Any help diagnosing my faulty La Pavoni? - Page 2

[Gatewood]

Mine has the white markings, too, and I couldn't decide what CE meant. Or if it mattered.

[cannonfodder]

Hogfire, the hissing I was referring to was from the steam wand. I open it to relieve false pressure as it heats, poor man's vacuum breaker valve.

I have a Gaggia Factory which was made by Pavoni, 98% of it is identical.

Gatewood, I have never had my pressure valve open under heat so having one hiss and spatter while heating would be disconcerting to me.

I suppose the valve could have been stuck open. You could try soaking it in some descale for a while to see if there is any lime buildup in there. I can compress the pin (push it in) with the blunt end of a ball point pen. It is stiff but moveable.

Is your unit a two switch or do you a single power switch and a P-stat controlled element? If it were venting after only 4 minutes I would almost say the cap valve is stuck open. It should take several minutes for the machine to come to full temp/pressure.

The white print on the boiler cap looks like a manufacturer's stamp or possibly a certification body (UL, NFS etc...)

I believe the photos you are referring to are in these threads.

Gaggia Factory, the forgotten lever


New Cocobolo Handles for my Lever Machine

[Gatewood]

Mine is a single switch. I think lime buildup on a brand new machine is a strange thing. I'm not going to try to fix it, so they will honor the warranty. I'm afraid I could get it to work, then have it go out on me in the future. Of course, they don't seem to be in a hurry to let me know when they will replace it. I do think something must have stuck the valve open. It shot steam and water around in a hurry.

(love those photos! Beautiful machine!)

[cannonfodder]

I missed the part about it being a new machine. They do fill and heat them at the factory for QC, but it would be very unusual to have any buildup from that.

I have a pretty good cold so my head is a bit swimmy, I will use that as my excuse for being a little slow this evening . I am sitting here on the couch watching the pro bowl drinking a cup of orange spice tea (the French press works for more than coffee).

Thank you for the compliment, she is not an Elektra, but it works pretty good.

[Hogfire]

Right then, I just had to prove to myself that I hadn't gone totally nutter and wasn't relying on some false memory about my machine's behaviour during warm-up, so I conducted a "lil' test." I filled the boiler to the top of the sight glass, switched it on, and sat with my eyes glued to the machine the whole time. And just as I recall, the heating element starts its chuffing business for a few minutes, then steam starts to sputter n' spit out of the cap for about 4-5 seconds, then "FFFFFTTTTT!", the valve in the cap audibly snaps shut, and immediately afterwards the pressure gauge needle starts to climb. Dunno if this is a true vacuum breaker (are you familiar with this phenomenon Gatewood?), but when I open the steam wand after the element stops heating there is no noticeable drop in pressure on the gauge. There has never been anything released from the boiler cap while I'm using the machine, so I assume it's functioning as designed.

As Cannonfodder has already stated, it sounds as if your boiler cap valve is getting stuck open during warm-up, yet you've already confirmed that the centre plunger moves freely when you apply a bit of pressure on it. Hmmm, I wish I had some other advice for you Gatewood, but it appears the only safe thing to do is wait on a replacement. Hope your patience is stronger than mine. . .

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

No, I don't know what a vacuum breaker is; not familiar with it except that when you interrupt a vacuum, it's bound to fill quickly with air (or whatever is there). But I've not heard that term, especially not with coffee. You can hear the valve shut? I'm surprised at that. My instructions say that If I fill to the top of the sight glass, some of the water/steam will definitely escape from the valve, but not if it's not all the way full. Also, they say to open the steam wand pressure knob until the green light goes back off, to stabilize the pressure (I don't have the gauge; mine is the Europiccola type) and let it come back on before pulling a shot. I am confused about why yours shouldn't have the gauge drop when you open the steam wand. Are you getting steam out of there?

I'm not patient. I will call and bug them incessantly until I get results.

[Brink]

Mine has the white markings, too, and I couldn't decide what CE meant. Or if it mattered.

This is a "European Union"-thing.

The CE brand declares that the product has been tested and complies with European Standards.

In other words - don't bother if it is there or not, it doesn't matter

[cannonfodder]

Interesting. My Factory does not do that. Just the rumble bubble as the element heats until it completes the heating cycle. I am home sick today and my lever is at work so I can not play with it. Here is a quick little test. Take the cap off, turn it over so you are looking at the plunger. Then fill the cap with water, up to the hole in the threads. If it is a normally open valve (vacuum breaker) then the water will drain. If it is a normally closed valve (pressure relief) then the water will pool until you push the plunger, then it will drain.

I am 95% positive that it is an overpressure release valve but I have been wrong before. Gatewood, if you are going to call Pavoni, ask them if that is a pressure release/over pressure valve or a vacuum breaker, that should clarify everything.

[Gatewood]

I did it; filled the cap, and it drained without my having to push the valve. So, it's open. Pressure should close it, right? Or wrong?

I don't get to call Pavoni; I have to talk to European Gift and Housewares, the importer. They aren't responding too well. I may call in a bit just to see what the progress is on the cap, and ask that when I do call.

[cannonfodder]

What do you know, I guess it is a vacuum breaker, or yours is stuck in the open position or has bad gaskets. I would have sworn it was normally closed and only opened to vent excessive pressure.

I took a sick day and went to the doctor. I will have to try my cap when I get to work tomorrow.

[Hogfire]

Or for another simple, less wet test: With the machine turned off, water in the boiler and no pressure, steam wand shut and boiler cap fitted on, lift and lower the lever (goes much more easily and smoothly if warm), notice how air is pushed out and sucked in through the boiler cap. I also have the portafilter and basket locked into the group, but I reckon that doesn't matter.

This is how my machine functions. The boiler cap valve always shuts when the water is warm enough to start building pressure, and I repeat, it has never released anything while the machine is up to pressure and in use. If further proof is needed, shall I attach a video? Hmm, I wonder how one does that in these forums? If my cap is defective, it's been that way since I got the machine one year ago, and I'm very pleased with this "defective" behaviour, it's brilliant!

Gatewood, I'm not well versed in correct terminology to describe the "vacuum in a boiler" phenomenon, but here goes: Because we cannot fill our boilers to the absolute limit, there is an air pocket above the water. When the boiler builds pressure, this air pocket creates a "false pressure", can't remember exactly why (somebody help me out here please!) which tricks the pressure stat into shutting off the heating element too soon, and the water is not really hot enough. This is why you are instructed to open the steam wand: to release this air bubble so that only pure steam is occupying the space above the water. Pressure will drop suddenly, and your heating element will then resume working until correct pressure is attained (green light signal). Hope that doesn't cause more confusion:)!

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

OK, let me get this straight: Open the steam wand (my directions say to do this) until the green light shuts off, then close it, and when the green light comes back on, it's up to temp? I would guess it would take longer than that. Haven't I read on this forum or another that you have to wait about 30 minutes to get the right temperature? My directions say the machine gets up to where the green light comes on in 7 to 9 minutes. I really don't believe that it would be hot enough at that point.

Seems to me that if there is water in the boiler and you raise and lower the lever, that you'll get water out the group. Not air. But I'm guessing here. Maybe my defective cap makes that impossible, anyhow. I think my valve is just stuck, but I'm holding out for a new cap.

[Hogfire]

Uhh, ok, this'll be tricky because your machine's electronics operate slightly differently from mine, namely, my green light never shuts off while the machine is switched on. Your machine has a red power switch I believe, in addition to the green light. My machine only has the green lighted switch. Your green light indicates power is being supplied to the heating element. After you initially turn it on, the machine will heat up and then power to the heating element and green light will be cut when a designated pressure is attained. Because this pressure reading may be false, you must release the air bubble, which will cause the pressure to drop and the heating element and green light to come on. It should only take an additional minute or two for your machine to now arrive at the true pressure setting, green light off and your signal to start pulling. At this point, I always pull a few ounces of water through the grouphead with an empty portafilter and basket locked in to warm up those components. My boiler is twice the size of yours, and believe it or not, its ready to use after a 10 minute warm up. The 30 minute warm up period you mention is in refernce to small, pump driven machines, like the Rancilio Silvia and such. Larger machines can require up to 1hr for adequate warm up because of all the componentry.

When there is no pressure in the boiler and you raise the lever, the rising piston forces air back into the boiler, which escapes out of my boiler cap. Pulling the lever down sucks air into the boiler through the cap, and you may have some water drawn into the grouphead depending upon how forcefully you pull.

Whew! I'm absolutely worn out from all this writing and must attend to my studies and lesson planning for tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, it's an absolute pleasure to help you if I can, but don't take it the wrong way if I don't respond anymore this evening. Hope I'm able to explain things clearly for you!

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

I certainly won't take it wrong if you don't respond. I'm quite grateful to you for taking all this time to explain things to me. I think I get it, and I'll give it a try in the morning. I'm an hour later than you here (went to school at IU in Bloomington, always had a good time in Indianapolis) and have to cook supper, so won't fool with it any more tonight, anyhow. Thanks, Hogfire.

Gatewood

[Hogfire]

Good morning Gatewood, fellow IU alumni,

What a coincidence, I also attended IU for two years until I decided to run off to France to finish my undergrad. It such a beautiful campus, isn't it? I still have a very warm memories of that city, which get stirred up every time I visit. Luckily, I've still got a few mates that live there. So, you always had a good time in Indianapolis, eh? I can just imagine what shenanigans you must've gotten into. Yes, it's not bad here at all, and I've met some very fantastic, lovely people in this state, but I miss living near mountains and majestic natural beauty, so it's off to Portland after I finish my masters. What did you study at IU then?

Eureka! I may have sussed out the mystery of the euro-cap. I wanted to find a photo of the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva cap to compare, and I stumbled upon a pro-review of that machine on CoffeeGeek.com. The reviewer (I believe Mark Prince, their site is not loading this morning for me to double check info) mentions in the usage section of the review that the Elektra has a boiler pressure check valve on top in addition to the cap. He states that this check valve will sputter during warm-up, close, then open at higher pressure to bring the boiler to .8 bar pressure. He seems to be in the same habit as myself in that even though the vacuum has been released, he still bleeds it a bit through the steam wand before pulling the first shot. Perhaps this boiler cap we have is doing double duty? A check valve and overpressure relief. Or are they the same thing, just different names? I wonder if our machines have the separate metal cap in order to shield the user from spray if an overpressure situation occurs?

Anyway Gatewood, it's very nice to communicate with you, but whatever you plan to do with the machine and boiler cap you have, please be very, very, very careful, OK?

Off to teach in the urban jungle, later all,

Hogfire

[Gatewood]

Good morning, Hogfire!
I was a music major at IU (piano performance) with a separate major in art. I'm a very old person, so it was a long time ago that I was at Bloomington, but I have fond memories of the fall in Brown County, Nick's Pub (is it still there?) and not so fond memories of snow. As a southerner, snow was unacceptable to me.

You've been very helpful with this Pavoni problem of mine. Thanks for that. I'll read the Elektra review again; I'd read it before when deciding which machine to get. So, the valve should open at the beginning and after there's too much pressure? I think that's confusing, but I guess that would keep it from blowing up. I would release pressure from the steam wand, too, simply because this little machine of mine with it's one little button seems too basic to have a fancy double duty check and release valve. Anyhow, thanks for your help, good luck with your masters, and hopefully I'll get a new cap soon.

Gatewood

[cannonfodder]

Interesting. I just played with the cap from my Factory. If I invert the cap and put water in it, it holds it. Then if I push the plunger down, the water drains out. However, thinking about hogfire's post about that cap serving two different purposes, I picked it up and held it right side up to look at the plunger. It drops about 1/16 of on inch in that position and is slack. So it does appear that the plunger pops up under pressure sealing the cap, then it opens again when the boiler pressure gets too high.

On my cap, when inverted gravity closes the vacuum breaker portion. If I fill the cap with water, it holds water until I push the plunger down. I have never filled my boiler to the top of the sight glass so I have never had it spit and sputter water while heating. I usually leave about one inch of air in the sight glass when I fill it.

Learn something new every day.

[Gatewood]

That got me jiggling around with my cap. I poked it a few times with a chopstick. Now, mine falls down a bit when held threads down, and I have to push with the chopstick to get it to go up. Also, now mine is holding water from the little hole under the threads down. So, I might have done something to get mine functioning, because it's behaving entirely differently now. My husband, the mechanical engineer (way back years ago) is of the opinion that it might be working correctly now, and I might give it another try. I still think I'd better bug them about sending on a new cap. It never should have stuck open the first time, and I suppose it could do it again. I might get him to call this time; they don't have much respect for females, I don't think. We aren't "supposed" to be savvy about this stuff. (OK, I'm not; but I don't go for the generalization, either.) I've not heard another word from the company about when they will send this on, and I'm itching to see if I have the strength to pull a decent shot.

Thanks for that bit of info, cannonfodder. I wouldn't have thought to hold it upright and mess with it.

Gatewood

[cannonfodder]

Glad to help, even if you did not go to Ohio State.

When you pull your shots, put the machine on a bathroom scale. With the proper grind and tamp, you should be pulling in the 35-40 pound range. Most folks don't have much trouble with much force. If you do, try putting the machine on a lower surface, like the kitchen table. That way you can leverage your body weight to aid in the extraction.

[Gatewood]

I'm sure I'll have to get above it. I've got to take my grinder apart to get a finer grind. Yep, I gave it a try after your post, cannonfodder, about the check/release (whatever!) valve and after my chopstick operation got it freer. It works! It lives! I still intend to get a replacement cap, because I don't think it should have ever stuck, and I'm afraid it will stick again. But, I have many questions. My first try was predictably nasty, although I drank it. It was bitter, and although it was hot enough, I'm sure it was too loose a grind. I didn't have to use a lot of effort to pull the lever. I practically stood on the tamper to tamp it as hard as I could, so I'm pretty sure the grind was at fault. Coffee is fresh, and good (Intelligentsia Black Cat), so that wasn't it. But I have a question. I want to make two shots, so my husband doesn't get half of that tiny little one shot (I have to share ) and I'm afraid of the portafilter sneeze. How long do I wait before I can take the portafilter out and reload? I'm using the single basket, by the way. I'd use the double, but I think the single is probably easier at first. And if I manage to get the portafilter out without spraying the kitchen in grounds, do I go through the whole process again of running hot water through the pf again to get it hot? Lastly, but not least, that dadgummed portafilter has the forks so spread out that I have to use a big cup to get everything in it. I think I read that you can take the forks off, and that they unscrew clockwise rather than anti-clockwise. Is that correct? All these questions! I'm grateful to you guys for helping an old newbie through this process. And so very grateful that your posts (everybody's!) have made me fool with that cap until I've got it working fairly well. Thanks!

Gatewood