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Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP - Page 2

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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by bobpaule on Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:26 am

They sell them better on the eecky bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Espresso-CAPP...h=item330098765731




mrgnomer wrote:Hi Mark,

Not bad shipping.

I e mailed Gensaco yesterday to find out about the shipping on their Export and they got back to me to tell me they're out. They offered another spring lever machine and it looks pretty good but I don't know much about it. Anyone know if these machines are any good?

http://www.gensaco.com/Cap_SITE.html

Other than that I'm leaning towards a Europiccalo or Factory. Espressotec prices are pretty good and they've got free shipping.
Never get between a man and his ristretto, ever!
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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by jamoke on Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:19 am

They sell them better on the eecky bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Espress...ego...h=item330098765731




mrgnomer wrote:
Hi Mark,

Not bad shipping.

I e mailed Gensaco yesterday to find out about the shipping on their Export and they got back to me to tell me they're out. They offered another spring lever machine and it looks pretty good but I don't know much about it. Anyone know if these machines are any good?

http://www.gensaco.com/Cap_SITE.html

That ebay machine isn't the same machine as the one linked to at the Gensaco site. It has a direct (no spring) lever on a 1 liter boiler. The one at Gensaco has a spring lever on a 1.8 liter boiler. They are both apparent rebadges of machines made by Zacconi, the larger one being called La Riviera. Bill Jackson may chime in with his experiences with an older version of this machine. Yes, it is configured much like the Elektra.

Ed
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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by bobpaule on Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:14 pm

Thx for the correction. That serves me well, lever newb dishin out advice.

A question, isn't a direct piston preferable to a spring-loaded machine, as it should allow more user control ?
Never get between a man and his ristretto, ever!
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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by espressme on Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:12 pm

bobpaule wrote:Thx for the correction. That serves me well, lever newb dishin out advice.

A question, isn't a direct piston preferable to a spring-loaded machine, as it should allow more user control ?

Hello Bob,
my 1¢
Each of the machine types has advantages. I have both direct and spring lever machines.
    The spring lever requires the grind and tamp to be very consistent for daily results.
    The direct lever allows for some change of pressure during the pull but still requires grind and tamp to be correct.
    Either type may have the flow modified by controlling the lever speed.

If freshness of roast, grind, tamp, water temperature, humidity of the room, and phase of the moon are all correct you will get occasional godshots with either type and good shots almost every time.
It's a Now and Zen thing! :lol:
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richard penney LMWDP #090,
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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by mrgnomer on Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:12 pm

Thanks for the responses,

I found some info on the machines. Yes, they're rebadged Riviera machines. There's not alot of info on them. The specs look decent. The only opinions I found about them are mixed. I don't think I'd spend the money unless I was more sure about the machine.
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Link to "Another Ponte Vecchio Export Applies to the LMWDP"by Dogshot on Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:39 pm

I am finding the Export to be a very user-friendly machine. I still weigh my dose, but once the grind is dialled in, distribution is far less of an issue than it is with my 58mm basket. I usually use the WDT with the 58mm, followed by a roughly 30lb tamp. I subscribe to the less-is-more theory of puck preparation, so I don't do any extra tamping or polishing. With the Export, there is no need for a WDT, just a quick level, or a few gentle taps on the PF if up-dosing. My tamp is barely enough to level the puck surface. Shots never seem to show visual or in-the-cup signs of poor extraction.

My wife has no problem with me buying whatever I want, but she does have an issue with the amount of kitchen real estate my coffee obsession takes up. Rule is, no more than 1 machine on the go at once, which sounds reasonable anyway; the up-shot is that I bring the Export up from the basement when I want to play with it a bit, then take it down again at the end of the day. The Brewtus II is just too big to move around easily.

With 2 such different machines on the counter, I have been attempting to understand what others are referring to when they say that the differences between pump and lever machines are that levers have more clarity, richness, depth, etc. So I have been playing with pulling shots of equal brew ratio using the same coffee on the 2 machines. I am not very accustomed to pulling low-ratio shots on the Brewtus II, and was fairly surprised how similar a low-ratio shot is in terms of body and appearance to the lever shots.

Here is a shot using 15.5gm of coffee, and a final shot weight of 35gm (ratio = 44%) done on the Brewtus II.

Image


And this is a shot on the Export using 11gm of coffee with a shot weight of 29gm
(ratio = 38%).


Image

My perception so far is that the Brewtus II shots show more of the low-tone (bitters, licorice, dark cherry, cocoa, dark chocolate, etc.) flavours and high-tone (acidic) flavours than the spring lever shots, when directly compared. If I were to depict this perception graphically, where the x-axis represents low-to-high flavour tones and the y-axis represents flavour intensity, I would say that the spring lever shots remind me of a normal distribution, where the highest intensity point is in the mid-tone band of flavours and is higher than any point on the pump Brewtus II curve. By comparison, the Brewtus II shots seem to be slightly higher at the extreme ends of the flavour spectrum and relatively muted at the mid-point.
Image
This perception in taste differences certainly jives with others' perceptions of greater richness (at comparable brew ratios). The Export shots taste much richer and rounder than the Brewtus II shots at the same ratio. I am not sure I understand others' concepts of clarity, however, since I find that the shots from the Brewtus II have more discernable character tones (highs and lows) than the Export shots. The Export shots do seem to correlate more with the smell of the coffee as it is being ground.

This graphic also makes sense given the way that shots from the Brewtus II have a narrow temp band over which they go from sour to great to bland to bitter. If the Brewtus II is emphasizing the highs and lows, then smaller temp variations should have a larger effect on those highs and lows. If a higher temp brings out more bitterness, the Export shots are already more subdued on that end of the flavour, and can withstand more temp variation before the bitterness becomes unpalatable.

I hope this resonates with a few other pump and lever users, and provides a bit more information for those who are considering a spring lever machine. I can without hesitation say that based on my experience, there is no contest between a spring lever and a Gaggia/Silvia single boiler machine when it comes to ease of shot preparation, enjoyment of use, and results in the cup. The spring lever will still be pulling shots long after the Gaggia/Silvia has been ebayed and forgotten.

Mark
LMWDP #106
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