Anita no longer water dancing during cooling flush?

[CyclingCraig]

Hey all;

This is really weird. Sunday I did my routine cleaning and maintenance, which includes a chemical cleaning(Urnex Cafiza) backflush, clean pour over tank, Check boiler water hardness and recharge in tank softener.

Everything seemed fine, but now I noticed I don't get a water dance when I go to do the cooling flush before I pull a shot? The boiler pressure is the same (.9 to 1.1 bar)? and I let her warm up for OVER an hour at least.

The only thing I did notice is the water coming out of the dispersion screen is more "dispersed" than it had been in the past when doing a cooling flush. I used to get pretty much a cone as you would when you pull a naked shot, but now I get many many separate streams coming out of the screen?

Any Ideas?

Thanks
- Craig

[cannonfodder]

A quick check, if you open your steam valve, does the boiler pressure drop like a rock? I am wondering if your vacuum breaker is stuck closed. That will give you false pressure in the boiler and the machine will never come to full temperature unless you bleed off that pressure.

[CyclingCraig]

Thanks..

I am at work right now, but I will check that AS SOON as I get home?

What does my "Vacuum Breaker" do?

-Craig

[jesawdy]

What does my "Vacuum Breaker" do?

The vacuum breaker is sometimes referred to as an anti-depression valve. In a copper boiler (or similar thin-walled boiler), anti-depression is quite fitting as it keeps the boiler from collapsing or depressing as the contents of the boiler cool.

The valve should open by it's own weight when the boiler cools, allowing air to enter the boiler, preventing a vacuum condition. When the boiler heats up, steam pressure closes the valve, but not until some steam escapes first, so that the headspace of the boiler is saturated steam only.

In this pic, its in a silver metal cup to the right of the hi-limit reset.

from Chris Coffee FAQ page

[HB]

Good answer, thanks Jeff. I'll contribute a photo of two vacuum breakers commonly found in espresso machines:


From Vapor lock

[CyclingCraig]

OK.. Here is what happens.

I open the steam wand valve and the pressure drops to about .7 Bar quickly, but then almost immediately the heating element comes on and the pressure gauge rebounds FAST stays steady at around 1 to 1.1 bar.

Is that Good?

[jesawdy]

Does she dance now?

[CyclingCraig]

Ehhh.. She's Kinda dancing... but not like she used to...

What do you guys think?

Here is a water dance from Anita. This was taken after a FULL warmup 2+ hours, then I pulled a shot, waited about 20 minutes and shot this:


Here is a video of Steam Performance after purging the wand and a couple of minutes after the above video:


Is the pressure supposed to drop so fast? When you see the pressure start coming back up, that is when the Heating element came on.

[HB]

The steam looks fine to me. It's hard to judge the flush for certain without seeing the screen, but it did look a bit feeble. Have you checked for scale?


See Sputtering e61 & HX scale build-up - Cured! for more details

[CyclingCraig]

Here is another video of the water dance without the PF in, looking right at the dispersion screen? Still seems feeble right?



I also checked the vacuum breaker and it seems fine.. after I let it cool for a little I pushed the pin sticking out of it lightly and it went right down and I got a stream of steam?

Thanks

[HB]

Boy that pump is loud! Anyway, I saw no steam flashing. It should flash a little after 5-6 minutes idle and flash vigorously after 20+ minutes idle. Have you checked the mushroom for scale? Be careful not to scratch the chrome...

[mybs]

The pour behavior on the second video is what I usually get right on the Anita after the Cafiza backflush prior to the new seasoning shots. That behavior goes away after I pull about 3 double shots after the water backflushes to clean out the grouphead. I end up throwing out the first two seasoning shots, and the third shot has usually acted and tasted "normal." From what I've seen, the Anita returns to routine behavior shortly afterwards.

[CyclingCraig]

Didn't check for scale yet (Little afraid to start unscrewing E61), but it looks like I have to..

To Check Mushroom, do I unscrew #1 or #2?



Thanks

[HB]

The bottom one. You can unscrew the top one if you want to check if the screen is clogged, but that wouldn't affect the idle temperature. The bolt should not be very tight and remember to protect the chrome (a friend of mine works on Porsches and has pricey nylon-lined sockets of all sizes). If you're really careful, you can remove it with an adjustable wrench and protective padding.

From E61 Group Espresso Machine: Detailed Interior Schematics

[CyclingCraig]

Thanks everyone for your patience and help

I will check the mushroom when I get home from work today..

I don't like it when Anita is sick .

That behavior goes away after I pull about 3 double shots after the water backflushes to clean out the grouphead

I already pulled a couple of shots, at least 4 or so... since the chem backflush.. Maybe I need to do a couple of more to get her back in shape.

I will try that after I check the mushroom for scale today as well

Thanks again guys for the help

[CyclingCraig]

Here is the mushroom, looks good to me? no scale, just some of the chrome plating coming off?(Is this normal for a 3 mo old machine?)

[erics]

Hi Craig -

Our Anitas share the same birthday. I believe your boiler pressure drops way too much initially when cranking open the steam valve - obviously recovery is quite good. This leads me to believe that your boiler water level is too high due to a leaky boiler fill valve.

How come there is no emoticon for sticking your neck out HB ?

Does your boiler refill for a split second (couple of bursts) during steaming?

Does your pstat cycle the heating element 2 to 3 times a minute after the machine is FULLY warmed up?

It would seem as though the grouphead is cooler now than it was before this problem manifested itself. This would be due to a reduced flow in the thermosyphon loop.

Eric S.

[CyclingCraig]

Man! Work is constantly getting in the way of me playing with my espresso!

Thanks Eric, once again I will check out your suggestions tonight when I get home from work. But I do know the group head DOES still get very hot, not sure about answers to the other items you mentioned. I will post back after I test later on tonight

Eric, also I should be getting the adapter you mailed out to me pretty soon, that may help me figure some things out as well

I didn't have time to make anything this morning, and now I have to wait like 9 HOURS till my next espresso... I don't know if I can make it

[erics]

This is just one set of data from one user so . . .

My heating element cycles twice in about 50 seconds on a warmed up machine.

When I try to "steam" about 10 ounces of water, the heating element will actually turn off after a minute or so of "steaming" and the pump certainly refills the boiler on short bursts of pump operation.

Try draining some water out of the boiler (when she is up to temp/pressure) and thus activating the fill for a few cycles.

Eric

[CyclingCraig]

Maybe I am being too Paranoid and my Anita is really fine?

Here is what a Boiler cycle looks like on anita.(This is me with a timer and watching the Pressure Gauge on the front and writing values down, not too accurate but gives you a general feel)


The end of the graph is when the heating element kicks on and brings it back to 1.2 Bar. Can I adjust the deadband on the pstat (upgraded Jaeger) so it kicks on before .7 bar?

Does your boiler refill for a split second (couple of bursts) during steaming?

Can steam for about a minute and a half before the pump kicks on for a second of so, but heating element cycles a couple of times during that minute and half.

EricS: I received your adapter yesterday and installed it. after an hour of warmup, the temp from the adapter when just sitting there is about 206? is that about right?

I was going to video the thermometer during a cooling flush to 185, then wait 45 seconds and pull a shot and video the thermometer again.

Would that help? and would you be able to tell if the readings I am getting from the thermometer are about right?(Which would tell me if my temps are actually low, or maybe my engineering background geekyness is making me paranoid)

Thanks