Quickmill Andreja Premium vs. Expobar Brewtus

[Bearista]

Does anyone have direct experience in comparing these 2 machines? I have read many of the posts for these machines on the Coffeegeek site. Dan I know that you have direct experience with the Andreja but I don't know if you are familiar with the Brewtus. I am looking for something that is built well and that will give me consistant temperatures when pulling shots. Hopefully to get more "god shots". Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am upgrading from a Pasquini Livia.

Thanks - Ted

[HB]

I briefly test drove the Brewtus at last year's Counter Culture Coffee EspressoFest and have checked out its cousin, the Expobar Lever, owned by a local friend. That doesn't qualify me to make specific judgments, but I will offer some general comments. To begin, I think the (unstated) underlying question of your proposed side-by-side could be restated: "Is a dual boiler espresso machine inherently superior to a similarly priced HX?" Before stepping down that slippery slope, below are the scores I've used in the conclusions of the previous buyer's guides:

1. Exceptional Espresso
2. Morning After
3. Cappuccino Lover
4. Convenience / Features
5. Materials and Workmanship

(Click here for a fuller explanation of these scores).

Unquestionably temperature is an important variable to manage and the design of a dual boiler gives it a natural advantage over HXs in terms of simplicity. So out of the gate, we can presume Brewtus would have the edge on the second score. The battle over the first score is where the serious debate begins. It's easy to understand why commercial cafes prefer dual boilers -- a dedicated steam boiler and presumably an easier time maintaining a stable temperature shot-to-shot. But does this advantage carry over into your home where you're thinking 3-4 drinks versus 30-40?

Possibly. But our Cimbali Junior versus La Marzocco Linea taste test was an eye-opener for me. One of the participant's comments really sticks in my mind: "This test proves you can get 90-95% of the way to god shots with just good solid fundamentals... And obviously it helps to have a great espresso machine."

So what makes a "great" espresso machine? Alas, all the machines I've reviewed on this site are among the best and intentionally so -- frankly I'm not interested in spending my precious "free time" on inferior equipment. The Brewtus has been discussed extensively on CoffeeGeek, but I've not seen an independent report (sorry, but too many consumer reviews are soliloquies of a love-struck new owner). If you would like to see it reviewed on this site, I encourage you to send your own "love note" to Todd at Whole Latte Love.

[CafSuperCharged]

Considering the recent debate on classical dual boiler vs other designs and this thread popped up in the hot thread list, I thought I'd put some considerations in.

Potential spoilers ahead. Be aware that much of the debate about all those parameters, variables, components and machine architectures and the rituals related to them is about wanting god shots all the time without thinking by the press of a button. In the meantime, people writing this have better espressi at home than in Michelin starred restaurants or any reasonably good coffee bar in Italy. Without much consideration.

Let me first confess I own a QM Andreja Premium. Am I satisfied with this machine? Yes. Are there better machines? Yes. But then you'd say, define better. I'd say: putting out consistent coffee (inter-shot repeatability) and able to do god shots as often as possible (add intra-shot qualities like consistency related to profiles of pressure, temperature and flow speed).

It's all about the coffee (that you put in) and the hand (that operated the machine) and the grinder (that gives the best particle size distribution). I also have a simple $200 pod-only machine that I sometimes use in my project offices, or my wife uses at home to do lungos (espresso with ~double the amount of water). Simple, no heavy duty parts, no HX, and if you want to steam, you need to to switch the entire machine to a higher temperature, steam and let it cool down again. The ugly plastic body even resonates less to the vibration pump. But I really prefer the coffee I can get out of Andreja.

Andreja will do serious steam with the boiler at high enough pressure/temperature. In fact the HX tube running through the steam boiler was designed to be long enough to heat cold water to espresso temperature (flow speed, water temperature at inlet?).
As I do not steam, I reduced pressure, and now find I do not need to flush less volume, but flushing has become much less critical.

If you compare all these HX "issues" to double boiler machines, the question is if they all disappear or other ones will surface.
Some dual boiler machine may have a smallish steam boiler with limited steam capacity so it runs out of steam quickly. This impacts maybe two cappuccini or a few back-to-back milk based drinks. Then, to keep the dual boiler fit for normal electrical home AC outlets, the heating element in the steam boiler and brew boiler now separate and each have less capacity than in a single (HX) boiler machine. Before moving over to the more critical part, I would still point to that double boiler machine may have a huge Sirai pressurestat, but what is the point if the attributed precision is used for heating saturated water vapor (steam) that does not really need all that sophistication (and probably why La Marzocco put a simple pressurestat on their steam boilers in their commercial machines). It adds to the bill and maybe to pride of the owner, but I see no other advantage.
The more critical part would be the brew boiler and group. This thread compares a HX machine to a dual boiler, however both have exposed E/61 groups. In a HX machine, during idle, the group is heated with water that is too hot for espresso, but supposedly the group gets heated at the right temperature in the specific environment it is in (do we now need to adjust HX boiler pressure to environmental temperature?)
This is the way the original E/61 was designed and a two group machine would give the barista the possibility to do short back-to-back series on the first group before it gets too cold and then move to the second group.
Put an exposed E/61 on a dual boiler machine and the picture completely changes. The boiler is at or near brew temperature now implying the group is not heated to the brew temperature like it would be in the HX case. The portafilter may be significantly too cold and need to be rinsed with hot water before making an espresso even.
Here, integrating the E/61 into the body of the machine would reduce this effect as the environmental temperature in the machine is much higher due to boiler heat dissipation.
But now we get into territory dominated by machines not with E/61 groups but with saturated groups (La Marzocco) or groups integrated with the boiler (Dalla Corte).
Is this really that important that a dual boiler espresso machine with exposed E/61 groups could not turn out god shots? Having sampled god shots from a three group Kees van der Westen, the answer is that it is possible, but then the huge PID controlled heat mass in the huge boiler will play a role and it may be possible to run this mass a few 10th of degrees hotter than optimal brew temperature to compensate. And your barista may flush the portafilter when you may think that is for hygiene reasons and wonder why he moves between groups all the time.

There is no simple answer, you may never find a machine that does not require you to discover the proper ritual, even though some are easier. Much depends on the forgivingness of your coffee blend. With an electronic thermostat (including PID) it is easier to adjust temperature to coffee blend and you may do that sooner than if your machine has a pressurestat hidden under the hood and you revert to flushing to compensate for not adjusting pressure/temperature. Some of the blends are more finicky and, depending on the machine, you may have serious difficulties to get god shots out of them. But then, you'll switch over to another blend that does the trick for you.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[BobS]

Considering the recent debate on classical dual boiler vs other designs and this thread popped up in the hot thread list, I thought I'd put some considerations in.

...Before moving over to the more critical part, I would still point to that double boiler machine may have a huge Sirai pressurestat, but what is the point if the attributed precision is used for heating saturated water vapor (steam) that does not really need all that sophistication (and probably why La Marzocco put a simple pressurestat on their steam boilers in their commercial machines). It adds to the bill and maybe to pride of the owner, but I see no other advantage.

There are some advantages to the Sirai. Whether they are worth the extra cost to the end buyer, that's
a different discussion. The Sirai has 30A contacts, while pressurestats like the CEME have 15A contacts.
This means the typical home machine is wearing the contact of the CEME out faster - arching and pitting,
than the Sirai is wearing. And the Sirai has 3 contacts so that as one wears out, the wires can be
moved to the previously unused contact. (Thanks to erics for bringing this "feature" up.)

However, the Sirai is not UL approved, presumably because of the open contacts. The same features
of the Sirai, in a UL approved package can be had from a Parker pressurestat. Now, complaints I've
seen on the web mention that the Sirai tends to fail via a hardening of the membrane. How long
this takes is unknown to me and the complaint had to do with commercial multi-group machines
left running 24/7.

Bob

[CafSuperCharged]

[...] The Sirai has 30A contacts, while pressurestats like the CEME have 15A contacts.
This means the typical home machine is wearing the contact of the CEME out faster - arching and pitting,
than the Sirai is wearing.

You've got a point for the US market. Here in Europe we have no 110V (60c/s) it's all 220V~240V (50Hz).
A 2000W heater at 110V has some 18A switch load attached, whereas the same 2000W at 230V only has 8.7A to be switched.
Looking at machine specs, generally, heaters are much less Watts. Anyhow, the CEME would not pose any problem whatsoever over here.

In the US, you could look at the type of machine. HX machines, single large boilers and commercial machines will operate at the edge of the CEME specs, because they will have relatively powerful heating elements (with the CEME limit at 110V being 1650W).
We must be aware that we need to look at the load only that is switched by the pressurestat though, as e.g. the pump is not switched by it.
In these machines, the pressurestat regulates temperature by regulating pressure and one aspect of choosing a pressurestat would be the deadband. From discussions on this forum, I had the impression the Sirai was considered as better in terms of deadband and repeatability (overlooking the US Amps issue). Probably, in reality, repeatability isn't better at all.

This gets me to the dual boiler situation I was writing about. In the dual boiler machine, the brew boiler is thermostat operated. There is no vapor/steam/saturation and its temperature is regulated by a thermostat (classical, electronic or PID). In prosumer dual boiler machines the brew heater will be considerably under 1000W. In here the steam boiler is another case. To keep the entire machine under the US 15A domestic limit, the second heater will be such, the entire machine stays under that 15A limit - or 1650W including pump and electronics. Here a CEME pressurestat would do fine. If we now would assume the Sirai to have better consistency (repeatability and deadband), then we could still argue we do not need that because we are only talking about steam boiler regulation.

In the Andreja Premium, the whole thing is solved differently even. The CEME switches a relay which switches the heater. Total cost lower than Sirai without relay. I replaced the CEME by a Jaeger when I needed to replace the vacuum breaker valve (aged O-ring), but the CEME was doing fine still. Retrospectively, I am not sure I needed to have done this.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[cannonfodder]

Quite often the machines with the smaller pressurestats like the CEME use them to drive a SSR (solid state relay) instead of being directly connected to the heating element. Some of the smaller machines will direct connect the CEME to the heating coil. I have two machines with Sirai's and one with a Parker, no issues after a couple years of daily use. The big pressurestats like the Sirai do make a noticeably louder click when the contacts drop. Some people find it annoying but it is no louder in a quiet room than a big analog clock going tic-toc. After a while it becomes white noise and you don't even notice it.

[BobS]

In the Andreja Premium, the whole thing is solved differently even. The CEME switches a relay which switches the heater. Total cost lower than Sirai without relay. I replaced the CEME by a Jaeger when I needed to replace the vacuum breaker valve (aged O-ring), but the CEME was doing fine still. Retrospectively, I am not sure I needed to have done this.

Thanks Peter (and Dave) I'd forgotten that point, so there are milliamps, not amps, flowing through the
contacts. That's another disadvantage for the Sirai as heavy contacts like it has usually depend upon
both wiping action and current flow to keep the contacts from oxidizing. Though I suspect in the
Sirai, the wiping action will probably be enough as it's quite frequent.

But, I wouldn't discount replacing the CEME after a period of time. The membrane that flexes may be
of a material that hardens over time, like the Sirai. How long it takes until failure is the question.
And on a machine that's a few years old replacing it while doing other work seems like the correct preventive maintenance strategy. Of course that's not just applicable to the CEME. Funny thing is
I did the exact thing last night - replaced the CEME with a Jager while replacing the vacuum breaker
valve. I'll be rebuilding the group head over the weekend as the lever started an occasional leak.

On the dual boiler issue, as you point out the US has the 15A limit. I'd suggest there might be a
need for better control of the steam boiler because it will run out faster. Part of that is made up
by running at a higher pressure. But as you point out the heater will be smaller. Which will make
the recovery time longer - less energy available to bring the water up to pressure. And, if the
steam boiler is smaller than an equivalent HX boiler setup, then it's a bigger issue as there's less
reserve capacity.

While I've not followed the Expobar Brewtus discussions in detail, I have noted that there was mention
on the Dalla Corte mini about steam running out fairly quickly. The VBM dual-boiler may also end up
with the same issue - 915 W heater (if I recall that correctly), and a smaller steam boiler.

So it seems if one could bring on the heater in a more intelligent fashion, it might help maintain the
steam pressure for a longer period. But, would it be long enough to be worth the extra expense?

And that really is not meant to detract from your point of the probable waste of using a Sirai over
a more common pressurestat. But it's does point out a possible benefit to adding a PID or other,
perhaps fuzzy logic, controller to the steam boiler in a double boiler machine. Again, without some
testing, the more expensive solution may be nothing more than marketing fodder.

Bob

[CafSuperCharged]

But, I wouldn't discount replacing the CEME after a period of time. The membrane that flexes may be of a material that hardens over time, like the Sirai. How long it takes until failure is the question.
And on a machine that's a few years old replacing it while doing other work seems like the correct preventive maintenance strategy. Of course that's not just applicable to the CEME. Funny thing is I did the exact thing last night - replaced the CEME with a Jager while replacing the vacuum breaker valve.

I keep forgetting to listen - the coffee setup is in the music room and the computer in the study - but think the Jaeger actually is rather quiet whereas the CEME was definitely present (Never heard a Sirai, but considering the mass that may be involved it no doubt is a bit louder than the CEME).

On the dual boiler issue [...] I'd suggest there might be a need for better control of the steam boiler because it will run out faster. Part of that is made up by running at a higher pressure. But as you point out the heater will be smaller. Which will make the recovery time longer - less energy available to bring the water up to pressure. And, if the steam boiler is smaller than an equivalent HX boiler setup, then it's a bigger issue as there's less reserve capacity.

We agree here: in a dual boiler, compared to HX, each boiler is smaller (if using the same size body). Plus in the US market the 15A (1650W) limit may pose an issue regarding ability to keep up with serious steam usage.
Positioning question for these machines: is a dual boiler targeted at espresso gourmet's that do an occasional milk drink and certainly not in back-to-back series, or is it targeted at milk-drinkers with a discerning coffee taste (or demand for convenience - not switching / waiting between temperatures).

So it seems if one could bring on the heater in a more intelligent fashion, it might help maintain the steam pressure for a longer period. But, would it be long enough to be worth the extra expense?[...] point out a possible benefit to adding a PID or other, perhaps fuzzy logic, controller to the steam boiler in a double boiler machine. Again, without some testing, the more expensive solution may be nothing more than marketing fodder.

I have two doubts here.
One, implicit through the debate has been pressurestat precision. The factor that comes in here is "deadband": the pressure difference between switch-on and switch-off. I once searched for pressurestat specs and seem to remember there were actually no differences in deadband specs. I monitored the CEME frequently (it actually allows adjustment of the deadband) and narrowed it down a tiny little bit (being warned not to damage its internals when adjusting). The Jaeger and Sirai, if I remember well from that research do not allow deadband adjustment. The Jaeger is comparable to the CEME in terms of precision and deadband. BTW, I compared the built-in manometer with a serious instrument attached to a PF and they were spot-on. Corollary to this I get the impression that (a US cultural thing?) it is felt the bigger, more expensive, thing must be better. But then I'd point out to the history of e.g. the Sirai that must go back to the days before (solid state) relays were introduced into the designs. I'd like to think the Sirai's size/weight is related to the Amps it must switch in large commercial machines without relays.

Two, is a fundamental question of physics (that I do not feel competent to answer and invite others to treat here). During idle, in the PTV model (pressure/temperature/volume), the steam boiler during idle would be constant V and pressure and temperature have a direct relation. However the boiler is not completely filled with liquid and I assume a saturated "phase" here. If I remember well, in saturation there were some exceptions in the PTV model, but that is long time ago. For me a question here is if the choice for a pressurestat is an implicit safety thing (even though there is a safety valve on the boiler), or if the choice is because in saturation pressure changes are felt sooner than temperature changes, so a pressurestat with deadband comparable to a thermostat would give more precise regulation of both pressure and temperature. (Or do thermostats simply have a wider deadband, relatively?) So, with deadband on pressurestats being relatively narrow, certainly when translated into temperature, my fundamental point is if introducing a (pressure?) PID is any good in a steam boiler. Now all this reasoning may apply to idle state, but it becomes more complex when opening the steam valve. Considering the small steam boiler in a dual boiler machine and relatively low capacity in the heater, you would want the heater to come on immediately when opening the steam valve. I tested this on my Andreja Premium (with non-standard Jaeger pressurestat): waited for the heater to come on, immediately after it came off I opened the steam valve and the heater almost instantaneously came on again.

If the latter can be generalized to other machines with smaller steam boilers (in a HX machine the entire boiler is the steam boiler) and less powerful heaters, then the phenomenon that started this thread must be considered a case of "laws of physics".

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

P.S. parallel threads started recently on VBM DoubleDomo and lack of steam stamina interfered with my reasoning here.

[BobS]

First my apologies to Ted. Seems this, went into a direction that's related, but no longer helping with
his decision.

I have two doubts here.
One, implicit through the debate has been pressurestat precision. The factor that comes in here is "deadband": the pressure difference between switch-on and switch-off. I once searched for pressurestat specs and seem to remember there were actually no differences in deadband specs. I monitored the CEME frequently (it actually allows adjustment of the deadband) and narrowed it down a tiny little bit (being warned not to damage its internals when adjusting). The Jaeger and Sirai, if I remember well from that research do not allow deadband adjustment. The Jaeger is comparable to the CEME in terms of precision and deadband. BTW, I compared the built-in manometer with a serious instrument attached to a PF and they were spot-on. Corollary to this I get the impression that (a US cultural thing?) it is felt the bigger, more expensive, thing must be better. But then I'd point out to the history of e.g. the Sirai that must go back to the days before (solid state) relays were introduced into the designs. I'd like to think the Sirai's size/weight is related to the Amps it must switch in large commercial machines without relays.

I have a bit of trouble with the concept of "deadband precision" as a pressurestat is a rather crude
analog device dependant upon materials that change over time as they age, and even changes during
manufacturing, due to material tolerances. And, the overall pressure range that can be adjusted is
fairly limited from the small sample I've seen, at least on the Jaeger I have. So the terms - precision
and deadband, seem rather relative to me when discussing pressurestats, due to there is no discussion
of tolerances nor, other than your investigation, no real data concerning the comparable devices.

You're corollary is somewhat correct. Indeed I find it interesting to find out why a particular machine has
been purchased, mainly as I seem to always choose entirely other reasons for my choices. One example
is my current quandary about upgrading the from my Andreja, now going on 3 yrs old. I have been
seriously considering a Salvatore (but am a bit more swayed by the Dalla Corte), because of the
internal build quality vs the typical prosumer machine. So, yes - bigger, more expensive, and let's not
forget - lots of brushed stainless or chromed, tends to override how does the machine function?

And both the CEME and Sirai are designed to switch fairly heavy amperage. The CEME is designed for
15A at 230V (don't have it with me at the moment, but it's what I recall). The Sirai is designed to
switch 30A at 230V. Most commercial machines have 2KW or larger heaters in them. Even the CEME
is way over-specced for switching a Solid State Relay. To handle the typical SSR, a current spec. of
1A for the contacts should be sufficient. Or for a large safety margin, make it 3A. So technically, they're
both way overrated. Still, the SSR's are rated at 25A, so one could say they are overrated as well.

Two, is a fundamental question of physics (that I do not feel competent to answer and invite others to treat here).

Sorry, I can't shed any type of information of this aspect of the discussion.

Bob

[CafSuperCharged]

First my apologies to Ted. Seems this, went into a direction that's related, but no longer helping with his decision.

Major culprit on my side. Anyhow, a debate between two Andreja (HX) owners might help.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[HB]

First my apologies to Ted. Seems this, went into a direction that's related, but no longer helping with his decision.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, he hasn't logged in since November 16, 2005.

[BobS]

I saw this link to Paul Pratt's page on another post and thought it would be useful for completeness to add it here - www.espresso-restorations.com/p-stats.html.

The CEME can only switch 10A, though Paul states that he would feel better with a 6A limit. From his details, it seems a CEME, Mater, or maybe a Jaeger would, for home use, be preferable to a Sirai as the Sirai's deadband changes as the membrane hardens over time. There is a rebuild kit for the Sirai, which could help offset the initial cost.

At the bottom of his page, though not referenced, it looks like Paul took apart a CEME that had too much current run through it.

Bob