more convenient and enjoyable, as I'm sure you already know very well.

Hogfire

Not yet. He was in and out of the hospital with respiratory issues for a couple of months. Standing in sawdust and wood chips would not help the situation.

He has to finish turning the handles for my Isomac. Then I am going to cut new control knobs out of the same stock so it all matches. Then I will get him to turn a new steam knob for my Factory. I want to make it longer, not just a ball, so I have more knob to work with.

I got my tamper from EPWNW, they also have the HB logo tampers. My Factory tamp is a 51mm Lava, I use my HB tamper on my pump machine (58mm). Keep in mind that a 51mm tamp base will most likely be a 'build to order' tamper. I believe my tamp took a couple of weeks.

[Gatewood]

I've been gone all day and didn't get a chance to try to pull a shot, but since I've been home, my husband and I have tried the boiling water thing plus every other thing we could think of. That fork is on to stay! So, I'm going to order the brass portafilter body (thanks, Hogfire; I wasn't sure that didn't have the spouts attached) and will later on send the one I have off to be denuded.

So, I'll back off one click on the grind and see what happens tomorrow. Cannonfodder, hope you'll post photos of the whole thing when all the knobs and handles are finished. What I saw before was beautiful.

I'll give the tamper I ordered a couple more days, then will go ahead and order a wood and brass one. Yes, those things matter! When the machine is this beautiful, that little plastic doodad is an insult. Ken, is your Europiccola a Millenium one? Does a 51mm tamper fit, or does it need to be a little bigger or smaller?

[kbuzbee]

I'll give the tamper I ordered a couple more days, then will go ahead and order a wood and brass one. Yes, those things matter! When the machine is this beautiful, that little plastic doodad is an insult. Ken, is your Europiccola a Millenium one? Does a 51mm tamper fit, or does it need to be a little bigger or smaller?

It is one of the single switch, single green light models. I think that's a Millenium. It's a 51mm and it fits fine. You'll be amazed at the difference.

Ken